"True followers will do their homework, others don't.  It's as simple as that.  do they let someone tell them what to believe or did they discover it on their own?  Do they answer to doctern or God?

True followers will discover on their own and answer to God.  The others will let someone else through doctern tell them what to believe."

1.  I imagine you are not claiming everyone who disagrees with you does so based purely on doctrine they have not studied, and I will proceed on that assumption.

2.  Your method of verification is circular at the root.  You have given no coherent answer as to how you can verify your truth over others whom have studied as rigorously as yourself, whom are as intelligent as yourself, and whom are using the same methodology as yourself.  You think you are 'special' because you think your own internal revelation is more truthier (haha) than alternate points of view.  You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that you have no way to objectively or externally show your truth claims are more valid than any other metaphysical truth claim, and you do not admit your position is subjective, illogical and unfalsifiable even though you cannot show that it is objective, logical or falsifiable.

You say you are right because you are right.  You never move beyond that, you just change language.

Greg Albrecht had this to say when a Christian believer asked him a question on the same topic... maybe this will clarify, i agree with his response, though I'm not sure if I agree with one part, unless he's referring to God knowing what we're about to do, but turning the other way so as to pretend he didn't know...:

Q. I thought I knew the answer to this question, but now I am questioning what I thought I knew because of questions I have been asked. I would be interested in hearing your understanding on the following: Do we have free will? Does God know what answer we are going to make prior to making a decision? Thank you for your valuable time. It is appreciated!

A. It may well be that you once thought you knew all there was to know about this question about human choice and God's will, but then you matured in Christ, growing in grace and knowledge, and that gradual process shed more of the Light of Christ on this topic -- you then took it to a deeper level. The issue of "God's will" or "free will" or "predeterminism" or "human choice" (among other subject headings which discuss the same topic) is that is not as easy as it might seem.

One of the problems we have with this topic is that our 21st century western culture tends to see this issue as an either/or question -- either we have a choice or we do not, either God has a choice or he does not. The historic Eastern culture, which is generally the culture in which the various human authors of the Bible lived, and were inspired by God, tends to see this issue as both/and. That is, there are many issues about which both God and man have choices.

For example, consider the parenting of a teen. As most parents know, at least in hindsight, there are a number of ways for a parent to encourage a teen to make the right decision. A parent can influence their teenager to make the right choice by offering incentives for that right choice. At other times a parent may also realize that they need to be careful not to put too much pressure on their teen, and back away, because pressure may drive them the opposite direction. And there are times when parents have realized a heightened sense of alienation in their teen, and, because they want their teen to make the right choice, actually appear to encourage the teen in the "wrong" choice, thinking that the teen will reject the wrong choice, simply because Mom or Dad support the idea, and the teen may (according to some theories, as least) actually make the right choice for the wrong reasons! That last option is dicey -- but I happen to know that it has been tried with some success! I am not advocating any of the above, just explaining what I know to be reality!

The question is -- given the background, and the various positions that a parent may take, how much of a choice does a teen actually have? While our earthly parenting schemes and techniques are obviously a flawed metaphor of our perfect heavenly Father, the example raises the issue of choice -- how much choice does a teen have, given the incentives that are offered, and the reverse psychology the parents may be employing?

I understand our relationship with God, in terms of choice as this: God gives us choices. He does not force us. He allows us to make the wrong decisions, even though it will cause us and others harm. Apart from this basic biblical logic (as I see it) we are left adrift when attempting to understand why God "allows" horrible things to happen -- anything from warfare, disease, torture, rape, molestation, etc. He could stop all evil -- but he does not -- because he allows all humans choice. He could intervene -- and while we are more aware of the times when he doesn't -- there are many times when he does intervene, to confound what might have been -- and in such a case we could say that he didn't allow the full consequences of human choice to be played out. I believe he does act in such ways, and I believe that the vast majority of the time, when he does, we simply have no idea that he did.

A certain Dean of Students of a college once had a sign on his desk reminding students who had willfully run afoul of policies: "I do not have the right to deny you the consequences of your actions." I believe God has the right to deny us the consequences of his actions. I believe that there are times when he does deny us the immediate consequences of his actions, but most of the time, I believe that he does not. If we believe that God exists, and that he is a loving and merciful God, there is no other explanation for the world in which we live. Of course, in the spiritual realm, he has taken all the steps necessary, in Christ and by grace, so that we would be denied the spiritual consequences of our actions.

