the blasphemy challenge, comments from a theist
Posted on: April 26, 2010 - 1:40pm
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the blasphemy challenge, comments from a theist
hi all, I'm a Christian; I'm not here to rant or anything, but I just have 2 quick comments regarding the blasphemy challenge:
1. I really don't see why anyone would bother asking someone to give up something which they don't believe has any value and/or even exists. If there is no God, no soul, no salvation or damnation, then there's no point. Selling one's soul by blaspheming the holy spirit is, in that case, an excersize in futility. Better, I would think, simply to give the DVD's away-- especially since those who have some reluctance to take up the challenge are the very ones who, in your view, most need to have it! 2. The whole premise is based on a faulty understanding of what constitutes "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". In the context of the passage, blaspheming the Holy Spirit does not mean denying the Holy Spirit; it means giving credit to the power of evil for something that was done by the power of Good (Jesus spoke of this unforgivable sin in response to the accusation of the pharisees that he was performing miracles and casting out demons "by Beelzebub", that is, by the devil. This was a serious slur against the holy spirit through whom these works had actually been done; but not one that an Atheist can commit, not believing in either a Holy Spirit or a being known as Satan).
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Yes; that, or whatever else it is that Atheists might choose to celebrate as the Most Important Thing.
Then how did you fall off the deep end into the world of fantasy & fairy tales; or better yet Why?
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If you are an American, you can't avoid being exposed to religion in one form or another unless you were locked in your house, never interacted with people and never used money.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Really? That is quite unusual. What made you choose christianity over all the other religions you no doubt researched as thoroughly?
Well I hope you realize that if we treat anything as an ideal, as worth putting on some equivalent of an altar, it would be something like Truth, or Reason (as a way to pursue Truth), rather than your 'altar to Nothing' comment, which I hope was not meant seriously. It did come across to me as a bit ignorant/offensive, esp. when presented in the context of a list of 'faiths' and what they regard as 'holy'.
Although strictly that idea would really apply to people who are inclined to a rational, maybe sceptical, approach to understanding, as distinct from just accepting what other people tell you, or what you read in certain books. Such people are more likely to be Atheists, which as Hambydammit says , is more of a consequence of a certain type of world-view, rather than being a world-view itself, or a defining thing about an individual.
Not all Atheists, of course, are like this, there are various reasons why people don't buy into the God idea.
Reading your last response, I looks like you were assuming that since believers treat God or something like that as 'The Most Important Thing', then because we don't believe in God(s), we don't have any 'Most Important Thing', which is not a very logical conclusion.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
FS THE TROLL, I don't think YOU understand what this website is about, just to remind you, it's called THE RATIONAL RESPONDERS, and it is my understanding that the members here respond to religious posters with rational responses. So when you say "you obviously were not looking for an answer" that appears to me to be stating the obvious, the members here are here to give rational responses to obsurd claims. You also say "it was just your vain attempt to stump a christian and you've failed miserably", I really don't think anyone here wants to 'stump' a christian, if, however, they continue on with their diabtribe and troll, like you do, then the rational responders have every right to do so.
By the way, it's always struck me as an admission to absurdity etc., that apologists would call themselves APOLOGISTS, it's like saying, well, we know it's all absurd, irrational, unreasonable and downright silly and we apologise for this, neverless we will seek to convince you with all manner of obfuscation and sophistry that it is otherwise.
Yes, that's like me being an American and yet saying that I've never been exposed to democracy or capitalism because none of my family members are bankers or politicians.
Hmmm. So why Christianity then? Why did you not take to Islam? Or buddhism? Or hinduism? or etc... etc... etc...
Have you studied those religions?
No - it's more like you've never talked with Christians without knowing that they were (and they never mentioned church or God) or you never got money and read "In God We Trust" on it. In capitalism's case, you must never get money, have a job or buy things in order to completely avoid exposure to capitalism.
I will amend my statement to it being extremely difficult to avoid exposure to religion (or capitalism for that matter - there is no democracy in America).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The god they are characterizing is the god of the Bible. But certainly there are others. You say you are a Christian. Do you believe that eternal Hell is a just punishment for non-believers?
Thank you, I understood the point that you were trying to make...carry on.
