Israel FINALLY gets treated the way it deserves to be.
Offline Americans: Fuck your nukes. No more hypocrisy. (Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none).
Greece has withdrawn from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the attack on the Gaza flotilla. Athens has also barred the head of the Israeli airforce from flying to Greece.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says he is "deeply shocked" by the Israeli action and calls for an inquiry
Turkish foreign ministry warns Israel of irreparable damage to bilateral ties. "This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," a statement read.
Sweden summons the Israeli ambassador to Stockholm over the "unacceptable" action
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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/10 print:chiming in for no obvious reason
/20 ifthen30=any:goto10
/30 :any
I don't think your point survived my first answer, which you ignored completely: Israeli & US interest is to keep the tension going forever in order to disrupt rising competing powers in Middle East and as an excuse for military operations in the region. You want to make both sides happy? No problem, both Israel and US want the same thing already. There is no Palestinian side here, Hamas is the Palestinian equivalent of Manuel Noriega - an excuse to keep the screws on.
What pain and suffering? The rocket attacks since 2001, ALL 8600 of them in all 9 years, resulted in 28 Israeli deaths. Motherfucker, I can do better with a spoon in a day! More Israeli died in plane accidents last year. Weren't these motherfuckers at war? How the fuck come their death rate is 3 per year? Israeli military killed 1300 civilians, 300+ children under the age of 10 in TWO WEEKS, now THAT is a bodycount I can respect. You know what that means? It means that only one side is at war here.
There are NO two sides to this issue. Hamas is an excuse, insignificant band of bandits that Israel KNEW would come into existence, both Hams in Palestine and Hezbolah in Lebanon - it is the foreseeable consequence of anexing land, bombing industry, blocking humanitarian aid and KILLING A SHITLOAD OF PEOPLE!
But you are right, Israeli civilians are paranoid and with a good reason: their leadership is keeping them at the edge of fucking extinction in order to get free hands to act as they want. Everybody in the region hates their guts because of their modus operandi. If my country bombed neighbors every 10 years or so, I would be scared shitless myself.
Pretty simple: a movement in the United States that would put meaningfull pressure on the government to stop sending Apache helicopters to aid mass murderers. It's pretty much the same thing I would have liked to see while Indonesian troops slaughtered East Timorese civilians with weapons from the US. This is what US does - supports killers and uses them as proxies for their interests in whatever region of the world. What these killers might have to do in their back yard is not our problem, that's a part of their cut in the deal. Tough luck, minorities, should have been born elsewhere.
Ironic that name Apache, isn't it? Fucking perverts.
If I kill 300+ children in two weeks, please do me a favor - shoot me. In the balls. And pour sulphuric acid in the wound.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Bingo, ZuS nailed it.
It seems to me that Israel has indeed inflicted far more harm that it has received, which makes its 'moral' position much weaker, but both sides are making appalling decisions, as far as their long term interests are concerned. Insofar as the US has been involved, certainly in the past, it has shown little, if any, better judgment.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
how do you explain all the jewish atheists, then?
and i would like to point out that, for the record, many muslims are "semitic," as arabs are technically "semites."
i personally find the whole term "semite" misleading anyway, since it's based on a mythical genealogy springing from a mythical figure (shem) in a book full of mythology (genesis). it's the equivalent of saying i'm a descendant of king arthur.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Israel and Palestine insist violence can solve everything, actually
Israel and Palestine have today renewed their statement to the world’s children insisting that they are a perfect example of how violence can be used to solve pretty much everything.
With many of the world’s impressionable young people being taught that violence should never be used to resolve their differences, Israel and Palestine are keen to show the easily-influenced youth that this is actually not the case.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said, “We are told as kids that fighting resolves nothing, well we would like to go on record as saying that it absolutely does, and I’m sure our Israeli neighbours would agree.”
Israeli President Shimon Peres agreed, telling reporters, “Sure, this place can be a nightmare to live in, but can you imagine how bad it would be if we hadn’t been incessantly bombing the shit out of each other for the last 50 years?”
“All that violence has been instrumental in creating the welcoming environment that you see around you today.”
“If anything, we are both prime examples of just what can be achieved when you focus on trying to kill your neighbours to the detriment of just about everything else in your life.”
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing
swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive
power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some
farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here
that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing
me, you saw it didn't you?
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Yes, it seems to be that way... apparently, this abstract entity called math points in that direction. The fact that Israel has an army that could kick NATO's ass and nukes, while Palestinians throw rocks and cock-eyed missiles that killed 28 people in 10 years, might also be indicative that you have been fed bullshit for the entirety of your life - at least regarding this issue, but probably also regarding your whole basis for understanding the world.
If you can believe that there is a Palestinian side to this issue, you can believe anything. On the scale of crazy, being a theist is extremely conservative compared to our contemporary mainstream understanding of the issues in the Middle East, the world and especially in our home countries. Believing that there is some dude up there might impede your judgement on many issues, but our western education is leading us head on into passive acceptance of self-destruction on global scale.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
What the hell are you trying to say there?
I have always been arguing that Israel has been far more belligerent and excessive in its responses than was remotely justified, and that in the process was giving the Palestinians even more 'justification' for striking back in whatever ways they could, while also pointing out that the Palestinians were not helping their 'cause' by sending in suicide bombers.
And how does the obvious and uncontested fact that Israel is massively better armed than the Palestinians - altho I am not quite so sure about 'kicking NATO's butt' - have anything to do with me 'being fed bullshit for the entirety of my life' which is a stupid and ignorant claim. You have no idea what I base my comments on.
