Hang child molesters?
Posted on: December 20, 2010 - 4:13am
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Hang child molesters?
I say, sure.
Especially those who sexually molest young children. Hang the evil bastards!
What justice is that to keep them in prison with the victims' family tax money?!...
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Posted on: December 31, 2010 - 6:54pm
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I still haven't seen one
I still haven't seen one single objection to this argument:
If the death sentence becomes mandated for child sexual abuse, then the perpetrator has a positive incentive to kill the victim because the victim is a witess. He or she won't face and bigger sanction in any event and since most child abuse is committed by people known to the victim, then the incentive to kill is pretty strong.
This idiotic idea would not reduce the number of children being raped, but would certainly increase the number of child rape victims being killed.
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Yes, I was going to say the same.
Those "innocent" cases are disputable, except perhaps one or two extremely rare cases.
Even though, the present justice system we live under is to be always grey in nature.
There is no B/W system anywhere in the world, and never was.
Sure, in countries where political corruption is a trade justice is to be a serious victim.
Even though I now vacillate to state the final blow to child molesters - because your arguments are strong enough to make me think twice - what other just solution do we have to satisfy all parties concerned?
OK Blake, I am not sure where you are going.
Does the death penalty meet the goals set out by it's advocates?
Well, people still get murdered, sometimes in horrible ways.
The families of victims are sometimes lucky enough to see justice done but they are assured of a couple of decades of agony over whether it will actually happen or not while the process plays out. That is assuming that that was what each individual wanted in the first place.
Do you want to make a case that it is the very worst punishment we have and it is reserved for the very worst crimes? OK, I can see the point to that. In that case, I don't see why we need to have a big deal about making execution nice.
We are going to off the person in question. A stick of dynamite in the mouth is probably quicker than a protracted lethal injection sequence. Yet the lethal injection deal does not absolve society from the fact that we are offing people. It only allows us to feel better after the fact.
Don't be trying to feel good about the deal. Kill the guy. At the end of the process, there will be one more dead guy in the world. Let's not pretend that the world is dealing with a surplus of dead guys.
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I just couldn't think of any. There got to be some right? Maybe it was just Perry Mason.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
And those police and forensics experts should be tried for murder for giving false testimony. Pretty simple. Using the state to kill somebody is no different than using a knife or gun oneself. It's always possible to frame somebody, and doing it to the ends of that person being executed is simple premeditated cold blooded murder.
I also made the same argument earlier in this thread, and it was ignored as well.
I'm not sure which element of my comment you are unsure of the direction of.
Blake, the thing about it being rare that we find out after someone has been executed that they really were innocent. I don't think that it matters that it is rare, only that it still happens despite the controls we have on the process.
I could pick up the newspaper tomorrow only to find that some a-hold did a death bed confession for a crime that we already executed someone for. Don't get me wrong here. We have the death penalty. However, if we are going to do it, we need to make sure that we get it right.
How about the guy who killed president McKinley? He was executed forty day after a very public crime. That much was swift and certain. If we have guilt down to that level, then I don't see all that much of a problem. As long as we get it over with quickly.
On the other hand, there are people who have been on death row since before president Clinton took office. The families of the victims have been living all this time knowing that at some point, some official person can say that we are not going to follow through with what we said we are going to do. Pretty much on a “just because” basis.
If they had been sentenced to life without possibility of release, then the families would know that something would have been done. That would not have made anything right for them ever again but it would have made them know that something final had been done.
However, the way that we are doing the death penalty, the families have to live in a world where the deal can be set aside, often a decade or more after judgment has been rendered. The convicted person gets to know that he might be able to escape his sentence but the families have to deal with the potential for the same thing.
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I can understand why someone who has had a loved one tortured, tormented, or killed would feel an intense desire that the perpetrator be killed.
That does not make such a execution necessarily 'right', or 'just', whatever those words may ultimately mean. Or that it really will bring 'closure'. Or that such feelings 'justifiy' the death penalty.
I have a visceral revulsion to the idea of capital punishment. It is barbaric. It actually sanctions the idea that it is ok to kill someone, if you are in a position to do so.