Yea if you live in the US you are saturated with religion daily. Unless you just stay at home, and don't watch tv. It would seem the thing to do here, unless you really gave it some hard thought, but it's so much easier to go with the flow.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Sorry I don't do subtle well on breaks between studying for finals.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I'd say work to take away their tax exemptions, that should do the trick.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
The OT God hasn't gone anywhere. He is the same One whom Jesus called 'Abba Father', and whom he said his followers could see and know by seeing and knowing himself. The same one who so loved the world ... etc, etc (John 3:16).
It's like in the Harry Potter series: new information in the later books does not change any of the facts of what happened, but it completely alters our understanding of what actually took place.Well, I can't be sure, of course; but it seems a likely guess that you don't know that he is not in fact out to make your life miserable; and it seems reasonable to assume you do not know what there is about him that would possibly cause anyone to prefer death by torture rather than to renounce him.
I apologize. You are right, the comment was flip, and that was not my intention.
I did not mean to imply that Atheists have no Most Important Thing, but I was careless in shorthanding how it might be represented.
So you're happy worshipping a kill-crazy freak because you believe that the guys who wrote your holy book gave you a good enough reason why?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Excuse me, their are plenty of things about your jesus/god that would make me prefer death by torture than to to give myself to him, so quit your poor assumptions, we're not all pussies some of us would stand up for what is right in the face of great danger. How about let's start with the fact you have to choose between DEATH BY TORTURE, or GIVING YOURSELF TO A BAT SHIT CRAZY DIETY. The fact that death by torture, or torture at all by diety or not is even on the table is reason enough for me to dispise your god and anyone who is assosiated with and alligned with him (jesus/himself). IF you are trying to make the argument that we are talking about the "good" jesus of the gospels you won't get far. First of all Jesus is either also the god of abraham, a part of the god of abraham, or his son and alligns himself with his fathers philosophies and ways of bat shit crazyness. So making an argument about jesus' "good/kind" character is futile as Jesus' character is inherantly alligned with that of the god of abraham, so that doesn't work. I can be a great guy, If my best friend is a rapist and let him do it I am a rapist by assosiation. Second, this character jesus has 2 sides, 2 distict massively inconsistent characteristics. Your jesus seems to have a little war general in him, and it is clear in your bible that if anyone defies him he will come WITH THE SWORD. Jesus seems to like swords. Here are just some verses from the gospels painting a not to pippy Jesus, and NO I didn't go find these on some website, I wrote these ones down when I was reading the bible. There are more, and don't even get me started on revelations.
(Luke 12 49-53)
49 “I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”
(Luke 19:27)
27 Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.’”
(John 15:6)
6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned.
(Mathew 10:34)
34 Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword.
How the heck can you lie to yourself so colourfully? How can you sit their and type up an argument that Jesus is a "goog" guy (based on some of the gospels), and completely disregard the fact he either IS batshit crazy yahweh, IS a part/extension of batshit crazy yahweh, or alligns himself completely with bat shit crazy yahweh, his philosopshies and does his grunt work for him. Honestly I don't understand how your brain works. So there is a mostly nice little pippy story about this jesus character in the gospels. One that also shows other not so pippy traits of jesus. This pippy story makes the hole book worse, and pisses me off even more. It shows people will buy into any pippy story that makes them feel good. If it makes them feel good it's like the entire horrible backdrop/philosophy of the story disappears, their brain either completely disregards it or dances in never-ending non-sensical circles forever. "Oh, who cares about the rest of the book, who cares about batshit crazy yahweh and his batshit crazyness, I like a few verses about this one guy who IS batshit crazy yahweh or his son or something..." *clap clap* Dance little one Dance!!!
Holy crap dude, If I have to read "bat shit crazy" one more time I'm probably going to throw myself into on coming traffic.
You really don't know what the hell your talking about. I'm sorry, those verses you used absolutely did not prove any point, were taken blazingly out of context, or are concepts that you simply just do not understand what he was really saying.
You say you went to church for 15 years... what does that mean? Nothing. You have no understanding of the basics of what you claim to know. I work in the hospital and I am amazed to see doctors who are very smart, very educated and yet have none of the basic concepts that they should have. It's because certain concepts will never resonate with people and maybe thats why you are an atheist... because if you had any level of true biblical understanding all of your questions would have already been answered
This is what aggravates me about lots of the atheists on this forum. They are very smart, very well spoken but are not able to just be real with themselves and say; "you know what, I just don't get it". So they come up with all these cliched reasons for not believing in God; "Oh God allowed murder... God condoned incest, God tortures people in hell, blah blah blah blah".