Not that it is any overwhelming evidence either way as to how accurate my perceptions of that ongoing mess are, but I have actually been to Egypt and the Sinai are in the early 90's, after the first Gulf War, and not long before a bunch of attacks in Egypt on tourist spots I had been to, and got some hint of what it might be like to live there, including talking to an Israeli couple over an evening meal in Sharm el Sheikh. I assure you I listen to a variety of sources on this whole business.
WTF is your problem , Zus?
Why this over-the-top ridiculing of the comprehension and understanding of anyone who doesn't quite see things the same way you do?
Some of your posts here I have pretty much agreed withy completely, in others you seem to be pushing some pet theory which seems a bit questionable.
I don't think the Palestinians have a good case, and even if they did, sending suicide bombers into Israel is a batshit crazy response. OTOH, Israel's over-reactions are actually giving them some measure of a claim of being subject to unfair treatment.
You are entitled to your assessment, and I don't think your ridiculing of any differences of opinion is helping make you more credible as an authority on this.
Seeing or hearing about places I have actually been to being subject to major terrorist attack or other disruption, sometimes within a year or so of my visit, whether it be the Temple of Hatshepsut, the WTC, the London underground, Thailand, or Western China, does make me think about these things.... Having been there at least gives me some way to calibrate the way they come across on the TV screen to the reality...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I'd love to answer your whole post, but I think this is going to be much more productive. I will put forward one little segment of what I wrote with your response:
See how these two statements are incompatible? I claim that there is no Palestinian side in the "conflict" and you respond with discussing whether they have a "good case" or not. You see the disconnect? It's right around where you put 1,5 million people living crammed in the most populated area of the world with 50% unemployment, with no control over their food, water and medicine import or production, 60% of them children under 15, on one side of some imaginary dispute, while on the other side you put one of the most powerful military forces in the world. The Palestinians, half of whom would still be watching Sesame Street if they lived in US and had electricity, have a position in a conflict, according to you. And this position is so aggravating, that we can have an academic discussion about it. That is just not serious.
I don't think you can appreciate the severity of disconnect the westerners have with the reality on the ground. You've been fed academic hypothetical bullshit all your life - it's a reflex at this point. I know you watch the news, but trust a guy who followed western and local "serious media" for 2 years while the country he lived in collapsed around him in a bloody orgy: there is 10% truth in the analysis on ANY corporate or state supported media outlet. And I am being generous, because the 10% truth is so twisted by the overall context, that it is serving only as a catalyst, a propellant for sending your understanding of the situation to the outer orbit of Jupiter.
I do get inflamed from time to time, that is true. This often works against me. Like so:
No, I am not entitled to my assessment, or opinion for that matter. Enough of this entitled shit - the fuck you are entitled to opinion, no you are not. We have a nation of retards who are all entitled to their opinion and their assessment and they can't find their ass, let alone Iraq on a map. When you are in war with a country, you not only need to know where they are, but what their top ten folk music hit list was last week. And even before you make your case, you need to be taken apart and looked into for any possible material or other interests you might have in the issue going one or the other way, so that we can get some context in your "expert" opinion.
They come across about the way Odysseus' speeches came across Cyclops: careful, calculated, daring and blinding.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Zus, I can hardly make sense of any of your responses there.
No Palestinian 'side'??? 'Imaginary' dispute? WTF? That sort of comment is 'incompatible' with any rational approach to this mess, I'm sorry.
The Palestinians may have been in a significantly better situation today if they had been a bit more rational in the beginning. I can also see that putting Israel down in the middle of that territory was asking for trouble.
What point are you trying to make with the 'not entitled to' shit? I can get the idea of having no respect for the opinions of people who haven't really experienced such a situation, and I understand that most Americans probably fit your assessment of their awareness of the wider world - (FWIW I am Australian).
But that doesn't mean that it is impossible for anyone who hasn't been thru such an experience to make some sort of halfway respectable assessment, or that they can only be pulling any assessment out of their ass.
You do NOT know what I have based my opinions on. 'Academic'? I am aware of how information on the realities of such situations can be distorted, how anything put out for public consumption needs to be critically evaluated.
BTW, where do you get your information on the situation there now? Do you live there? or regularly fly in? Apologies if you do, but otherwise you aren't in any obviously better position to know the current truth of what is going on there than I am.
There is also such a thing as being too close to a situation to make a fully rational assessment.
In my last comment, I was not referring to just the way various commentators and spokesmen 'come across', I was referring to the whole picture and feel of what is going on there, as distinct from someone who has only experienced the place via a TV screen. So I don't see much relevance in your final comment.
This response confirms my opinion of your discussions - a crazy mix of rational comment with ill-considered emotional rants.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
It's not a conflict at all, but incarceration and expulsion of a minority, as a link in a chain of control of the whole region through destabilization, threat and use of violence. US corporate and statist interest is at the core of the conflict, not the fringe. US is not mediating peace, it is funding the destruction and murder. Talking about how to sattle Israel/Palestina is equivalent to deciding how to treat the symptom, not the disease. There is no palestinian side at this moment, there are only palestinian victims.
It's the base assumptions in the assessment that are frozen in place by the way media forward or hide info, destroying any context. Israel and Palestine are a perfect example. If you listen to the media, it's about two entities in the middle east. If you follow the documentation (votes, vetoes, resolutions, sanctions, declarations, attacks, casulty statistics, humanitarian organization reports, independent journalists and non-corporate media), you realise that what Palestinians do at the negotiating table has no impact on the actions of Israeli military and government and that the recent Brazilian diplomatic effort of maneuvering to consolidate the region by mediating Turkey and Iran nuclear fuel deal has far greater influence on the situation at the moment than any Palestinian government, leadership or whatever else ever had. Just follow the chronology since 1945, clear as day.