It endorses the crude biblical 'eye for and eye', idea of vengeance, even if you restrict to some entity in an 'appropriate ' position of authority.
Violence, even 'judicial' violence, breeds violence.
My country (Australia) has not had a judicial execution since 1967.
We are well up the ratings of nations with low levels of violent crime.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Look guys i have a little experience with this issues.
Not myself but a very very good friend of mine.
I have told some of his story on here before but let me bring the rest up to speed.
Lets call him "John"
John was 6 or so when the abuse started. it was his next door neighbor that his parents used as a sitter.
The neighbor was gay in a time when being gay was unacceptable in the south "Alabama" i will not use that as an excuse for his actions just a point made. He himself was unaccepted by the community.
This guy raped John everyday when he came home from school.
He raped him in every sick fucking way you could think of.
Now John and I have been friends now for more than 16 years. it took him 10 to tell me.
John has been admitted into the "crazy world" as he calls it. 3 times.
The damage that was done to him as a child has completely ruined his life.
Not a day goes by that he doesn't think about it.
I realize that being a child molester in prison is a horrible life to live. They get what is "CUMMING" to them on a regular basis.
However for the sake of closer some thing that John never got. KILL THE FUCKER!!!
I am pro choice so i have the right to be pro-death penalty.
Child molesters should be taken out in to the streets, or televised execution.
Think about it this way. By making it a public execution any fucker that has the urge just may think again.
If one child is saved by that then we have done real justice to humanity.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
My country, south Africa hasn't had the death penalty since 1995 and we have some of the highest crime rates in the world.
Not that I don't appriciate that you were likely just pointing out you don' need to death penalty to have a safe society.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
Of course. It isn't a simple cause and effect, but there is some correlation.
I see the 'belief' in the death penalty, and the general level of violence in a society, as having some influence on each other. And there are other aspects of the society, the culture, its history, which are involved.
Even with all those other things being equal, I would not expect an obvious effect after 15 years. It can also depend on the context in which the death penalty was dropped.
I could also imagine such changes requiring generational turnover.
I have in impression that here it was part of a long-term trend, maybe assisted by a revulsion, a rejection, of the penal colony origins of much of white settlement here.
In practical terms, for crimes driven by passion or deep urges or obsessions, I doubt that the consequences of being caught are going to have much effect when the urge and the opportunity coincide. Once it has happened, the prospect of extreme punishment may well drive the person to extreme actions aimed at minimizing the chance of discovery, such as killing and concealing an otherwise surviving victim. So any hope that such penalties may actually save a child is just that, a hope.
I can imagine, but not prove, that once the realization does sink in that they are likely to be discovered and executed, they may well be more likely to go on a final killing spree while they can...
NEVER base ideas for the best approach to social regulation on the thought that people are mainly governed by rational evaluation of their situation, or think the way you think you would, that would be irrational.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Those are the cases where slaughtering the molester is the right solution.
We don't need human beasts of that nature in this crap world.
If you are referring to the ones who go on a killing spree, that is precisely the case where killing them is too late, ie it didn't work, and the prospect of being executed is what may have got them to go into a killing spree. The death penalty may have triggered them to kill where they might otherwise not have, if there was a prospect of 'merely' life.
So make up your mind, are you driven by vengeance or saving kids, because vengeance execution may lead to more deaths. And you have already said that an action that may save even one child should be followed. And that action may be removing a mandatory death penalty.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Bob, I see you point.
However, here in South Africa there are occasional serial killers who know there is no death penalty.
What then moves them on to their beastly acts?
Is it possible that where there is no death sentence there are no serial rapists or killers?
Or is it all grey and never in black and white?
Not at all.
There are always going to be those who will do that anyway.
I was just suggesting that for those not quite so insane, the realization that they are likely to be caught and executed for what they've done already, will have nothing to hold them back from going on such a spree. They have nothing more to lose. You can only be executed once.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Yea, you can only be executed once, but you also can't get your life back if you are found innocent after your execution.