What does God foreknow? This issue has a number of permutations. The biblical terms upon which various systematic theologies are brought to bear (perhaps better stated -- through which biblical terms and passages are filtered) are terms like foreknowledge, predestine, election. What is called five-point Calvinism (based on the doctrinal acronym T-U-L-I-P, which stands for Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints) is the idea that God predestines everyone who has ever lived, or ever will live, to be either "saved" or "lost" -- it's all predetermined.

An old joke is told about a five-point Calvinist, who "accidentally" fell down a flight of stairs. After a hard landing at the bottom of the stairs, relieved to see he had no broken bones, he dusted himself off, saying, "Am I glad that's over!"

That thinking is applied to biblical verses, and guess what? What the person doing the investigating and studying "already knew" is what comes out of the biblical verses! I reject five-point Calvinism, because again, it does not allow for what I understand as clear biblical teaching about human choice.

On the other hand, the Bible clearly shows that human beings, left to themselves, will always choose against God (somewhat like a sullen, alienated teen!) -- see Romans 8:7. So what kind of a choice is that, one might ask? When we carefully examine the gospel, we might conclude that only those whom God draws, only those whose spiritual blindness he heals, only those to whom he reveals himself, really have a "choice" as some might define choice -- and God must first soften the heart of an otherwise God-rejecting human nature for us to have that real choice.

What does God foreknow? Ultimately, we can say that God foreknows himself. God foreknew Jesus from the foundation of the world, he foreknew his plan, he foreknew how all things would work out (in general) -- he foreknew the corruption and sin which humans would bring to the earth -- after all, he created us! What does God not foreknow? I believe that he has chosen not to know specific actions that we, his created children, will take. I believe he has chosen, as a part of who and what he is, not to see in advance all of our specific actions and behaviors. He has chosen to give us the power of choice. Again, one might say, well, doesn't he have a good idea of what we will do? Isn't it like, to go back to the example of parenting, a parent putting a pre-school age child in a room filled with candy and chocolate, and then leaving the room, watching through the window? God has created us. He knows our frame. He knows our nature. He knows our limitations. He is not surprised or shocked by what we do.

no, I'm not claiming that

I have given many a clear road to any focus they'd like to persue with me on that front.  Few have taken the offer.  i cannot go futher until you tell me what focus you'd like to persue.  i believe i had meaded it out for you to do so. 

I never said and have actually claimed contrary to your assumption that i think my own internal revelation is more... heh.. truthier than alternate points of view.  i have said... and I'll say it for the 21st time, that i'm here to challenge what I know... that right there claims contrary to your assumption. 

I refuse to acknowlege that I have no way to objectively or externally show my truth because no one has directly challenged any specific aspect of my truth, or if they have, they ahve not given me a direction of topic as to what they would accept if in fact my understand were true.  Those who have have seen how well i back myself up.  Those who haven't continue to assume I can't. 

I follow your lead, I don't lead these conversations.  I will go in any direction you'd like to go with our conversations.  if that's in a loop, so be it.   I'd rather make progress. 

Cap, you've used that same 'reasoning' on almost every point people have brought up.  I don't know that I've seen you use external or objective methods of verification on any single theistic belief so far.  That is why I said we've been over this before.  Every time someone asks you a question about your theism it boils down to that point and you claim we aren't listening.  We're listening, but our standards of evidence demand something objective and external to verifiy a belief.  You claim you have that verification, but you have yet to show a single instance where that is the case regarding your theism, and it isn't like no-one has brought it up in this monster thread.  I've personally brought it up in, what, 30 posts? 

I'm not even trying to get you to prove your belief is objectively true (because I don't think you can), I'm just trying to get you to admit why you can't claim your belief is true beyond your own subjective response.  You believe because you want to believe, there isn't anything deeper.  This isn't exactly a new problem though, a rational atheists main problem with theism is usually the fact that it cannot be shown to be any more true than all the other random supernatural claims made by billions of humans throughout history.

"True followers will do their homework, others don't.  It's as simple as that.  do they let someone tell them what to believe or did they discover it on their own?  Do they answer to doctern or God?