I am in Denmark and travel only if I must. I have associates and people I know directly involved, including PMCs on the ground (Afghanistan/Iraq mostly).
I spend 4 to 8 hours a day reading and listening 8-12 in the weekends. You can start with Jeremy Scahill, Dahr Jamail, Diego Enrique Osorno, Al Jazeera (journalists here are actual journalists - totally new concept), Democracy Now, pbs.org: NOW & Mojers Journal (archives, the shows are discontinued), Haaretz(english version anyway), business papers (business week) depending on journalist and whatever article that isn't quoted straight from royters, Amnesty International reports. As books go, first to read is Howard Zinn, then Naomi Klein, then John Perkins - missing many but it's 4 am here and I am getting up in 4 hours.
Info isn't supposed to be taken in, but looked at from 10 different angles. Brain is good at regression analysis. Have fun.
Odysseus has no chance against Cyclops head on. Luckily, there is another way - dangerous, but if careful, dedicated and bold when it counts, Odysseus will decieve and ultimately blind the Cyclops.
Our leaders are to the public what Odysseus is to Cyclops. They are few and weak, but we are disorganized and naive. They have to deceive and blind us in order to avoid being crushed. The "whole picture" that you mention reflects this reality - it is a slogan, not a news story; a logo, not an image of reality.
hehehe
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
We've heard in this hread from atheists who support Israel and atheists who support Palestinians. WHAT about the people, in both camps who DON'T LIKE their own leadership's tactics. I'd like to hear from them instead of the finger pointers? Are their dissenters in both camps?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/07/MNCI1DR7L6.DTL
I would have given Jews the same advice. But not for the "occupation" point of view. The deed is done, and the Jews are not going anywhere.
I am getting tired of Jews demanding blind loyalty and Muslims demanding blind loyalty when life is NEVER black and white. And I am getting tired of BOTH sides claiming to be the victim when the fact is NEITHER IS. And the western world, especially America is not helping the situation, but making it worse.
No one bothered after WW2 to think about what moving into that region would do. While the rightful empathy was there for the victims of genocide, the solution after the war was the wrong one. If Jews living in Israel today want to falsely claim it to be bigotry to say, "Get out of the crack infested neighborhood", they can, but they would still be wrong.
If a rich guy buys a house in a crack neighborhood and expects his house not to get broken into or damaged or expects not to get assaulted walking down the street. KNOWING that the criminals don't care what you think, YOU ARE A FOOL. Its not a matter of Jews being wrong, it is a matter of LACK OF PRAGMATISM IN THINKING AHEAD, which they did not do. I am not accusing Jews of being bad, merely of being human and making a bad choice.
Again, there are plenty of places in the world where Jews could live without fear, in Europe and the Americas and be perfectly welcome. But to move into a neighborhood where people smoke Allah like crack? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Fuck anyone who falsely calls me an anti-Semite for merely saying, "Maybe that was a bad idea".
CONVERSELY, whatever "occupation" claims Palestinian want to make, DOES NOT nor ever will mean that acting out in violence will always be met with, "hey guys we took land that doesn't belong to us". Sympathy for lack of resources and basic needs gets lost when the issue becomes making "outsiders" to be deserving of death.
Neither wants to consider that their ARE and can be people, who for no other reason than physical location, are automatic enemies because of such and guilt by association kicks in. No solution can be found in labels and "us vs them".
I never would have advised or given Jews that land considering that that region has not had its secular awakening and not had the benefit of 200 years of enlightenment or pluralism. Jews after WW2 might as well have moved into a meth lab. That region was and is still high on Allah without a secular government to keep it in check.
My advice to Muslims in the east and Palestinians. The deed is done and whatever I thought Jews shouldn't have done, is mute. They are not going anywhere. Acting out in violence is just going to make them dig their heals in deeper. Muslims need to stop smoking religious crack and treating any outsider as deserving of death because they don't share the same god. GROW THE FUCK UP MUSLIMS!
FUCK ANY MUSLIM OR ANY PALESTINIAN WHO CLAIMS BIGOTRY, for merely saying, "Maybe you shouldn't follow bat shit insane people who think blowing things up is a valid political tool".
And I am sick of BOTH sides trying to skirt the the issue of god belief when it has EVERYTHING to do with why both sides are fighting over that land. If Jews are claiming that they are a "secular government" then why do they need that land? If it is not about Yahweh?
And to the Muslims in Palestine, if it isn't about Allah, then why are you so bent on getting rid of the infidels?
YOUR GOD GANG MENTALITY is bat shit insane. I hate to tell Jews and Muslims that they are equally as stupid in pretending that they are special and that they are god's chosen people. If it isn't about god, this conflict wouldn't exist. PERIOD.
"Poor me" "I am the victim"
I have never seen such an obvious display in humanity of passive aggressive co-dependency based on the selfish "god gave me this land" mentality BOTH are pretending doesn't exist.
AGAIN JEWS AND MUSLIMS, IF IT ISN'T ABOUT GOD, THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU BOTH FIGHTING?
Jews were wrong for moving there in the first place. Not because the Muslims were right. But no one bothered to think about the bad neighborhood they were moving into. Muslims are wrong because they NEED TO FUCKING GROW UP and move into the 21rst century with the western secular world.