Dude, just be real. Just be honest enough to say, "I don't get it and I don't believe". Don't come up with all this other subjective bullshit to try and convince yourself of why you don't believe.
It's funny. I haven't been on these forums for two years and you all like to pat yourselves on the back about how "free-thinking" you all are. Yet when I read the forums it's like you all have each others hands jammed in your asses and all talk for each other without any real, individual thought. Every forum is looking into the same questions that anyone, with two functioning brain cells, could understand can't be explained or grapsed by mortal humans: Why does God allow you to be born if he knows you'll go to hell, ect ect ect ect ect. Those are questions that men spend their WHOLE LIVES searching for answers and they may only have a small, flawed, understanding into the answers. Granted those are legitimate questions but just because you have all half-assed trying to understand them, given up and then come up with some inaccurate determination to the answer. Don't try and push that on other people like that is a logical or rational reason to reject any belief in God. It's an insult to peoples intelligence.
And no one actually wants an answer to any of those questions, you just want another reason why you don't believe in anything because you are not actually at peace with it.
You believe because you want to believe.
I can't force myself to believe even though I tried for a number of years.
Happy now?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
You know what, I just don't get it.
I have no idea why you believe in God. There have been times that I believed in God because I was desperate to change my life and did not see any other way. When I was very, very young I believed in God because my grandmother told me to. Then I went through puberty and my brain filled out my skull.
But why do you believe in God? Is it because you feel his presence when you believe in his presence? Is it because a gazillion people can't be wrong? Is it because we don't have a fossil of every single creature that ever lived? Is it because science doesn't, and probably won't ever, have all the answers? Is it because you don't want to make Jesus and your dead grandmother cry at the same time?
I don't get it. Why do you believe in God?
This is what the believer doesn't get. Gravity, DNA, mitosis, and entropy don't give a rats ass what the atheist or theist believe. THEY ARE empirical observations that have been tested through replication and falsification and independent verification, not based on bias or woo, but OBSERVATION.
No one should believe anything, believer or atheist. No one has to "believe". When a claim is made, you test it. If it cant be tested, then it remains a claim. The believer wants to treat our rejection of absurdities as equal to their beliefs as a 50/50 proposition.
I don't have to convince myself that the sun isn't a thinking being like the Ancient Egyptians convinced themselves FALSELY, for over 3,000 years, anymore than you have to convince yourself that Vishnu or Allah are not real.
You and I don't have to convince ourselves that Santa isn't real, but try telling a 4 or 5 year old he isn't.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Your simply wrong.
They wern't suppose to prove any other point than there are passages about this character that are questionable.
Your just wrong again. I spent alote of time trying to make sense of the bible and listening to people like you trying to explain the things I found questionable, in the end it stood strong as being inconsistant, strange, outdated, simply untrue and yes bat shit crazy. Have I ever said there are not amazingly beutiful passages in the book? No ofcourse I would never say such a thing, there are plenty of beutiful passages "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." The book has many charming parts, parts that reflect the good nature of the common man, there are however many terribly uncharming parts that also accurately reflect the nature of the common man. This contrast of "good" philosophy and wacko philosophy is seen in the Quaran aswell a book I tried/ am trying to get through as difficult and poorly written as it is. One cannot take the charming parts and disregard the un-charming ones. One must take the book as a hole, and as a hole it is very f**cked up, people differ alote on the real "message" at the heart of it. What makes you sure you got the message right. If a reasonable person reads the bible without bios or pre-conditioning never having heard of religion, this person could not make any real sense of this book, there are simply to many contradictions in the nature of the deity and his philosophies.
Rrrrrright...
WHAT? That's exactly what I say everyday of my life, here on the forum, everywhere. I don't get it. I don't get how anyone can come to a "good" god based on the stories in the bible unless they completely twist the words in the book so that theres no point in taking enyof it serious. I don't get how you can take the position of "Christian bible thumper" and not see there are also muslim quaran thumpers equally as thumpy as you, and these thumpers and those thumpers. If the quaran is the true word of god then I can assure you you are FFF**ked! Have you read the book? I don't understand how anyone who doesn't have a serious mental illness could go along with this stuff. I have no problem with "god belief" in it's pure form, but you start claiming sides, rules, laws, and you start thumping these crazy books to others, then it all just seems so blatanly silly and so evidently harmful.