True followers will discover on their own and answer to God.  The others will let someone else through doctern tell them what to believe."

What is happening when the formatting gets screwed up, and it won't let me edit a post?  Just a bug in the forum?

Hmm.  When it happens to me though it always removes the option to edit the post, so I'm not able to do anything to it.  Oh well.

ok, I see where I was missing you I think.  yea, I think you're taking it much much deeper and further than i was.  Also much further than it needs to be. 

Yes, i agree with you that our choices are determined by pre-existing things... This however doesn't mean you don't have free will.  It's way beyond the free will concept. 

My point is the choice concept.  You make a choice (period).  The fact that you make a choice regardless of it being determined by pre-existing things is free will. 

the fact that you mentioned, "...our choice mechanism doesn't have to take into account of things like people making threats to punish us if we don't decide the way they want us to."  is exactly what I was referring to and nothing more. 

In my point, it's in reference to God.  Many religions will try to swade you by saying, "you must do a God says or burn in hell" when in fact that is no where supported Biblically.  It is taking the concept of grace through Christ way out of context and completely missing the point of Christ's ministry to begin with. 

which ultimately brought the point of the topic on a tangent.

I was keeping it simple.  At least trying to.  The concept I was trying to get across was the simple point i quoted from you above in regards to God.  It's strange, but i feel by taking it in the direction you did, you were the one that brought it through complicating factors that had nothing to do with not being controlled by another being, but controlled by environmental happenings around you that make you the person you are. 

These 2 concepts are completely unrelated.  To take it as far as, people can take free will from you by giving you drugs or looking at environmental or surrounding happenings to cause a choice to happen is beyond the point of a being making the choice for you and is irrelevent to the point. 

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that you like to take every angle and dig down deep... it's how i came to know Christ.  However, there are certain situations such as this one where it brings the topic way beyond where it needs to be and completely off the point.  This is why it took me until now to really understand why you were missing what i was saying.  I'm sorry for that.

well, from what I see in this post.  I completely agree with your concept of free will to the degree that you brought it.  I'm sorry for the confusion.

I see what you're saying, but do you see why I missed your "simple point'?  do you see that you brought it to a completely different level than it needed to be on or was on?  It originated with the idea that God gives us free will and I defined it as he will not make your choices for you.  I  feel I made that pretty clear... instead of clarifying that it makes sense in that way as you did here, you decide to take irrelevent concepts into the topic such as influences of choice when choice by itself was the concept at hand.  from there, if you wanted to delve into choice and discuss exactly what affects choice and how much control we have by ourselves over it compared to specifics like intelligent beings vs environmental, then we can go there.

Again, i'm sorry I missed what you were saying, but my mind was focused on trying to keep it simple.  Do you see where I'm coming from now?  I hope this post closes this confusion and opens another detailed focus... if you want to go further into the concept of choice and the extent of choice in our own control, I'm fine with that now understanding where you were trying to take it.

Next time, instead of getting frustrated... stop... take a step back.. and see if your approach really is focused on the point or not.  This time it wasn't.

I'm starting to feel like that indian pic you have... did you read anything I wrote? 

Ok, we'll try again

How can you show your beliefs are true and an alternate religions beliefs are false?

I don't think you should need a specific case to answer the question.  But if you do:  Muslims say humans gain salvation through Allah.  You say the path to salvation is through Jesus.  (Without arguing about Allah really being God, please don't try to make it cute, you know my intent).

Ok.  These two religions have mutually exclusive methods for salvation.  If you are a Muslim, that denies Christian savlation.  If you are a Christian, that denies salvation through Islam.

*Objectively*, how can we discern which is correct and which is incorrect?

1.  Both have billions of followers.

2.  Both use ancient holy books with some historical truth and unverifiable claims of miracles.

3.  Both have scholars who are prepared to defend their faith by a lifetime of learned study.

4.  Both are willing die for their belief.

5.  Both tend to be made up of 'good' people.

6.  Both claim divine revelation and knowledge.

7.  Both claim a personal relationship with the creator of the universe.

8.  Both claim that the creator intercedes on behalf of his followers, even today.

9.  Both made drastic changes to the morality of the time, changes we now consider, 'good' in a typical western nation.

10.  Both tend to spread by giving birth to new members and by sending preachers out to win converts.

11.  Etc.

I cut it here though you pointed out a lot of similarities between the 2 followings.  Don't make it cute?  By doing what?  Telling you that Allah and the Christian God are the same God?  That is true btw. 