I think there are people on both sides who are so clouded by being too close to the situation that they cant see that MAYBE someone with no horse in the race is seeing the mistakes both sides have made and are making and maybe if BOTH sides would LISTEN instead of beating the shit out of each other over land no one owns, but merely live on until they die, MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE
YOU BOTH NEED TO GET YOUR FUCKING HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES!
FUCK ALLAH AND FUCK YAHWEH, I am not impressed with the status quo and I will not take sides anymore.
NOW, we have heard from the blind loyalists in support of Jews and Muslims.
CAN WE HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE from both sides who don't like what their own leaders are doing?
How about some Palestinians who think blowing things up is bad? How about some Jews who think expanding setlements is bad and building walls is bad and denying basics is bad? We've heard from the blamers, can we hear from the problem solvers who don't like what their own are doing?
I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE ANYMORE FOR CALLING BOTH SIDES NUTS!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Bob, do you see what we are dealing with here? This guy is past 40. Billions are turning hands in over- and under-the-counter deals, but he can't see "why" they are fighting. His knowledge of the issues can be summed up in a 1 minute news cast and he has no idea how to change that, even in the unlikely event of having a genuine interest.
He wants to hear from people who don't like "both sides", obviously never having followed any serious coverage of the issues, where just that type of people abound.
Multiply this guy by 0.80(%) and then 750.000.000 (roughly Europe + US) and you get the ballpark figure of the amount of idiocy we are dealing with in the west. This kind of thing is not congenital, it has to be taught. You have to be trained to be blind to everything around you. It has to be propagated from school to the workplace to the family values to the institutional indoctrination, so that you know your place, are always afraid to lose it, always looking to climb the next tier of meaninglessness and have no idea how to interrupt the dilution of integrity.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
WRONG. If the focus should be on backroom deals, then BOTH people like you and your Israeli counterparts need to understand that YOU are being lead by the nose as much as they are. The cause IS religion and the politicians love the ideological distraction. If they can make it about labels and sell the label, then they can distract you from their dirty business. But to say Islam and the east have nothing to do with it is bullshit.
I am well aware of how politics is even in America, using emotional appeal to lead the masses by the nose. Now if you think Hamas isn't doing the same thing, you are full of shit.
IT IS about religion and the powers on both sides using it to divide humanity for their own selfish power grab. Muslims are just as guilty. Otherwise the entire Middle East wouldn't want to kill Jews and deny the holocaust.
So anyone who doesn't blindly side with Palestine is deluded and wants them to suffer? Are you going to LIE and say there are not Muslims there that kill because they believe Allah told them Jews were the enemy? Are you saying that ALL Muslims are immune from being brainwashed?
BLIND is you and the atheists here supporting Israel doing the same thing thinking you are not doing the same thing. YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING!
You are just as distracted by your own bias as any Israeli who thinks they are entitled to land because Yahweh told them it was theirs. Those in power on both sides LOVE it, because it keeps them in power. But I agree, it is about power but you are just as guilty as blindly condoning the violence as you accuse Israel of.
Then you have the same nerve that the atheists supporting Israel in this thread to bash the guy with no horse in the race? YOU ARE BOTH NUTS and BOTH of you, not me, but both of you are guilty of buying into the powermongers who allow this to continue.
PROVE IT THEN, put up or shut up. If it isn't about Alllah and you DONT want violence, then stop supporting worrying about others, CLEAN YOUR OWN FUCKING HOUSE before you start pointing fingers.
AND I'LL say the same to Jews. If it isn't about Yawheh, then stop being blind to those in power and question what they do.
There is no conspiracy. There is a climate of fear of the other fostered by the powers on both sides who have an interest in keeping it that way, otherwise they wouldn't be in power.
You are like the Jews, you want them to side with you without question.
No thanks, your schoolyard god gang mentality AS WELL AS THEIRS is what the politicians love.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Oh, so I am so indoctrinated that I never said in this thread the unpopular opinion that Jews never should have moved to that area in the first place. That would never get me in trouble saying that to Christians or Jews. I am so glad I am an Uncle Tom of an atheist and just kiss everyone's ass.
You have no clue how much of a ruckus I cause on the net because I think someone is full of shit. I am hardly on the fence on this nor is this a case of "kumbia". And I find it absurd for an atheist to accuse an atheist as vocal as I am.
I am sorry that it offends you that I won't blindly say Palestinians are doing everything right. They are not. And following bat shit insane fans who suck Allah's dick like it was crack, is not my idea of sane.
Anymore than I think it is sane for Jews to think they can just take whatever land they want and kill whomever they want.
YOU BOTH DESERVE THE "BATSHIT INSANE" AWARD! How is that kissing Isreal's ass, because I won't blindly kiss yours either?
You both deserve each other.
That is so funny that you'd call me an Uncle Tom considering that I have pissed off just about every group you can think of. HAHAHAHAHAHA
BOTTEM LINE, your human emotions are natural, and SOME of your beefs are lagit. I just disagree with tactic. Same with Israel. And both of you are pissing me off.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I have looked at some of the sources you quoted, and there is really nothing there that I am not already familiar with, at least in a general sense. Your persistent assumption that I am ignorant of all these other threads going on, and am just swallowing or being blinded by the crap from the mainstream media is really becoming tiresome.
I know where Brian is coming from, and that perspective is at least as legitimate as yours.
Even these people doing all these backroom and under-the-counter deals are also deluded and short-sighted in their own way.