I do no such thing! You know absolutely nothing of my reasons for disbelief. You say bla-bla-bla, is that your defense of the issues you mentioned prior? "Your honor sure, the defendant allowed murder, the defendant condones incest, the defendant tortures people, blah blah blah" Very good defense of the accused issues, can you elaborate, blah-blah-blah just doesn't quite cut it.
Dude, stop making ignorant assumptions about why athiest choose disbelief. It sheds a bad light on you, well a worst one. I don't need to convince myself of anything, I have tried very hard to come to the conclusion "good god who cares," and given the evidence I view in reality, and the explanations presented by the various holy books I cannot CANNOT come the logical conclusion "good god" This is not the reason I disbelieve, It is the reason that even if it was true and I had to believe I wouldn't serve. Do you understand that? Seriously DUDE, stop making assumptions.
More naked assumptions. I am so at peace with my disbelief in a god I truly NOW and only now not when I was surounded by religion feel centered, real, and alive.
Yes... I am, I actually think thats a fair response.
I am in nursing school right now, so I have to learn a great deal about the body. When I learn about how complex the body is, not so much evolution, but atheism seems stupid to me. No offense to you but It just doesn't make sense and just like you can't grasp religion I can't grasp a lack of design to the universe. So I rationally determine that there has to be something out there. The question from there is which religion is true and that is just blind faith. I don't know for a fact that Jesus is the true way but I have seen enough objective data to prove that there is at least some intellegence if that makes sense.
Tree-sitter while studying the human body you seem aminable to evolution but "can't grasp a lack of design to the universe." I grew up around people with medical degrees and a religion in the 1960's, before this intelligent design stuff hit the lecture circuit. Please if you can, justify the "Intelligent design" of the human body?
The complex human eye, with bad vision - color distortions - blindness, carries a 95% failure rate. Would you buy a car or clothes that didn't work 95% of he time. That's roughly 14 billion existing human eyes that will faulter from 20/20 vision in their life time.
The human body has the pleasure/ reproduction organs in the exact same place has the raw sewage disposal organs. No intelligent designer would run an open sewer through a playground.
Humans are the only mammels that can choke on our own food, thanks to our voice boxes, lucky us; But we are not born that way, newborns have their larynx down in their chests, what kind of intelligent design takes it from the usable safty of the chest and moves it up; dead-center of the breathing supply line?
Haveing one and only one favored limb (righty or lefty) is rediculous as a design. Most other mammals use all limbs with equal dexterity. Haveing complete balance is highly faverable to survival.
Tree-sitter I am an engineer with 32 years expirience on the job. These human short commings I can easily explain by way of evolutionary results but I CAN NOT accept that some kind of "Intelligence" did it. There is no "Intelligence" in human design, we ARE the result of 4 million years of evolution.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
tree-sitter you deserve recognition for maintaining an admirable level of civility throughout this thread. It may seem like nothing to you but the level of acrimony between most abrahamic theists and atheists frequently rises to the level of blood lust so observing a peacful exchange is like a breath of fresh air.
The lack of good design in so many details is extremely good evidence that the body was not 'intelligently' designed, from our back-to-front retina, our less than perfect adaptation to upright posture leading to us being prone to back problems, the vestigial appendix being prone to inflammation, the difficulties in childbirth, and many others.
Things such as these point far more obviously to an evolutionary process, which only produces adequate functionality, rather than anything deliberately designed by an intelligent designer.
It betrays a lack of knowledge and understanding to think that the God idea ultimately explains anything - unless you provide a clear explanation for how and why God is there, you have only increased the mystery.
Don't confuse mere complexity with 'design'. Complex structures arise spontaneously under many conditions. Good conscious design may actually lead to less complexity.