I don't think law should be about punishment as much as it should be about detainment and control and rehabilitation IF POSSIBLE. You cant punish someone who doesn't give a shit, all you can do is detain them and control them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Perhaps it was simply wasn't addressed because it's quite true... although I dislike the notion that child molesters hold children hostage if they become desperate.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
At least we've cleared up one thing: it is your emotions that primarily drive your preferences here, not your logic or ability to reason.
Apparently, not giving a shit about someone's circumstances also breeds violence... which is still BS, but worth a
or two.
Actually, we're innately a violent species. No gender is immune, nor is any age immune.
Nor is any sex free of paraphilia, either, as I learned at a... curious age. You can't castrate a woman, not matter how weird she is, either.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Yes, male prison rape is an old wives' tale made into an urban legend, but that's all it is. The modern prison system is set up so that most criminals won't even lay a finger on the sexual predators, no matter how much they'd like to otherwise.
Now, this I can stand behind!
There is an odd double standard amongst... certain political persuasions
, that women have the right to choose, and an abortion should be legal, yet we shouldn't kill violent felons (particularly recidivists, which is what rapists and peds tend to be.)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
The figures for male rape in prisons seem to be estimated in the range of 10-20% of inmates, based on figures from a range of actual studies and surveys, rather than 'urban myth'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
What prisons, what locale, and where did you get that figure from?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I totally believe you regarding Australia's violent crime stats, nevertheless what's that popular phrase that's so frequently quoted around here ? ...."correlation does not always imply causation."
As of 2006 Singapore had the lowest murder rate of all when compared to other nations ( http://chartsbin.com/view/ueh ) and like Japan ( number 3 for lowest murder rates ) both employ the death penalty via hanging. Even Morocco, which also has the death penalty, still leaves Australia statistically far, far, behind when comparing homicide rates.
Interestingly, Columbia, the nation with the highest murder rate in the world has no death penalty.
You mentioned ( to kapkao ) a nation's level of being "civilised" as a contributing factor as well. Perhaps. Apart from the issue of capital punishment, do you also consider Japan as a cultural backwater ?
No matter where you stand on the use of the death penalty there is no one size fits all approach to deterring crime. One nation's experiences will not necessarily map onto another nation's. As is said in advertising "results may vary."
The proliferation of giant robots doesn't necessarily make a nation a beacon of cultural progress. Japanese culture is traditional, profoundly xenophobic and sometimes blatantly discriminatory. Housing discrimination against foreigners in Japan for example is rampant. Their criminal justice system though is really nothing to write home about either as people there can be held for very long periods of time without legal counsel and pressured to confess .
The severity of punishment that people are willing to inflict on others is limited by their concepts of justice and human dignity. In that way nations that employ premeditated violent homicide as an instrument of social policy are in a sense culturally backward relatively, unless you think there are no limits.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Even my home country, the United States, has had many periods of national history that could be described as ghastly from a human rights perspective ( slavery, anyone ? ) Show me any modern superpower that doesn't have a record of blatant human rights abuses at some point in their existence.
The three examples, Morocco, Japan, and Singapore, that I cited for extremely low rates of homicide despite the active use of the death penalty were chosen simply for their quite remarkable statistical ranking. I was not endorsing them in regard to the livability factors.
Perhaps life in Morocco is bleak but your chances of becoming a victim of lethal violence are nevertheless still indisputably small, which again was the only significant point I was making. Funny how an admittedly shit-hole nation ( sins and all ) still managed to achieve a level of public safety that leave many so-called progressive, western style nations as literal killing fields by comparison. Can you say paradox ?
Sorry not to get back earlier. A couple of times after I had added quite a number of links to this post, I accidentally clicked another link which replaced this page, losing what I had entered.
I had other things to do. But I need a break from coding/testing, so I thought I would get back, after collecting a set of a links in a separate editor.
The article I got those figures from was this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States
Here are other sources I found to get more perspective on it:
http://www.nospank.net/rape2.htm
http://www.justdetention.org/en/jdinews/2010/12_12_10.aspx
A more general Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/report.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/20/politics/20rape.html?_r=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Prison_Rape_Elimination_Commission
One about a disputed study: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-17-prison-rape_x.htm
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20020624.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/coolman08012003.html
Doesn't seem to me quite as much an 'urban myth' as you would like to think...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I truely hope you don't mean that belief in the death penalty causes violent crime. Violent crime makes people want the death penalty.