I have never denied any of the facts about the parlous state of life in Gaza, I just see you concentrating excessively on just one aspect, albeit an important one, of this whole mess.
In some ways, my viewpoint, and even Brian's, are going another step beyond yours, to the ultimate causes and motivations behind the 'hidden' dealers and manipulators you refer to, as well as all the other parties involved.
The fact that all these other things going on does not invalidate the things I and Brian claim. They are different aspects of the whole situation, we may disagree with you about how much they ultimately contribute to the mess, how much they are 'cause' or 'effect'.
He does understand 'why' they are fighting, at the basic level. As to the wider 'why' the whole situation has got to this point, the reasons are as varied as the number of people involved in the conflict.
We do have some intelligent and perceptive commentators out here, one of whom in particular regularly seeks out and speaks to people involved in various aspects of the Middle East situation, and other important issues.
This is one reason why I find nothing particularly new or surprising in the things you or those other sources you refer to describe. It is your rabid insistence that your analysis is the only legitimate or enlightened one that annoys me. Yours is just one more voice to add to all the others I can choose to listen to, depending on how well they seem to make some sort of sense, and fit into my continually evolving picture of the world.
Just as with any other aspects of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything'.
Your comments have at least led me to do some more digging in particular directions I may not have done before, as can happen with any other information I come across.
I do make a point of giving some attention to differing opinions, as long as there is at least some common ground that I can start from. That is how I test and extend my understanding.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
That is just terrible!
Just kidding. Look, sorry I yelled at you. I am weathered by having to regress to basics every time this issue is on the table. People in general don't know what is happening out there, our media are giving our governmnets a reach-around, while our educational system is lagging behind ancinet Greece, the place where the best educated executed Socrates.
I suppose I am more utilitarian than most when it comes to human life, even though I hate the concept of assignign prices to values. The reason why I am so focused on one side of this issue is really the fact that both my utilitarian and classic moral (retributionist?) side of cognitive reasoning point in the same direction. Here's how that works:
Utilitarian: I believe it to have been demonstrated time and time again that Palestinian groups can not influence the negotiations towards better results - it is simply not up to them. No matter what they do, Israeli govt, military and settlers will do what they want. The only valid focus of protest in this issue must therefore be the Israeli government and military.
Classical moral: The reason I do not talk about attrocities commited by Palestinian groups is that I am not responsible for them - I can't do anything about them. I have my hands full with attrocities that I AM responsible for - namely, Israeli military attrocities. My government has supported Israel in everything and anything they did for decades, simply because Israel is a forward US base in the Middle East. I pay taxes, I vote, I can do something about these attrocities, and therefore I am responsible. In fact, I have an OBLIGATION to do something to stop these attrocities.
You can call that ne-sided I suppose.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
I agree, Palestinians cant influance the negotiations as long as they are lobbing rockets at civilians and blowing civilian busess up in the name of Allah.
When have, in the history since the Jews moved into Israel after the war, all be it for the wrong reasons at the wrong time, have the Muslims in the middle east not wanted them wiped off the face of the planet? Until they turn away from violence and until they turn away from the crack smoking Allah nut lickers, and demand they stop calling for violence, what would you expect Jews to do?
If I was living next to you and you were black and I kept shouting at you every day, "GET OUT NIGGER!" Wouldn't you be a bit paranoid? And if I shot at your house wouldn't you be within your rights to shoot back?
Jews are not looking at it as any part of it being their fault, they are doing what humans do, they aren't looking at it as them doing anything wrong. They simply see it as self defense. I see it as overkill and in many cases has been inhumane. But not a conspiracy. Just a mundane reaction all humans can and do have. You aren't always going to sit back and ask why someone hit you, you are going to hit back. And most people will try to hit back harder than the person that hit them.
I see both sides acting just like that belligerent parent when told that their kid said "fuck you" to the teacher, they say "My kid wouldn't do that".
I once told a kid not to ride his big wheel in the parking lot because he might get hit by a car. The parent came out and threatend to beat me up because I scared the kid. It didn't matter that the kid took it the wrong way, and it didn't matter that I was concerned for the kid's safety. All the parent cared about was that I made their kid cry.
All either side in this conflict is concerned about is that their own are dying. Neither is showing one fucking bit of concern about whom they kill on the other side or how their petty conflict is affecting the rest of the world.
Both sides defend their own, because that is what humans do and whatever valid points either side may have is unfortunately lost to this mundane human tunnel vision all humans can be capable of. If anything is causing this perpetuation it is the climate on both sides. It is not a conspiracy.
(Palestinians)When you don't have something, you are going to turn to someone who provides you with something, sometimes even if that someone isn't sane.(Jews) If you want something and have the power to to take it, you won't always consider the impact it may have on others.
Both sides are making mistakes.
If you really believe that the Palestinians have the moral high ground, then prove it, treat those who treat you badly better than they have treated you.
I would say the same to Israel. If they believe that they have the moral high ground, they are not proving it to me by using BUSH CHENEY hardline macho bullshit crap "might makes right".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No you are not. You are one person. And the only way you can help either side is to recognize human behavior for what it is, something we all do and all are capable of. Playing martyr for a cause is what both sides are doing and falsely playing martyr yourself is foolish.
It is ok to criticize Israel. But you are not a hero and it isn't about you. It is about them, it is about what both sides are doing and while speaking out is good, don't add to the martyr complex both sides suffer from. I agree with you that Israel has done some horrible things in their overkill. But to pretend Hamas is not a fundy nutgroup bent on everyone else submitting to Allah, is insane.
