Brian37 vs Ciarin
Offline As I stated in the other thread, I do not, and hope that you dont either, take this brawl personally, if you chose to partisipate. It is not aimed at you the person, but merely the claims you put forth.
So, if you would start off by giving me a discription of what your position is, we can start from there.
Keep in mind it will get bloody(metephorically speeking). But please understand that after the match is over, we can still have a beer together(meaning we can agree on other issues and be friends outside this dissagreement).
IN THIS CORNER, IT'S THE SULTAIN OF SILLYNISS, THE EINSTIEN OF IDOCY, THE MASTER OF MORONICNESS.......BRIAN37!
IN THE OTHER CORNER, ITS THE DEFENDER OF DEITIES, THE CYBORG OF THEISM ........."CIARIN"
LETS GET READY TO MUMBLE!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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I have no idea. I don't think my religion offers explanations for my experiences. Which previous question would you like me to answer? I thought I answered them all.
ciarin.com
So you justify the murder of Christians by saying they should have worshiped the Roman cult. This makes me sad
And I knew about Polycarp before you did your little wiki search to find that out. I never said all Christians didn't want martyrdom. But comparing them to modern radical Islam is ridiculously stupid. Especially since the ancient Christians didn't try to kill anyone under Roman rule. They didn't attempt suicide attacks of the Roman Senate. They were just killed (according to you justifiably so) for refusing to worship the Emperor and the Roman cult. I can't blame them. Just look at Caligula. Who the hell would worship that guy?
Essentially with all these ancient Christianity vs. ancient pagan arguments is prove to you that Roman paganism is not worth bringing back. It was a disgusting religion. If you want to ignore evidence of the fact in Seneca, that's fine. Seneca should have tried to kill Nero. Nero lost his mind and killed his mother. Your religious tradition is depressingly abhorrent. There is literally nothing good about your religion. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you should really drop it. Be an atheist, be an agnostic, be a Buddhist. Be a part of a religion that doesn't have a disgusting past, a religion that doesn't sacrifice animals in the name of long dead gods, a religion that never practiced self-mutilation. Seriously, this is the kind of belief system that brings nothing good for you.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
I don't have to justify anything. The christians that were killed by the romans for breaking their laws were not murdered. Murder is an unlawful killing. The christians were killed according to the law at the the time.
It's not about worshipping emperors, it's about the gods of rome. Also, I didn't compare then to suicide ATTACKS, just the love for being a martyr like some of the islamic fanatics do.
It's isn't prove(sic) at all actually.
LOL, and? Your subjective opinion about someone else's religion means absolutely dick.
You have yet to provide evidence that corroborates this "fact".
You're not sorry. And my religion is perfectly fine, thank you very much. There's nothing wrong with it in the least. It's one of the most tolerant and respectful religions going around. Depsite your hang-up over some alleged ritual practice by some ancient masochists, I'm pretty sure your opinion is an ignorant and bigotted one, so you can just piss off. We've no evangelical mandates, we've no dogma that states we must be sexist and homophobic, nor do we declare others who ar enon-believers to be evil. We don't condemn people to hell, nor do we think our children have to be indoctrinated in our religion.
What is your religion that is sooooooo much better than mine?
Ok, you're going to have to provide evidence for all thes bullshit claims you're making. None of us self-mutilate in the name of our religion. None of our gods are long dead(unless you count Balder, lol). Also, I actually like animal sarcifice, so why would I want to change to be a buddhist or atheist because of that?
Come on, where's your evidence?
ciarin.com
You're satisfied with no evidence? In that case I own the Brooklyn Bridge and will sell it to you for $100 bucks.
NOW you need real evidence? Are you asking me for a deed? My deeds are anacdotal, I don't have to explain my deeds to you, just buy the bridge. ITS A BARGAN! IT'S ONLY $100 BUCKS!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Okay, do you think that the Christians should have been killed?
You are better off than me, I like shiney objects. Toast is edible, shiney objects usually make my tummy hurt.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I get a kick out of theist going after other theists. It is like wacthing si-fi fans argue over who is better "Luke SkyWalker or Captian Kirk", and I am the guy on the outside going, "Hey guys, those are just actors".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You're supporting mass murder. That shows how crazy your religion is.