Yes I would agree there is a relationship. If there is a lot of violent crime in a country more people will want the death penalty. In a country like South Africa (50 murders per day, second highest rate in the world when compared to total population) the measures taken don't seem harsh enough to help curb the crime rate so people want stricter measures. The death penalty seems the logical next step. I doubt it would help but it is what it is. I waver in between wanting it and not wanting it. It has nothing to do with money at the end of the day dispite what I often say, it is a bout what is just.
Does someone who has raped and killed 17 women deserve to spend the rest of there life in jail or do they deserve the same fate as those women (minus the rape). What is justice for the families of the victims.
I will say this though, if there was the death penalty I would support a system where the next of kin of the victum(s) can deny the possiblity of the death penalty if they do not want it, but cannot cause it to be given.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
I maintain that if it is generally accepted that vengeance, violent response to violence, is acceptable, that deliberate killing is ok, for actions that are seen as sufficiently offensive, then while of course it does not CAUSE violence, it can reduce the negative social pressures against violence.
And a life of imprisonment certainly can be much more of a punishment than a relatively brief period of pain.
Would you demand the death penalty for failed suicide bombers?
I would also be dead against giving any say to surviving friends and family of the victim. That implies it may not so bad if you kill someone who has no immediate friends and family.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
"Like to think"? I prefer only truth.
Let me rephrase: I don't consider 13% to be a terribly significant occurrence. That's 87% of the prison population unscathed by sexual assault, and a great deal less a problem than what the public assumes it to be (to say anything about movie portrayal.)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I don't know that anyone has argued abolishing the death penalty prevents high homicide rates. I certainly wasn't suggesting it does. It's that having the death penalty doesn't ensure low homicide rates. That's not undermined by the existence of states that employ the death penalty and have low murder rates and the former may have little if anything to do with the latter.
The death penalty probably can't be an effective deterrent because it cannot be applied consistently and swiftly unless you're willing to kill lots of innocent people with it which would seem to defeat the purpose.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
My feelings on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpBvzZE7WX4
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
"Don't consider ... terribly significant " ?
Which is of course as much a subjective judgement as "like to think" - ie, not a "truth".
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
It really isn't something we can test, but I doubt there is any effect. As I said in non violent societies they wont favour the death penalty so there are more social pressures against violence. The higher the crime rate the more people favour the death penalty the less social pressures against violence. I would say the death penalty is irrelavant to this. It goes with out saying in places with high crime rates there will be less social pressure against violence. The violence causes the the desire for the death penalty. the death penalty doesn't cause a reduction in social pressure against violence. There was already little pressure against violence. Thats how I see it. But its not something I can se a way to test.
Punishment is not the goal, the goal is justice. I don't care they could be worse off by living.
as with all crimes depends on the situation.
I'm not sure how you got that, if you kill someone with no family its totally up to the judge, you are worse off for killing someone with no family as there is now no chance of any of them stoping the death penalty if it was deemed worthy.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
come to south africa, its 45% for juvinile centers which have more protection against it than actual prions.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
Problem: South Africa is the rape capitol of the world. Pointing out problems in the penal system seems a little moot. Doubly moot since the "13%" referred to one particular nation.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
....and yet a nation like Singapore, whose liberal use of the death penalty is undeniable, has attained a world wide status of fewest homicides. That seems to conflict with your theory. Perhaps the difference is that in spite of the threat of capital punishment violence in the hands of civilians is viewed as strictly verboten yet the use of lethal punishment is accepted as long as it is sanctioned by the state. Who knows ? I still find it odd that such a large number of nations that employ the death penalty are still outranking their competitors when it comes down to fewest murders.
Theories are one thing, statistics are another.
Sure, it can work either way, or both.
And how do measure 'justice'? Seems ultimately quite subjective, to me.
The goal should be penalties consistent with adequate and demonstrable deterrence, and allowance for rehabilitation to whatever degree practical and possible.