We can grasp why people cling to religion to 'explain' stuff they don't understand, and your lack of insight and understanding as how the universe could come to appear as it does without the guiding hand of a Creator is not in any sense a valid argument for God. The enormous size of the universe relative to us and our world is understandable in our view, but hard to reconcile with the ideas in Genesis if you assume those ideas are supposed to have some correspondence with reality. Since we know those ideas were just versions of primitive guesses as to the nature and origin of our world, it is truly perverse to insist on finding some way to 'interpret' them to support a preconceived religious myth.
We do understand why people would write the stuff in the Bible, and why you drink it up.
I and others here are quite comfortable in our perspective on the God idea. You seem to be the one with a comprehension problem.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
My first thought on what it would be like if a supreme creator was involved in making us and everything else it would be much simpler. We would be as clay automatons, the sun would be a solid ball of light with no reasoning behind it's existence, etc. Almost cartoon quality with the earth actually being flat and everything revolving around us, the center of his creation, as it does say in the bible. but that is the first thing that really comes to mind. Not this terribly imperfect world we live in where people were killed because they knew the earth was not the center of it all. Where cancer, disease and starving children reign supreme. So, bearing in mind this is just my silly thought on the matter, we as well as our planet are much too imperfect to have been intelligently designed. Unless said designer slept through his "creation 101" classes.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Very good, atleast you are being honest, and atleast you are aknowledging that my not understanding your reasons for belief in christianity deserve as much credit and consideration as you not understanding my reasons for disbelief, this is a good start.
WHY??? This statement will always make we wonder why? Why "pick" a religion. Why does one have to be right, or why do any have to be right? Couldn't none be true and there still be a god? These are questions that all theists should ask themselves. Why "choose" a religion that directly contradicts others and therefor devide man instead of uniting man. Religions vision of uniting man is to unite in one religion, this ofcourse is rediculous. Why not just believe in god and leave it at that. What kind of good god could possibly care if you were a muslim or a christian or an athiest as long as you were a good person of good moral character. That's all anyone should strive for in life, to live, to love, to be a good person and to CALM THE F*CK DOWN!!! No hell, no torture, no crazy obsession with sex, no end of the world, etc... These things are not natural and normal in the 21st century people. So my question to you is, why christianity, do you really have any good reason to be a christian and not a buddhist? Can you tell me about the teachings of the Falung Gong and why you do not believe that is truth. It just seems to me that picking a religion is so silly, it is punishable by death and eternal torture in other religions. It's really upsurd when you think about it. So... I absolutely understand your not being able to look at the world and not see a creator, I know many who are like this. I am not, that does not make me right or you wrong because neither of us have real evidence for/against his existance. But I do believe I am right about these holy books and there nature/history (man-made) and I have solid facts to back that up, if they are diety inspired it is a poor deity indeed. So why not just drop the silly dogma and become a rational theist, someone who believes in a creator, but that's it as far as other issues they are individuals just like every body else and open to evidence that could change their perception of things/god as that is intellectually honest. A rational god would respect this position.
Not really, could you elaborate? Intelligence? Like "intelligence" pointing to the existance of a man named jesus?
I like that, well put.
Yes and it's a good example how the athiests dealing with well mannered theists tend to be well manered in response and a better conversation insues. When a theist is innitially agressive and hostile they warrant the same in response.
I think that if the universe were much different, life wouldn't form and we wouldn't be able to appreciate how lucky we have it. Apparent design doesn't prove a designer; it only proves that things are such that we're able to appreciate the appearance of design. But I get your point. All in all that point is more opinion than fact, it can't be tested or falsified/verified, so other than mere conjecture I don't appreciate it as an argument in the same way you do.
Also, a lot of atheists think there was a designer for life as well: evolution. The only difference is that there was no 'mind' behind it.
But I take it you are a Christian...right?
I will only say at this point that all of your intellectual work still lays ahead. Let's say I were to grant you the assertion that things seem designed (it's a foolish proposal once you dig beyond the surface of how things appear, as has already been explained by Bob, jeffrick, etc): so, what now?
That certainly doesn't lead you straight to a deity, much less a specific deity, and much less still a specific deity whom you know is actively toying with your life right now. If things were intelligently designed, that observation alone leads us nowhere - without a comprehensive theory founded on evidence, there's effectively an infinite number of agents that could be proposed as being responsible for building us & our universe. Insisting that it must be Yahweh because you have faith in the Christian cult is a fallacious special plea.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I hear ya. Just so you know, I actually respected what you said in the comment after my post and I'm meaning to write back but I have just honestly been real busy with school. I will respond later tonight though but I don't want you to think I'm dipping out of the conversation.