None. I'm not religious
I just feel sorry for you. This pagan religion is insanely stupid. Go ahead and kill an innocent animal to please a fake deity. Enjoy a religion that used to practice self-inflicted torture. Have fun doing it. You seem like a really nice person. I'm not trying to insult you, but your religion is dumb. Just plain dumb. You don't need this worthless religion to find meaning or purpose.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
I'm satisfied with my experience as evidence. If you got a bridge to sell, me I have no money to buy it anyway. Also, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to buy a bridge even if I could afford it. The property taxes would suck, as would the maintain and repair. I think you need to come up with something better than "I have something that a few people had at one times believed was for sale and thought they could buy it cheap which shows just how gullible they are".
Why do you think I don't rely on other's anecdotal evidence for my beliefs? I don't believe in other people, I believe in myself. I trust my own opinion, my own reasoning. I don't care if some pagan thinks she can communicate with the dead, I'm not going to assume she can just because she says so. It's not as if someone came up to me, told me about germanic heathenry or Roman paganism and tricked me in to believing it.
What? where'd this come from? real evidence for what, and why do I need it?
Not really. But if you want you can come here and wash my car.
ok? so? What does this have to do with anything. I don't follow your train of thought here.
I DON'T HAVE A $100 BUCKS!
How about this, you loan me $100 and then I'll buy the bridge?
ciarin.com
I'm pro-life for the most part. I don't agree with capital punishment. I also do not have the ability to judge these christians since I was not there and I don't know them. Breaking the law of the land would warrant proper punishment though. If you didn't like the law, then you should try to get legislation enacted to change the law, or move to another country where the laws are more ameniable to your faith.
ciarin.com
Evidence? I've never supported mass murder, ever. You need to prove otherwise.
What do you believe that makes youa theist?
And I feel sorry for you.
Evidence? You know I'm going to keep asking for it everytime you make an unsubstantiated claim or an ignorant opinion, right?
What's an innocent animal? And for that matter, what's a guilty one? But anyway, you're still a hypocrite if you're not vegetarian because by the mere fact that you eat meat you're supporting the killing of INNOCENT ANIMALS!! Quick! go join PETA and ask for forgiveness!
Evidence?
MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA!! The bullshit's piling up quickly in here, god damn!
I don't need a religion at all to find meaning or purpose. But I think you're dumb, just plain dumb. You have no evidence whatsoever for all the bullshit claims you've made, nor do you even know what the fuck you'r talking about. You have no idea what I believe or what I practice. You're just an ignorant bigot.
I'm not trying to insult you though.
ciarin.com
...wow......just wow.
hey, those Poles could have just moved before the Katyn massacre or moved for anti-slaughter legislation.
Why don't the Turkey just accept Marxism to get rid of the PKK?
Or hey, the Sri Lankens can move to avoid the attacks from LTTE?
I mean it's really that simple right?
Yeah, those are rhetorical questions.
Holy pogo jumping Christ
Ask the puritans. And for that matter, you can ask any other refugee that has claimed asylum from their country that persecutes them.
I bet they were. Nice strawman.
ciarin.com
Huh? I thought...
Okay, recap. Your religious beliefs are mostly based on personal experiences. When I asked if there were plausible natural explanations for your personal experiences, I was referring to the ones that support your religious beliefs. You answered yes. Well, that's not exactly what you typed, but that was the gist of it. So, now, my question is: do you think these natural explanations are more likely? If so, why not go with them?
This is getting annoying. Are you a deist? Pantheist? Do you believe that the Bible was partly inspired by God? Do you believe that Jesus existed? Do you believe that Jesus was more than just a human?
No, that's not how it works. She's saying that her personal experiences are evidence for her beliefs, but since they're personal experiences, they can't be used to convince anyone else. If you're dealing with other people, then you need objective evidence, i.e. if your personal experiences lead you to believe that you own the Brooklyn Bridge (you've seen it, you have the documents for it, etc. except, of course, hypothetically, it's impossible for you to show the documents to anyone else.
), that's fine, but if you want to prove to someone else that you own the Brooklyn Bridge, then you need to show objective evidence.
How about if the crime was blasphemy, and the official punishment was death?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Actually they're characters. And kirk wins since he doesn't try to hit on his sister.
ciarin.com
Lmao.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I thought you meant that my religion was telling me how to interpret my experiences. They didn't, I did.
If I thought these natural explanations were more likely I would've went with them as the explanation. So, no I don't.
I'm pro-life for the most part, I don't condone capital punishment, which is why I said "proper punishment".
ciarin.com
That would be kind of weird.
Of course. You need some form of evidence or personal experience to accept a religion in the first place. You can't interpret your beliefs based on your religion if it's not already your religion.