There are many angles I could take on this.  I'm glad you specified the question for me.  I'll take ONE OF MANY reasons and we'll go from there.  The reason why I emphasized ONE OF MANY is because i don't want you to assume that this is my one and only reason for not following the Muslim religion.

Muslims, though they don't believe Jesus Christ is the way to salvation accept him as a powerful prophet.  A huge question that pops up in my mind then is;  if this is true that he is a powerful prophet according to Muslims, how do you explain all that he said about himself and his relationship with God a.k.a.  Allah.  Both religions believe that prophets are not liars, especially powerful prophets.  In order for Jesus to have been a powerful prophet for the Muslim faith, he ultimately would have to be a liar as well because he claims much more than just being a prophet.  He also said not to believe in others after him who claim to be the way to salvation.  Muhammad came roughly 600 years after Jesus Christ. 

No, your answer is exactly what I expected, I didn't expect more and I stopped being frustrated a long time ago.  Butter is having an identical conversation with Fonzie right now in another thread, and you both say the same thing, you're just more careful not to stick your foot in your mouth.  You dance around uncomfortable ideas, Fonzie just holds his breath and pushes through them...you are both avoiding though.

You have no objective way to show your beliefs are more valid than a Muslims.  You don't even know enough about the Koran or Muslim belief to know if it quotes Jesus but you "Know" it is wrong.  Just like most Muslims don't know anything about the Bible but they "Know" it is wrong.  Your only argument at this point is to tell me to spend a great deal of time studying the documents, and I will find a valid reason.  Which, incidently, is why I listed number 3.  

The fact that you have the nerve to tell me I can find objective truth by studying both beliefs in depth is...I'm not sure what it is.  Blinkered? Literally billions on both sides will swear they are correct, based on 'evidence'.

Any excuse you can think of to show how the Koran is false, a Muslim can 'refute'.  And any excuse a Muslim can think of to show how the Bible is false, a Christian can 'refute'.  Why?  Because you both use a standard of evidence that is based on subjectivity, and is not open to objective falsification.  It is just as impossible to show 'true' Muslim why he is wrong as it is to show a 'true' Christian why they are wrong.

Why does this matter?  It matters because you both claim to be objectively true, but you cannot both be objectively true, because your beliefs are contradictory.  To me, as an atheist, that is just another signpost pointing to the hypothesis that you are both wrong.

And it is worse than this, it isn't just Christians vs. Muslims on the idea of salvation.  It is every single one of the millions (billions?  Trillions?) of religious ideas that have existed over the course of humanity, and are mutually contradictory to all others.  

Naturally, like every other monotheist in history, you have the arrogance to believe you know the one true way where untold billions behind, beside and in front are deluded.

If you have evidence to my original question, please get on with it.  Explain how I can tell which path to salvation is correct, objectively.

Interesting you think I'm avoiding by telling you to research the exact topic that would reveil whether my following was false or not.  I'm sorry you feel that these are uncomfortable ideas.  I'm more than comfortable talking to you about anything.  But as I said, you need to pull some weight in the conversation too.  The easy way out when you dont' get the answer you want is to say I'm avoiding.  If I really am, tell me what i missed and make me face it then.  otherwise, stop with the excuses and start doing some research. 

Ok, what objective way would you expect one to show you if they in fact were in the truth?  By this I mean you, someone who doesn't believe in either and yet is asking which one to follow.  What would you accept as "objective"?

I believe the wording was not sure.  It was in reference to not remembering and not necessarily not knowing.  It's funny, you seem to expect me to remember every speck of my learning as if that's a normal thing for a human to remember through their lifetime. 

Muslims also know the Quran is the living breathing word of God like we believe that Jesus is the living breathing Word of God.  They also know that God has not spoken to anyone before or since Muhammad, which right there brings up some big questions in my head.

OR... spend a small amount of time doing some basic research and then we can actually have a discussion with information that you have found.  I don't know where you think I'm expecting you to suddenly find something that will give you a valid reason... for... uh believing I assume you're getting at. 

but when they are asked to step out of their comfort zone and compare their following to another and have to face why they believe theirs holds more water, do they do that and what happens if they do? 