Oh I know I was totally hostile but that was actually the plan. It's hard not to make generalizations but it seems like when theists come to the forums all peaceful and such they actually get ripped apart more then if someone comes in more aggressive. Here is the truth though, I get aggressive when I talk about things I'm passionate about, it's just how I am. I actually think Jesus was, as a human, a pretty awesome person so I get really intense if I feel like I'm standing up for his character. I know it's not the right way to go about it but I even feel the same way when Christians bash other religions needlessly, like when christians say "oh wiccans are devil worshipers" I actually get pissed because I know a lot of wiccans and most of them are cool.
Anyways, there seems to be some good conversation here but I will have to respond later after I get my work done.
I understand where you are comming from in respect to your passionate defense of your god. However you must understand some of us feel threatened by religion and what it does in society in general. I for instance am not allowed to run for public office because religious people have deemed that I am immoral and not worthy of such a position. This makes me angry. The whole stgma in society that wants to say I am a terrible person is more than upsetting. You must take into consideration any aspect of your religion is going to be taken harshly by someone like myself. Surely you can understand this reverse side of the coin.
I mention "myself" because I would not dare suggest all atheists feel this way, but I imagine I am not alone.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
tree-sitter, I can identify with your feelings, in that I too get passionate about what I regard as truth, significant parts of which are probably directly in opposition to what you believe. I generally try to restrain myself, to avoid saying something I may well regret.
I have some areas of 'knowledge' that I regard as having significant uncertainty, and I will not get upset if someone questions them.
But there are are core concepts which long experience has only continued to reinforce, and I may well get less than polite if someone disses them. I have to remind myself that others often may not have the background of experience , education, and reading that convinces me, so it really is unfair to ridicule them.
Regarding my current conclusions about some religious issues:
I see little evidence that an individual matching a significant number of the attributes of JC as described in the Bible actually existed.
I see plenty of flaws in what we can deduce of his character as described.
I can think of many historical characters I find far more 'awesome'.
I find the 'moral' code of the Bible mostly pathetic, and at worst, contemptible.
Just so you know where I am coming from.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
whoops, just caught this, and i have to say it depends on which gospel you read. luke 11.23 and matthew 12.30 say this, but mark 9.40 says, "he who is not against us is with us."
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Oh, I absolutely, 100% understand where you are coming from. If what you are saying is that when you see all the terrors organized religion has brought upon the world and therefore are hostile towards it I agree with you. I'm going to go on a small rant here.
I don't even know you but I would be willing to bet my life savings of the fact that you are most likely head and shoulders above the morality of our "elected" leaders. I'm not just saying that to to be nice either, I really do believe that. I view most of our politicians as the scum of the earth; most of them are liars, murders, drug pushers and all out criminals. I know I will have some Christians out there that will say "well the bible says to always obey the leaders" but being obedient as in following a reasonable social law and calling them out for their crimes are two different things. Since I was a kid, I always had a feeling that there wasn't something right about our nation and our leaders and from the past five years I've been really researching the things their involved with and they really beyond a level of corruptions that you or I can grasp.
So let me be very clear... If I for one second believed that America truly was a Christian nation and that people like the Bush Crime Family really were followers of Jesus Christ, I would reject all of it. I think any rational person would. However, I know for a fact that not only is America not a Christian nation but that it is actually the complete opposite. In everything we do, we go against the way of God. Our morals are corrupt, our national symbols are pagan as well as our holidays and our leaders really are a criminal syndicate that makes the mob look pathetic. Most churchs in America support the government not because they believe its the moral thing to do but because they get tax breaks and so the governmental corruption seeps into the church which then goes into the collective Christian consciosness. This is why Christians can acknowledge that abortion is murder but that killing Iraqi children is okay because it's for freedom and why seperations of Chruch and state is so important, because the government is corrupt and it has corrupted the church.