Okay then, I think I'm satisfied for the most part (shocking). If your beliefs are based on personal experiences that you think were more likely than the natural explanations, then there's not much I can do except disagree and hope that you think about these things more, because I think the natural explanation is always right. I mean, if we could objectively prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your Gods existed and understand them using evidence, then your beliefs, would, by definition, be natural.
Alright.
Now, I want some butter and toast.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Fuck toast. I got some pizza rolls and tortilla chips.
I know, so it really comes down to because it makes you feel good, which is no more real than any other god or religious beliefs, it makes you feel good, therefore you believe it to be true, no evidence at all to back it up and is no more logical than believing in the IPU or the FSM. But hey I am coming in late to this, it's an irrational belief that you have.
Do you really?
So why aren't I still Wiccan? or Christian?
ciarin.com
Yep. Toast. With peanut butter and sliced bananas.
Like a moth to a lightbulb, if it looks like moonlight, you'll fly right into it, just because it "feels good". If you want to treat your life as one giant sugar pill, I cant stop you. But intellectual challenges through self introspection are where learning happens, not self centered placation of ones own ego.
Your gods are no more real than the Christian god or the Egyptian gods or Harry Potter. Your experience , may "feel real", but are better rooted in the mundane explanation of human psychology in that you read into these "experiences" what you want, not what is really going on. The brain is a very powerful organ and combined with intense emotions and lack of proper use of logic, one can self delude themselves into believing anything.
Your belief in your gods is caused by the same lack of proper use of logic that causes people to really think that horiscopes work.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Then why am I not still Wiccan or Christian?
ciarin.com
Let me translate for everyone, "My delusion is different, I am not in the same boat as the others".
YES YOU ARE.
Hate to burst your bubble but deity claims are all mere products of human imagination, including yours.
You bought a myth just like the ancient Egyptians, just like Hindus, and just like morons who believe that Big Foot is real.
"My rabbit's feet really work because they are white instead of brown", doesn't change the fact that life is a crap shoot and rabbits feet are nothing but a placebo.
Crossing your fingers is crossing your fingers, no matter what your label is, and is a usefull as nipples on men. A decoration may make you feel good, but it wont feed you or prevent you from going through windshield in a car crash. If you don't want to use solid logic, that is on you, I wear my seatbelt, because I am not an idiot.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Then why am I not still Wiccan or Christian?
ciarin.com
Are you a government beurocrat? You seem to love triplicate.
You are not a Wiccan or a Christian for the same reason a Muslim is not a Wiccian or a Christian, "I like what I believe".
"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a party"
You fail to realize that you smoke the same crack cocaine placebo as any other claimant of a deity. "I like what I believe".
My point to you is "SO THE FUCK WHAT?"
Claims are like sphincters, everyone has one.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ciarin, are you having fun yet ?
( ....just curious
, that's all. )
At not listening. Ciarin has explained that her unconfirmed personal gnosis is valid enough evidence for her that her gods exist. You have not experienced her UPG, which means you can't really refute anything about it. It could have been that woden actually came down and had tea with her, leaving pages and pages of historical facts and scientific facts she never knew about to confirm that she wasn't high or hallucinating. Then disintegrating them. That could all still have a natural explanation (as she may have come accross the facts subconciously throughout her life, skimming wikis or newspapers) but I can fully say, as someone who is not religious at all, that if that happened to me I'd certainly start to believe in such deities. You can call her beliefs crap if you wish, just don't think you're reasonably winning the argument when you haven't observed the same things.
Youre post doesn't address my question and is quite non-sensical, imo.
If I only believe because I like it, then why did I stop believing in 2 other religions that I like? When I christian, I LOVED IT. When I was Wiccan, I LOVED IT.
So if I only believe in a religion I like, I should still be christian or wiccan. But I'm not christian or wiccan. Which means there must be something more to my belief than merely liking it.
and pwnt.
ciarin.com
Not really. I expected better to be honest.
ciarin.com
Because you found something else that you like or believe to be true, even though you have so far no evidence to show that it's true, as such still remains as an irrational belief, just like all beliefs regarding any god or deities. Just make up fantasy. And yes I do know, however that basic topic of hte debate is that you have made a positive claim (in various other posts) regarding the deities you believe exist, yet have no evidence to back up your claim. Like someone else has posted muslims believe in islam and allah because of either cultural reasons or because it makes them feel good, just like christians, buddhists, hindus and every other spectrum of religious beliefs, that lead to irrational behavior (such as animal sacrifices and depending on how it is, most common is to offer the sacrificed animal as a burnt offering to the gods...common practice but not always) or irrational beliefs (say how women should be treated and covered up in various muslim nations)
[double posts)
Your statement has no meaning. What is Odin? It is a living creature? An inanimate object? Where would it be located? Once you define Odin, proof can be offered to show its non-existence.