I asked you to find information about the sources... where in this do i say you can find all your objective truth in that one "focused" topic?  Of course each side has 'evidence'.  What you and I need to do is discuss the evidences.  I'm trying to help you along so this isn't a one sided conversation... or are you telling me you have enough knowlege of each to discuss.  if so, please put out a detailed peice of information we can start discussing on.... Do you know who Muhammad was?  I'm ready when you are.

So you have experience in this??? My guess is not.  Because the only time i've ever seen the outcome your describing above is when one side in any conflict starts avoiding and giving the runnaround because they either don't know the answer or can't face the incriminating truth that their understanding is flawed. 

I know stories of Muslims, one in particular who was put on a mission becasue they were a well versed scholar and could read well to ultimately disprove the Bible against the Quran.  That particular Muslim is now a Muslim following Christ.  This Muslim was as you call a 'true' Muslim and very smart, but when challenging the Bible, read things in comparison that the Quran could not support and weren't congruent with what he researched. 

This coming from someone who refuses to lift a finger in an effort to prove me wrong when they're so sure of it.

Any true Christian knows we can't both be objectively true.  Atheists think they're objectively true as well.  Sadly I have to say, they've failed so far in that aspect as well.  Atheists and other religions can't all be objectively true can they? 

and if you're willing to discuss, there are particular differences about the Christian faith that have never been a part of other faiths.  

Let's start with that instead then. 

all religions that i know of ask you to seek out God and when you find him, you have to please him with works according to what this god asks.  With that, as long as you keep that god happy, you will be rewarded somehow.

Christianity teaches that God came to us.  Without special works, He said he wants to be with us.  We dont' have to do works to please God and if anyone seeks God, God will find you.  Love is what is taught not works, Grace is what is given to us from God, no reward for special works. 

The Christian God is also the only god of any religion to suffer for His followers so that they might be with him taking all their sins on Himself. 

Let's see where this goes. 

I'll say it again.  The only reason I believe I understand the one true way is because i have done the homework and researched it and still do so.  I also always challenge what i know and tell others to challenge my understanding.  Your defense of teling me that I'm like everyone else does nothing because I know you know nothing of what i know because you haven't made the effort to find out.   
You can believe what you want because unless you're willing to hear it, the truth cannot be told to you.  Whether that truth is what you have or what I have or what the Muslims have, it doesnt' matter if you're not willing to hear any of it. 

Everyone's happy in a truth they think they know and run from anything that might break that ignorance.  I find comfort in knowing that when people challenge my understanding and fail, that the truth I think I know is in fact real. 

You're still looking for that one phrase answer that's going to solve everything and yet you were just criticizing people who do that in religion.  Are you in politics?  If not, you should consider that direction in life.  You'd do well.

Ok, first start looking at Muhammad, I'll give you specifics.  Who was he?  You will find that he grew up in the Judeo-Christian belief.  How did he come to know the word of God as the Quran that was written up by Him.  You will find that it was said to be forcefully put on him by an angel and that he never had any direct contact with the alleged god.  How did he start preaching the word and what was his motiviation?

Now look into Judaism.  It's where Christianity stems from.  We all know it's Jesus that started Christianity, but based on Jewish belief, therefore, we have to find a source for the Jewish belief.  So far, i haven't found a person to be the culprit.  Some have tried to suggest it could be this writing or that, but have no objective reasoning to conclude such except minor parallels to with the same degree of similarities that they dismiss the Bible with for being true in history and geology. 

Once you research Muhammad and find out who he was and how he came to know the Quran, I would expect you'd have a lot of questions as to the validity of the whole thing.  One person vs. many encounters in Christianity for one. 

You're looking for that path to salvation.  You don't know true Christianity do you.  If you did, you'd know that the path to salvation takes years, not minutes.   Sure, you can pray to God and "get saved".  but to understand what you just asked for truly takes years.  Ask anyone who did not find Christ in a denominational or docternal way. 

I am dead serious about absurd claims. You are so focused on my delivery that you cant see that my ridicule has a purpose. It is to get you to be introspective without your cheer leading glasses on to see that the reality is that you have no objective way to demonstrate, replicate or falsify your claims.