I'd advise you to take yourself out of your emotions and see it like you walked up onto a street fight and broke it up, or tried to break it up. The two involved aren't going to want to talk it out. They are both going to appeal to you that the other started it. At some point when you see you aren't getting anywhere the only thing you can do at that point is to try to at least get them to agree to stop. Only after both sides have stopped and been given time to cool down, can you make the attempt to bridge the gaps.
This really is not that different than two people fighting each other. Most people lack the reasoning skills to talk it out. It is easier to beat the other into submission.
Neither side needs any more heros. Hero worship gets people killed.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I can sum this conflict up quite aptly with some lines from the movie Commando:
Bad guy, "I'm a Green Beret"
Arnold:" I eat Green Beret's for breakfast"
Flight attendant: "You guys eat too much red meat".
Both sides spend too much time fighting for a cause and very little time thinking about the death they both cause.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ok, that was just bullshit all the way. No, recognizing human behavior for what it is is not only nowhere the only way you and I BOTH can help, but is completely retarded to even claim that it is.
And no, you do not decide what my principles say about what I am responsible for. It's apparently an alien concept to you, but I count myself responsible if I can do something about a bad situation. You know, baby drowning in the tub, it's not your fault, but it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY the moment you know about it and can do something about it. Get it? Do I need to be clearer?
Neither you or I are heroes and it's not our fault, but we are BOTH responsible. If we do nothing, it WILL BE our fault. Why is that so strange?
Out of emotions? You have got to be fucking with me.
I look at it like this: a grown man stomping an infant, while you are telling me that there's no reasoning with the two. Or both of us waiting until the indians and the cowboys stop fighting, and approximately 98% of 12 million indians are erradicated.
Does any of this make contact with your cognitive apparatus?
Inaction when facing fascism gets people killed. You don't have to be a hero to open your eyes. You don't need to be anything special to get on a boat to Palestine either - those people were teachers, lawyers and retired.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Just because the most prominent religion (insofar as I'm aware) in Israel is judaism does NOT IN ANY WAY suggest that's the reason I think Israel should be dropped off the map and bombed to the stoneage. I'll let you figure out which fallacy you're guilty of here.
That goes double for Kapkao, who obviously needs an instruction on basic logic. As it stands he's equal to a theist as far as debate goes.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I think the world has way too much violence in it. And I think you allow your emotions to rule you. Proving once again under given circumstances any human is capable of anything. And you wonder why Jews are paranoid treat Palestine like prisoners.
Listen to you, "You deserve to die"!
Do you think Israel gives one shit about why you say that? If you were saying that to me, and not an entire country, how should I react?
If I was saying "You deserve to die" to you, as an individual, how should you react?
And you act shocked when Israel responds the way it does and you wonder why the business of war does so well. Again, if threats and violence havent worked in the past, what makes you think it will continue to work?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I'm just curious why I "(need) instruction on basic logic."
Do you have any clues, B37? (I would prefer insight from an unbiased source)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Gaza Flotilla Raid May Not Change U.S. Policy Towards Israel
link
Of course he's the 'best president, evar'... wait... what is he doing again, that's so great?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
For the same reason supporters of Israel need one. Both are too busy blinded by conspiracy to bother to see that it is merely a climate of paranoia and fear. Death leads to more death and until the labels are done away with neither side will give in.
This conflict is basic human nature. Someone invades your space, you defend your space. Someone hits you, you hit them back harder. But what is lost in all this is that neither side is seeing that when a human dies, those related to that human will respond to that death. The labels are distracting humans from the fact that they are human.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
So... we all need "basic instruction on logic"?
To me, being called "human" is an insult. I'm weird like that, most days.
But the rest of what you just stated is a standard "no shit, Sherlock" moment to me. I already grasp what you've just posted.
None of which has anything to do with an atheist Canadian who wants to bomb a nuclear power into the stone age and thinks Obama is "the best US president in US history, bar none" simply for calling the situation "tragic" and calling (unsuccessfully) for an independent investigation with 1 US gov't observer.
Rational.
But hey... I guess I still need "basic instruction on logic".
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I agree Kap ( for my own misanthropic reasons .... alas, I sometimes consider humans, due to their frequent self-centered, callous and otherwise baffling behaviour, to be the lowest form of life. In my estimation human intelligence and creativity are poor compensation for the myriad character flaws I observe within my species on a daily basis. Sorry about going off on a tangent, carry on... ) www.whyihatepeople.com
If by "unbiased" you mean "not influeced by anything, including knowledge of history or any meaningful reasoning", then you are asking the right man.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Believe me when I say I felt tempted to point out how unrealistic B37's points are, with regards to the Middle East. It occurred to me that -in addition to having little room to stand on regarding unrealistic desires- that 'some cans of worms are best opened by someone else'.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
It takes a bit more today than being anal to be special.
Bullshit. Are you reading the shit he writes? "Climate of paranoia and fear" is the reason the same thing has been happening for 60 years? No. Climate of maintaining power and earning a shitload of money is the only climate that can continue to persist for that long, if it makes population in the area positively miserable.
And look at the "this conflict is basic human nature" - what retarded shit is that? EVERYTHING WE DO is basic human nature, it doesn't even make sense to say it - it's like saying: You know, we die if hit by cars and people like to drive fast, it's basic human nature - is that a reason not to do something about people being run over? And for the case in point - is "human nature" an argument to stay totally disinterested and completely ignorant about what happens on the ground, what the regional and global interests are? Of course not - it is HUMAN NATURE to get informed on all levels and it is HUMAN NATURE to resist opression. The opposite is also human nature - a shortsighted, helpless and neutered dickhead human nature.