Government Regulation of religion leads to:
More than 200 million people have been killed because of their religious affiliation during the last 2,000 years. As religiously motivated violence escalates in Iraq, as well as in Russia, Afghanistan, and Indonesia, sociologists Brian J. Grim and Roger Finke from the Pennsylvania State University have set out to reveal the factors that motivate religious persecution around the world. Contrary to some scholars, Grim and Finke contend that it is not fundamental religious differences that lead to conflict, but rather the regulation of religion by the state that triggers unrest. Their study, in the August edition of the American Sociological Review, examines the presence or absence of religious persecution in 143 nations with populations over 2 million and finds that government regulation of religion is the strongest predictor of religious persecution. While religious persecution is evident in every region of the globe, it is far greater in the Middle East and South Asia. And although religious persecution is present regardless of a country’s predominant religion, as the percentage of Muslims in a country increases, so does social regulation of religion—which leads to increased government regulation of religion, which then triggers increased persecution. The authors contend that this downward spiral of conflict—social pressures from competing religions within a nation lead to government regulation of some faiths, which leads to increased persecution of those faiths, which leads persecuted religions to call for more government regulation, and so on—is behind the current conflict between Sunni and Shiite Muslims in Iraq.
copy/pasted from the arda
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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I believe in 'fairy tales', because I do not believe that humanity can survive an existence without meaning, purpose, and hope; I know I can't.
I believe, because no one can consistently live as though good and evil don't exist. Money is just bits of paper and metal without resources or assets to back them. If there is not an objective Reality behind our human conception of righteousness, truth, justice, and love, then those ideas are worthless. That means there is no way to say that a Hitler is evil or a Ghandi is good-- other than as a matter of personal preference, like liking chocolate better than vanilla.
I believe, because if Atheism is right, if the universe is a random chance accident, and human beings are merely a complex amalgam of atoms and molecules, amino acids and protoplasm, then sociopaths, who can do anything
to anyone without a qualm, have it right; and kind and humane actions have no logical validity.
And I refuse to live in a world like that.
"Life as it is.
I have lived, and I've seen life as it is:
pain... misery... cruelty beyond belief. [...]
When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies?
Perhaps to be too practical is madness.
To surrender dreams, this may be madness.
To seek treasure where there is only trash.
Too much sanity may be madness.
And maddest of all, to see life as it is, and not as it should be."
--Cervantes, Man of LaMancha
What you believe atheism is is colossally incorrect. It goes far to explain why you fell into Christianity.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Why Christianity?
For one thing, only in Christianity do I find any notion of grace. None of the others have anything (positive) to say to those of us who mess up, or those who are outcasts.
In every other belief system (Catholicism and Protestantism included; ie Christianity-as-religion rather than as a living faith), if you can't cut it, you're on your own.
For another thing, only the Gospel posits a God who serves; who lays aside divine rights, privileges, and prerrogatives; who makes Himself vulnerable to have His heart broken by His people. There is every difference between a general who directs the battle from behind the lines in safety, and one who fights shoulder-to-shoulder with the soldiers at the front; between a CEO who never leaves the office suite, and one who works alongside the employees, knows them, experiences their problems and difficulties firsthand. In neither the Qu'ran nor the Torah is it thinkable that God would stoop to wash His followers' feet (a task roughly on par with cleaning the toilet).
And finally, Christianity, because it is there that I have seen God reflected in those who believe. There are many, many good people of every religion, and of none; many better than most so-called "Christians" . Some of them are my very close and dear friends. But it is among (genuine) Christians that I have encountered something that went beyond human goodness. I know this may be almost beyond imagining for those here whose experience witrh Christianity and Christians has only been of bigotry, ignorance, and intolerance, but so it is.
I am not saying that I think Atheism, or Atheists, do not act morally and humanely; I am saying they are logically inconsistent when they do.
You mean to say, we are not programmed, and do things based on what each individual may think is right or wrong?
Opposed to a general concensus as dictated by a religion that may or may not be thought of as right or wrong by each individual even within said religion.
All atheists think differently, just like religious people. Religious people however are coerced into a certain line of thought by, their religion.
Thus the term "free thinker".
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
And there you go.