AGAIN, give it any name you want, call it any deity you want from any religion you want, past or present, and you end up with the same absurd claim. An invisible brain with no brain, no cerebellum, no neurons, no location that is everywhere and nowhere at the same time, with magical super powers meddling in the affairs of humans.

That is what god/s claims are. Your pet god is not special and you are in the same boat as any other deity claim in human history.

Sure, that's a theory.  It literally squashes the geographical location theory and that was the point.

A difficult question?  Alright, how about why follow Christianity in countries like China or surrounding countries, some that will let you follow anything but Christiantiy and all that have followings that promise a better life after death?  Many of those countries have terrible consequences for following Christianity and allow you to choose anything else.

The followup question then could be why just Christianity?  what's so significant about Christianity that it's specifically banned from the country and not other followings?

Right... I understand your purpose and what is behind your ridicule... I have tried the same approach on you... the funny thing is, just like I'm asking you, you're asking me for evidence... I'm asking you for reasoning... I know you can prove to me that the universe is a thing... what's the reasoning behind assuming it was not created by an intelligence besides your own personal point of view? 

I have attempted to present you evidence... you can't grasp evidence beyond something physical and the only evidence you've asked me for is illogical to consider whether God exists or not. 

e.g.  You're a moron if you think meta-physical DNA is obtainable in a physical manner.  It doesn't flow with logic to ask for such a thing, especially seeing as none of the believing world has ever claimed the existance of meta-physical DNA.  I've asked you in the same manner to present me a graviton so that I know gravity is what you think it is.  You effectively ignored the request even though it was as logical as yours. 

Do you see my point yet?  and are you willing to progress beyond the strawman theories?

And Cap,

The universe is mostly violent and uninhabitable. And for every one of the 6 billion humans that are alive, there are googles of sperm that do nothing, that end up in a condom, or on someones belly, or on a bed sheet, or down someone's throat, or get expelled with urine. And for every human born, there are trillions of eggs that become periods.

And for every tree that grows tall there are far more acorns that rot and do nothing. MOST ATTEMPTS AT BIOLOGICAL LIFE FAIL, and throughout evolution 99% of the biological life in biological history HAS GONE EXTINCT!

Cockroaches and bacteria OUTNUMBER HUMANS.

OUR SUN will eventually expand and fry the planet if a meteor or comet doesn't kill us off first. To say this is the workings of a non-material invisible brain is not only absurd, but insulting and reduces nature to comic book status.

You are not special and neither is your pet claim. Your god will die when there are no longer anyone to pass down to the next generation when humans go extinct. I am sorry you don't want to face reality.

YOU justify your absurd god claim because it is nothing more than mistaking a sense of awe or luck as being divine.

I do feel lucky but I also balance that with knowing that my luck will run out, just like the sun itself will eventually run out of fuel.

Confabulation and needless projection and anthropomorphism is all you are doing. This is all there is, when you face that you will be far better off than filling in the gap with ancient myth. The moon is not made of cheese, the earth is not flat, and the universe does not need a cognitive cause anymore than a volcano or tornado.

"Who" is merely YOU projecting human qualities on the universe which is an object. You are doing no differently than the cave painters who thought animals were gods or others in our species history that thought volcanos were gods. YOU are doing no differently than the Egyptians in their false belief that the sun was a thinking being.

To assume your position I could not call such a being caring or efficient considering how much waste goes into production, with biological life or the energy transfer in the universe and it's vastly hostile majority environment that dwarfs one blue dot that will get fried at some point.

I can only call such claims absurd in the face of reality. To face this harsh reality is not pessimistic or fatalistic. It is simply a matter of not sugar coating it or making shit up to placate one's own emotions. It frees the mind up to seek REAL answers to extend our finite ride.

I hope for your own mind's sake the light bulb goes off for you, you'll be better off ditching your superstition just like humans no longer believe the earth is flat.

maybe.  i just want to get him out of the corner and start really looking at his own understanding.  it seems to me he doesn't have much to stand on for his own sake.

According to Genesis, sin has allowed us to have a finite lifespan physically... I feel you're suggesting though that sin causes death... which isn't exactly what the Bible teaches. 

Sure, death is the consequence for sin, but does that mean that a person dies because they sinned more than the person who survives?  That's not taught anywhere in the Bible.  Is it that how a person dies is dependent on how sinful of a life they lived?  That's not taught Biblically either. 