And this "conspiracy theory" nonsense - like I am talking about alien invasion here. Common stuff, history is full of it, but it's "conspiracy". Ignorance squared.
The bombing part was an emotiaonal reaction, I am almost sure of that. So is this Obama being the best US president - great, the best of the mass murderers and corporate pleasers, that gets him high on my list as well, just not the one everyone thinks about when we mention US presidents. His contribution will be clear in a few years, and it's not pretty. If you listen to what the Obama administration came out with, it is not a condemnation of Israel's actions at all: "We condemnt acts that led to this bloodshed" - that is totally up for grabs. What actions? Whose actions? The flotila sailing in international waters maybe? The girl with the too short skirt is to blame for her rape? Total bullshit.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Right because, we never hear of Muslims killing unarmed people in the name of Allah. That has never happened. An none of these nut cases live in Palestine. They are all merely fighting back because they are starving. None of it has to do with Allah, ever. Those are just lies fed to us by the evil U.S. government because we all know they control our media.
I think you need to take the tin foil off your head.
I have seen plenty of interviews conducted by media of parents of the madmen who blow up buses and unarmed people and the parents deluded into believing that they are with Allah. I have seen plenty of protests with Muslims holding up guns and shouting "Death to Israel, Death to America".
Yea, my government has a secret computer photo shop program that feeds the networks these lies.
Understanding WHY they behave this way doesn't make them sane. Anymore than killing 300 Palestinian children makes Israel's tactics sane.
HERE IS THE HISTORY IF YOU ARE UNAWARE.
Jews and Muslims have been enemies long before their post WW2 move back into the neighborhood. I guess I am just pulling that out of my ass too.
The parent is the Jewish state(not a good parent, just one attempting to be westernized and pluralistic)who has horrible parenting skills. They are the guy who thinks using brass knuckles because the kid forgot to take out the trash. Palestinians are the BRATS! Who are being told by the Allah dick suckers that they will feed and cloth them if they follow them by killing in the name of Allah.
You are aware of all the violent Koran verses that call for the death of Infidels. Are you going to lie to me and say none of the powers that be in Palestine, or the Middle East that support them, you are off your rocker.
You are full of shit if you think it is a conspiracy. Israel does the wrong thing in it's reaction to Palestine, but gets it's LOPSIDED funding from the U.S. because of it's understandable PARANOIA! Don't threaten them with death and maybe they wouldn't be paranoid?
Again, if you threaten me with death, and I have bigger guns than you, DAMN RIGHT I am going to punch back harder! That doesn't make me right in all cases or that I always have rational justifications for my actions. It just makes me human. That is how humans react to a threat.
Stop trying to kill them. Stop threatening them. And stop pretending that the Allah dick suckers have nothing to do with their own power grab. Palestinians can be lead by the nose as well as Israelis.
Israel has it's own violence worshipers because they think Yahweh gave them that land. So when they defend the expansions of Settlements and the protection of the holy land, they are going to do so by any means, not because they are always thinking, but because no one likes to be threatened.
Shallow thinking is abundant. And for you to fall for the same JFK conspiracy crap when all that is causing this is climate and tribalism(Zeitgeist on both sides), makes you just as bad as the Israelis you want to criticize.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
DEATH TO ISREAL, DEATH TO AMERICA! And the video of Muslims in Palestine cheering 9/11. I was imaging that too? That was made up? Israeli media made that up? American media made that up?
You got me bud. Killing unarmed people never causes fear. Just like killing 300 kids didn't cause Palestinians fear. Just like bombing the shit out of Lebanon didn't put fear into it's citizens.
The only one I see perpetuating the same crap is the same crap I see from you deluded friends in Israel. You want to think you are different, but you are both the same. All full of cause and little on humanity. You are no more a hero for your side than an Israeli pilot dropping a bomb on kids and women and civilians.
How about some media covering BOTH Jews and Muslims side by side calling for an end to this? Not government, just laymen. How about laymen, everyday citizens in Palestine who dont hate Jews, simply keep saying they dont hate them and demand the ones that want to kill them, stop.
How about Jews in Isreal, NOT GOVERNMENT, just citizens, call for the end of expansions. Call for an end to the overkill.
I certainly am not delusional in thinking that will actually happen. But if you say that it is because of money, if Palestine was so poor, then why does the Middle East spend so much time showing their nations how many dead the west kills? BECAUSE IT MAKES THEM PAWNS AS WELL! The Middle East wants them poor, because it keeps them dependent on Allah and makes for great video to inspire other idiots to die in his name.
But it is not a conspiracy. It is a climate, a zeitgeist. THE POWERS THAT BE on both sides are going to fund an atmosphere that favors their side. the media is going to reflect the bias of that culture.
It is BOTH government policy and cultural media and blind loyalty to those most like you. You are not going to win. Israel wont either for that matter. One wrong move by either side and no amount of sun block will save anyone.
Your solution is the same as theirs. SUBMIT TO ME. Do you honestly think by threatening Israel with extinction you will save humanity? I don't think they have any better a chance at peace by making prisoners of other humans.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
KILL KILL KILL KILL MORE, MORE DEATH MORE MORE MORE! DEATH IS GOOD!
KILL THE CHILDREN, KILL WOMEN, KILL KILL KILL!