OMG. NO!!!! Do you understand how badly you just insulted yourself? Comparing hitler to ghandi is nothing like comparing vanilla to chocolate. This a terrible, terrible comparision. If your saying you need a god to determine ghandi being generally "good" and hitler being generally "bad" you are a bafoon, I'm sorry but thats the truth. In essence here you have said "I'm a dumbass who can't figure things out myself, i have no internal sense of morality, so I base my opigions on what (insert god of coice) "said". And how can you say "without god truth, justice and love are worthless," HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT, HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT, honestly, that's the problem right there you can't find worth in life without god, and that's so sad, truly sad. You want to believe in god go ahead I have no problem with that, but don't sit here and say all the virtues we live by and the goodness we strive for is meaningless unless a god exists, ITS NOT and that is the biggest problems I have with what you are saying here.
You are still making the assumption tha without the "god" concept we would be all raping a murdering eachother. This is such non-sense. Would you be??? WIthout the bible to guide you are you an "evil" person? It will never cease to amaze me and piss me off how the Christian says "I have no purpose without god, without god there is no point to be good, there is no point to love, I'm just a sick twisted sad creature that needs saving" How can you tell yourself that, how dare you think so poorly of yourself. That is such a terrible way to look at life, and I refuse to live in a world full of weak depressed poopy pant people who can't find meaning in life without god and cheating death, it's so sad and babyish. What a crock, what a horrible philosophy. We have to find meaning in our dambselves or our species is doomed, I have found peace and meaning in the natural world, in myself and through my friends and family. You will always have this massive hole in you you fill with god, and that's fine but don't you DARE assume the rest of the world is as needy, incomplete and babyish as you, and that we need a "god" concept to act like moral rational adults.
gEtting iT rigHt
yup! i'm one of those "assumed to be" simple minded, brain washed, illogical, irrational, and deluded Christians. i believe in the God of the bible. i have spent a couple of days reading the comments, arguments, thoughts, and angst of "the atheist". some interesting points have been made, that on the surface "seem" to make sense.
most of what i have read however are comments generated out of a common ignorance about God and what the bible is really about.
i am a "free thinker", and believe that nobody should believe anything without ample good reason. i am not here to try to "convert or change" anybody. all have the right to believe whatever! out of the numerous misconsturceptions about God and Christianity for brevity i will attempt only to clarify a couple most common and basic.
1. Faith - NOT! mindless believing something w/o or regardless of evidence. quite the contrary - trust based on good solid evidence and relationship. there can be no true faith w/o logical, rational reason.
2. Hell - NOT! a place of torture for the enemy's of God through the ceaseless ages - Good News For U! - Hell - the final destruction of a world full of pain and unfairness gone terribly awry. for those who are interested God offers eternal life w/o all the "shit we have down here". for those who don't want that God simply grants their request. they live out their lives and that's pretty much it.
i have read the 20Q's for Christian's and many other simple surface rationalities against the reality of God. i have no problems w/any of it when things are properly understood and put into prospective. could go on for pages, or even write a book on it, but won't to "spare U"
will reTurn.
"G"
Right. And I think that this is a great example of why religion and government have to be kept seperate. I think government, in it's very core nature is corrupt in that if the people do not regulate it, it will keep growing and growing until it eventually turn on people who gave it it's power in the first place. When you mix religion into government then you have basically given it the ultimate scapegoat to expand in the notion of "this is God's will for our nation". So people don't keep the government in check and it expands to much and becomes corrupt.
I just love it when the church tries to prove how close our nation is to God by how wealthy we are. In reality, God didn't hand us anything we just stole it from others. We came to this land where the indians were worried about us but figured that the land was big enough for everyone to share but they didn't take into account our insatiable greed. We used "manifest destiny" to excuse our murder and theft and no more then five years after we finally crushed the natives in the Wounded Knee Massacre, we already invaded the phillipeans to expand further. The point is that none of this "blessing" came from God but good old fasioned corruption and by holding to this delusional view of Christian nation we don't really feel any moral shame because we justify it in our own minds.
Actually preferring good to evil is far more ethically valuable than following the dictates of a leader.
I have two problems with this: one, you are defending sociopaths. You are not just talking about other people out there, but you actually believe that if human beings are made of "atoms and molecules", then it would be right to torture them to death. This, my friend, has no "logical validity". But if this is really what you believe, then maybe it is fortunate for your neighbors that you also believe in an eternal soul.
But how immortality of the soul makes you think murder is worse is beyond me. Murder is wrong because it causes death. What you are saying is just crazy-talk.
You are saying that you believe in Christianity because that's how the world should be, but not how it is. That means you don't really believe in Christianity.