If there is so much out there trying to kill us, then why are we still alive?  Could it be that people die because God allows things to happen naturally?  It is possible that  a follower can grasp reality to understand that people die for many reasons and not sin. anyone who takes careful study of scriptures knows this. 

If sin controls death, then would a person who tries to commit suicide really be able to kill themselves?  You could say yes because it's a sin according to some, but then what about the person who killed someone else?  That other person didn't sin, but the person who killed the other did.  Why didn't they die too? 

This again goes into the design of the universe and why things are created the way they are.  Think for a moment God designing a machine that would eventually have to function and progress on its own.  Would it be smart to allow a resourceful means of reproduction by only allowing one attempt at a time leaving room for the possibility of a system crash, or millions at a time rising the likelyhood of success dramatically, then recycle the rest once the task is complete? 

Do you only buy enough lightbulbs to cover the light fixtures in your house and expect that they'll always work or do you keep spares around just in case one goes out? 

Cap, why do keep arguing against a position that no-one here has been putting forward.?

No-one here was suggesting that 'sin causes death', your 'feeling' is wrong.

Although the well-known bit in Romans 6:23 that "The wages of sin is death" comes perilously close to asserting that.

The point is rather that so much death is inevitable due to the basically hostile 'design' of so many aspects of the universe itself, and the inevitable struggle for survival between many competing lifeforms, such as micro-organisms, which make up most of life in both numbers and sheer bulk, and include species who bring to many completely innocent individuals nasty deaths from disease.

IOW, if the Universe was 'designed' it appears to have been almost entirely 'designed' with no particular regard for the well-being of the life-forms that managed to find a tiny corner in the vastness which allowed them to emerge and evolve.

The idea that it was 'created' with us in mind implies that the creator either wanted us to suffer right from the beginning, or that he was completely incompetent, as the story of the flood seems to suggest.

The idea of sin is a lame attempt by believers in a God, who they insist is just and 'good', to justify why there is so much unnecessary suffering and injustice in the world inflicted on people by the nature of the world itself, even on innocent people, including children. It wold have been perfectly possible for an omnipotent creator to design a planet without the geological processes that lead to volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis. It is all supposed to be somehow 'our fault'.

And then there are the unnecessarily nasty bugs. 'He' really didn't have to design parasitic worms in Africa whose life-cycle involves burrowing into the eyes of children and rendering them blind in the process...

You would have some sort of argument if the main cause of death was from the direct deliberate actions of people intending to cause death and suffering. Incidental death due to poor judgement, inability to forsee the consequences of actions, would be as much God's fault as ours, in designing us with such limited reasoning and judgement, and with such strong emotional drives which so often lead us to foolish behaviour.

It is of course the old Problem of Evil, which is only a problem for those trying to argue for the existence of a wise and just God. It all makes sense, the problem disappears, the existence of such suffering is understandable, if we abandon the futile attempt to justify the nonsensical idea of such a being the ultimate source of everything.

Our Universe is a collection of stuff which is actually 'running down', in terms of running out of usable energy.

It is no more 'self-sufficient' than any other collection of matter. It is progressing through its natural process of growth and death, which is now thought to be a state where all the stars and planets are spread out through an ever expanding volume of cold dark space.

Everything in it has a finite lifetime before ending up as a scattering of cold dust or a cold lump of rock.

Nothing about it require a conscious creator, which itself would require a creator, unless you give God a special pass.

The scientific version does nor require anything to get a special pass. The latest theories of the origin of the Universe have it having net zero energy, the positive 'ordinary' energy matter and matter particles, and the negative of gravitational potential energy. 

A fresh BB could eventually be randomly triggered from one or more of the fragments of our dead one. 

Just the most infinitesimal 'twitch' in the 'right' direction would be enough, in principle, to start a cascade of effects leading to our Big Bang.

IOW, just the most infinitesimal source of energy, plus pure quantum style randomness, is all that is required. 

Everything we have observed points to consciousness of any kind requiring complex structure, extremely unlikely to simply exist or to come into existence spontaneously. Since we can be pretty confident that it is not necessary, positing God is simply an unnecessary complication, needing more explanation in itself than our Universe.