There are going to be those who simply have to be kept apart from society.
Just wondered if you saw a hint of irony in attempting to deter suicide bombers by the threat of death?
That would depend whether any family was inclined to reduce the standard penalty or demand more. Which is why I say they should not have any say.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
People are deterred by near certainties not remote possibilities. When there are safeguards in place to prevent killing innocents, death sentences are very uncommon because they're costly and time consuming.
Those safeguards could be removed to make it a more effective deterrent but considering that the last major study of the US death penalty appeals process revealed that two out of three death penalty conviction are overturned, mostly due to prosecutorial misconduct and inadequate counsel you would almost certainly be condemning many innocent people to one of the most brutal forms of murder imaginable.
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/061200death-penalty.html
I've never heard of an individual so psychotic that they informed their victim in advance of the exact day they would murder them and then locked them up and kept them healthy until the killing, and I can't imagine that as justified retribution in any case no matter how bad the offender may be. But the possibility of condemning an innocent person to that is so horrifying that it would be better that all guilty people are able to avoid it than one innocent be subjected to it.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
There are three things I immediately see as problematic with this:
1) Yes, we are all firmly responsible for who we are as adults. How we were brought up is no excuse for anything. HOWEVER, if you look at the upbringing of people who have committed the most horrible crimes, serial killers and so on, it is completely disgusting and horrific. The most incredible, disturbing, violent, psycho, psychologically twisted abuses were perpetrated on these people when at their most vulnerable ages. That's what creates someone like Jeffrey Dahmer. So yes, we are responsible for ourselves, but we may be talking about abuses that no human being could reasonably be expected to overcome without extensive professional therapeutic help. I'm not trying to turn criminals into victims, but just to say that there is a cause and effect mechanism in place here. The problems we need to solve are not to execute people, but to avoid the problems for children before they occur.
2) As sort of an addendum to that, our culture sexualizes the young in the most systematic and disturbing ways. Have you seen nothing of child beauty pageants? Our culture has no problem whatsoever in dressing little girls up like prostitutes and parading them around for an audience. Has no one heard of Jean Benet Ramsey? Again, I'm not insinuating that each individual is not responsible for his or her own actions, just that culture, at large, is not helping this situation.
3) Mistakes do happen. Memory is fallible. If just one single innocent person is executed on the electric chair, his or her blood is on all of our hands. How can we live with ourselves? Collateral damage? What if it were you who was the one falsely accused because you chose to help that child with his or her bloody nose or whatever emergency situation? Furthermore, this creates an environment where no one can help anyone else. Stepping in to help an underaged stranger leaves you open to accusations and paranoia in this atmosphere. It's cultural sabotage disguised as safety.
The solution is never murdering people. It's finding the roots of our cultural problems and stamping them out at the source so that we don't have to have this discussion anymore.
Ryan
Indeed those are the tools used to bring Justice in non death penalty nations/states. The point is to deliver justice not to punish. If we did things to punish then it would be vengeance. That was my only point.
Just wondered if you saw a hint of irony in attempting to deter suicide bombers by the threat of death?
I don't believe the death penalty is a deterance at all let alone to those trying to kill themselves. But yes a caught the irony. If justice is best delivered by the death penalty then it should happen.
But the family has no recourse to demand more, that is the point. All they can do is veto the death penalty which would be reduced to life in prison with no chance of parole.
How do we measure justice? Quiet right it is subjective. But then again so is how long someone should go to prison (which is part of justice anyway) yet we have found a way. So we determine it in the same way. The judge decides if the crime is bad enough to deserve ultimate justice based on a standerdised norm. Its a tough job drawing the line and probably better to err on the side of caution but that doesn't mean it should be taken off the table completely.
As for what I think does someone who killed one person in a non sadistic way desereve the death penalty in order to deliver justice, no probably not. A serial killer, it depends on his method and number of victims. A wold class sociopath like Robert Mugabe, yes. Was justice delivered by hanging saddam hussian, yes, though there are many others that need to be brought to justice there. Not that I think hanging is an acceptable method.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.