You are an idiot. And just as testosterone filled as the macho Bush dick suckers who blindly suck Israel's dick. Enjoy your crimson 69.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No, that was very real - and it comes from somewhere. It's not something they get out of their ass or some religious training - they get it from being under the boot since the end of second world war and under the knife after 1967. And even so, it's just a tiny fraction that reacted that way. Most muslim societies responded with roughly the following: "We sympathise with the US civilians, but terrorism is nothing new to us".
US has been engaging in international terrorism for decades. US government is the equivalent of Al Qaida in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti, Chile, Cuba, Cambodia, Vietnam and dozens of other places, while US client regimes have hit most of the world causing hundreds of thousands of dead. Just to name one: Indonesian genocide in East Timor, fully funded, supported and justified by US leadership and not reported by US media. Here I am not even mentioning economic opression and outright terrorism of sovereign countries.
You think that would be enough to cause some partying people on the 9/11? I think it would. But don't worry - they won't bomb us, 'cause they can't. Not even Hamas - they can't do anything. But we will bomb them. Terror is primarily the weapon of the strong.
What are you talking about? Is there a point in there?
If we were the same, there would be no problem. Remember, my first principle is looking at OUR actions and attacking OUR attrocities. If everyone did that, there would be no problem.
What I want is OUR withdrawal of support from Israel, just so children brains blown out by Israeli guns aren't paid by OUR money. That's is. Nothing more.
Do you even know who the Jewish settlers are? Do you know what they do? Do you know who brought them to the sattlements? This is not a matter of a neighbor dispute, this is an engineered confrontation used as an excuse to erradicate a whole population.
Israel is systemically linked to its military, as huge revenues come from US for the exact purpose of feeding the violence. Ordinary ctizens are ALL expected to serve leangthy service in the military and most of them are exposed to real action. The population is extremely radicalized - huge spontaneous crowds besieged the Turkish embassy day after Israeli commandos killed 9 turkish citizens, dissidents are targeted for assassination by different facebook(!) groups, a dissident member of Kabutz is under heavy protection because of concerns for security - its 1939 and we are in Berlin.
Holy shit, mate, you need to look up what happened 1967, what arrangement Egypt made with the US right around that time and what consequences that had for the whole region. That will explain to you most of what you need to know in order to stop this "Allah" bullshit and come down from the clouds.
Wow, maybe we will come to some agreement.
Nope, back to "my" imaginary side. Again, my side and my responsibility is MY GOVERNMENT, which happens to be funding mass murder. What I want is for that to stop. I care much less about stuff I can't affect, so I care about this: my government must stop supporting mass murder.
Did I threaten anyone with extinction? If I did, my bad, 'cause I really don't have enough of an army to extinct 10 people in a room, let alone a nuclear superpower. But I think we should stop supporting them in their efforts to enhance violence in the region - how about that? Just don't send them guns - how about that? That could be our trademark: "We don't give guns to mass murderers". We could make bumper stickers.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Now he gets it! ...
awh... fucking sarcasm... >.<
What Would Kharn Do?
I'm fed up with both sides, but I do not believe we should be anything to Israel but the most superficial of allies... you know, the same way we're allies with like... the Ukraine. There is no reason for us to be so deep in each others' politics and policies. None.
I just don't think ours and Israel's interests line up enough to be true Allies. A lot of times our alliance just makes things worse for both countries. Add arms and nukes into the picture, and seething hatred by any pro-Palestinian or Islamic state, and...
Didn't Jefferson and Washington warn us of entangling alliances?
Jefferson:
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I never said that. But if that's what it'll take to end their attrocities in the area, then so be it.
And again Kapkao fails to come up with an argument of value. No surprise there...
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You want to bomb a nuclear power into the stone age.
.
.
.
..... you also don't have any interest in debating or HELL even arguing your viewpoints. That is all anyone needs to know about discussing things with you.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
By Israel's own admission they are NOT a nuclear power. Thank you, come again.
Quite the contrary. Whenever you're capable of having a debate feel free to start one. Until then, keep failing.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I thought we were allies to them but they are only pretending to be allies with us, we are their hole card so they can't totally blow us off.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I've debated my points; you have yet to do so. Admit it Vastet: you can't argue things with people you disagree with civilly, because you're just too self-absorbed.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I don't buy anyone's propaganda. They claim it, and fight suggestions to the contrary. I'm all for making it real.
And they aren't a nuclear power anyway. They wouldn't have any nuclear technology if it hadn't been given to them. The only fake nuclear power on Earth: Israel.
The rest of your post is just lies and typical 12 year old trolling, and not worth acknowledging as anything else. Thank you come again.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well... your post shows everyone a glimmer of hope.
So -fake or otherwise- you want to bomb a nation with nuclear weapons -including hydrogen bombs, if I'm not mistaken- into the "stone age".
In what way is this rational?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
How is it not rational? Taking out the most aggressive, secretive, and hypocritical nation on Earth is very rational.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Nobody is going to do it........
It's the Judeo-Christian holyland. America is going to be Israel's ally for the moment.
And Obama, like Dogma Dubya... is struggling with approval ratings (regardless of which polling news network you inquire into.)
Americans don't care for him, all-of-the-sudden!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
You could say the same thing about the Soviets. If it weren't for Oppenheimer's assistants giving them US nuclear secrets they wouldn't have made their atomic weapons. France's nuclear weapons program got a lot of aid from England and England got aid from the US. By your standards most, if not all but one, nuclear powers in the world are 'fake' because they are using technology given to them by foreign powers.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India