Odin is a god in the Norse Pantheon. google it.
And, don't expect to disprove him, because you can't. You can't prove a negative. At least be honest about it.
ciarin.com
Are you defining "proof" to be 100% certainty?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
"1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth." - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof
ciarin.com
You believe in deities, I don't care if it is a personal belief or part of an organized religion, YOU BELIEVE IN MYTHICAL GODS AND ARE in the same boat as people who believe in virgin births and in the same boat as the ancient Egyptians who once believed that the sun was a thinking being.
Do not try to seperate yourself from other people.
"My can is red, therefore it is not a can".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hey Ciarin, you stated that you were formerly a Wiccan and ( before that ? ) a Christian. What was it about these two other religions that caused you to abandon them ? BTW I'm not asking you to prove anything or provide me with evidence ( heh heh ) regarding your religious choices, ....but if possible describe why you chose ( objectively / subjectively ) one over another.
Brian still happens to be arguing, rather then being constructive.
Lets actually make some progress here shall we? Ciarin, could you explain to us what your personal reasons are for considering your UPG less likely to be natural circumstance then divine intervention?
Here is the problem, there is no need to prove that Odin doesn't exist, there is no evidence that he does at all, as such there is no proper claim that he does exist outside of mythology, you have made a postive claim but have shown no evidence besides "I have my own personal evidence that no one else can see because I am special". Your gods don't exist, they only exist in your mind, you are no different than any other religious believer, it's still a irrational belief. No matter how you cut it. You have zero evidence for it, nothing you can present to prove it real outside of your own mind.
So you proved that the Christian God doesn't exist or that Satan doesn't exist?
Obviously spoken by someone who has never heard of Bentrand Russell's "Teapot orbiting Jupiter".
You have no clue about Occham's Razor, law of probibility or the above mentioned. And if you do, you are willfully ignorant.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Refuting arbitrary claims is a rather pointless endeavor, and it's usually impossible anyway. But we shouldn't necessarily gloss over the reason why it's usually impossible. Since the person advancing the claim sees no reason to support the claim with evidence, they can invoke as many additional arbitrary propositions as needed to ensure that you cannot disprove their original claim. That's why it cannot be disproved, not because the claim had any validity.
I could easily say "tell me where odin is and when we go there I assure you he will not be there". That's proof enough. But then you would just say "Ah, but Odin lives beyond the stars in the enchanted realm of the ethereal plain, so your proof is not proof."
You see, because you started off with a pile of shit, you can add as much shit as you want and it's still a valid pile of shit. It's more difficult for someone to sift through that shit and prove that there isn't a gold nugget in there, especially when you can keep shoveling more shit onto it.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
You realize none of those actually refute the fact that you can't prove a negative right? They only state that proving a negative is unneccessary since positive evidence must be presented in favor of what the opponent proposes.
Fact is, brian, you simply don't want to accept the fact that you can simply be completely wrong about someone's views. In this case you were because of all the assumptions you have made. Your original point was without function, as it was conceded by your opponent. You fail to understand the argument your opponent is making because you are too busy attempting to refute whichever easy to refute statements you see.
I never really accepted that all gods are one god, like the wiccans. And I didn't like that they jumbled different cultural folk traditions together along with masonry and qabbalah, mysticism, etc. And the rede doesn't sit well with me either.
Christianity I was really into, and I even went to vacation bible camp during the summer time. I loved reading the bible and making my own sermons, etc. But as I got older and studied it more amny of the things it says didn't make sense to me. Like the whole omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent god thing being illogical, contradictory bible passages, the history of how the bible came together, the sexism and homophobia etc. None of that sat well with me and my belief slowly but surely waned. After whihc I began studying other religions., including wicca which seemed to make more sense to me at the time.
ciarin.com
I only ask people to prove he doesn't exist when they claim they have evidence for his non-existence. For example:
"There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the gods you believe in, and gods in general, do not exist. "
ciarin.com
Nope.
ciarin.com
Really? Cause I have.
Nope, I know about Occam's Razor, law of probability and the above mentioned. Your argument here is a logical fallacy.
ciarin.com
I cannot tell you where Odin is because I do not have a lojack device implanted on him.
ciarin.com