So I have to ask the atheists here...
Offline Alright atheists, I have a question for you. What would you do if the rapture, as described in the Bible, did occur? This is more like a poll, but I don't know if you can make those here, so I'll ask the question in the forum instead. Now remember, all Christians (and only Christians) would disappear with no apparent reason.
Would you:
A. Try to account for this with something other than the rapture
B. Believe in the Bible and become a Christian knowing that you are living in the end times
C. Realize that the Bible is most likely true but refuse to believe because of something in the Bible that you don't like or something about God you don't like
Pick a letter and explain why you chose that letter. Or, if I left out some obvious choice, then you can pick that and explain why.
For my answer, I'll pick B because the rapture would be evidence enough for me to believe the Bible.Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
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Actually, this statement is probably not factually correct.
The Doctrine of the Rapture was developed in the 1820's by the Scots pastor, D. MacPherson. It is supported by the thinnest veneer of quote-mining and cherrypicking from the Bible, linked together with a lot of really shaky reasoning based on unsubstantiated assumptions about God and salvation.
The word "rapture" does not appear in any version of the Bible. No Christian believed in or knew about the idea before 1830. Even today the majority of Christians do not subscribe to the doctrine, and some mainstream fundies like Pat Robertson openly deny it.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I (truly) don't get that distinction. Chosing to join Satan or not, for me, it's all the same: it's believing in God. How can you believe that Satan exists and wondering whether to join him without believing in God? Whatever "side" you're chosing, you're not an Atheist, but a believer.
The Atheist / scientist says: something weird happened, let's try to understand how that happened, by looking for evidence and reasoning.
The Theist / dogmatic mind says: the rapture happened! exactly as predicted! Hosannah! Allelujah! Allahu Akbar! let's all rejoice! wadda wadda wadda. OR the rapture happened, what a mess, I hate these guys, let's join Satan against them.
Oops. I guess I didn't make my point right, by believe in God I meant that you would join God and become a Christian (or whatever sect rises). Sorry about the confusion.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
If there was some blatantly obvious proof that an omnibenevolant God exists, I'd choose him.
However, the current lack of such blatantly obvious proof - dispute the ability of an powerful, all knowing God to easily provide it - leads me to belive he neither exists or is omnibenevolant.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
I'm not an atheist but I have an opinion on how I would handle this scenario.
Initially I would assume A was the case. I see no reason why I would automatically explain a physical event supernaturally. It makes no sense to do so. So first I would seek an explanation in the first likely place, physical reality.
Now if there was an actual rapture, as defined by 'left behind'ers etc; then eventually I would come upon some form of evidence that lead me to believe it had happened. For example: Angels trumpets booming from the sky and warning us to preparefor misery. and IF it came to that, and it was undeniably a supernatural event, my decision is already made - a god that raptured christianity just like the left behinders describe it would be no god of mine. I'd be happy enough that many of the best human beings I have ever known in my life were with me, and happy that what amounts often to the exact opposite of those people, were gone. YAY. But if the left behinders were absolutely right and a tribulation punishing the kind and good-hearted, but non-worshipping people I know, for years on end, followed. I'd be happy to go to hell and be out of the prescence of the maniacal tyrant whose idea it was to do that forever, sign me up. C all the way.
B would never apply to me, on the grounds that the sadistic vindictive fantasies of lunatic christians equalled God. I wouldn't believe in or worship it no matter what you paid me, I'd say fuck it all if that was the case.
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If something as big as the left behind scenario would happen, I'd definitely look to see if there is a common thread that connects the missing people. Being here in Israel, I would not lose many people that I know, but I'd definitely try to go on the phone and online and check to see if I can get any response from my Christian friends. Then, when I see that all Chriatians and only Christians are gone, I'll become one in a sec, put aside my fiction and nonfiction books, and be happy I actually own a copy of the new testament, unlike most Israelis. Then I'll start reading it, along with C.S Lewis, and other stuff. I hope computers won't blow up, etc, because most of the religious stuff I have is on my comp.
In addition to my earlier comment, I'd just like to add: If something like this does happen, I'll probably become an important theological figure in my community. I hardly know anything about Christianity, but I know plenty compared to most people in my area. Most are seculars, many are religious Jews. Obviously there are some Arab Christians, but they won't be here, would they?
Here is a differnt but equally interesting question.
If I proved the existence of Satan, by doing bonified, undeniable witchcraft (i.e. raising your dead grandparent from teh dead, bringing a demon from out of the earth, taking you on a tour of hell, etc.) then would that cause you to believe in God, or would you suspect sadistic aliens who like having lesser life forms praising them and sacrificing sheeps and humans to them?
It would cause me to believe in Satan, at the very least, but I'd still need to see God instead of just assuming.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Being a consummate scientist, I would have start with A.
After that, If you convert after rapture does it count? If not I'm f'd Do you disappear instantly? Was it really God or someone with a world wide anti-christian ray? You need to construct a theory and test it. See if converting some people makes them disappear. If not I'll pick up my sword and start lopping zombie heads (I might do this for a while anyway, just for fun).
BTW: If you proved somehow that satan exists, it still doesn't mean that biblical God exists, just that you have seen some weird shit. I'd ask him if he knows which religion is correct. Not that you could trust him.
I'd also ask him where God came from. If God didn't come from anywhere then he can't exist.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Being a consummate scientist, I would have start with A.
After that, If you convert after rapture does it count? If not I'm f'd Do you disappear instantly? Was it really God or someone with a world wide anti-christian ray? You need to construct a theory and test it. See if converting some people makes them disappear. If not I'll pick up my sword and start lopping zombie heads (I might do this for a while anyway, just for fun).
BTW: If you proved somehow that satan exists, it still doesn't mean that biblical God exists, just that you have seen some weird shit. I'd ask him if he knows which religion is correct. Not that you could trust him.
I'd also ask him where God came from. If God didn't come from anywhere then he can't exist.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
umm... wut? For one thing you couldn't trust Satan, for another... how can you make such a statment? There is no logical argument I can see for such a thing, especially if the entity is outside of time.
Isn't the idea of "The Rapture" something that was created in the 1800s? I wasn't aware that it was actually in the Christian bible.
You're pre-supposing the nature of something we are unsure of.
Further, if something is outside of a dimension they can not effect things of another dimension. Consider a two dimensional being. This two dimensional being can not interact or effect a third dimensional being. Now, if God is outside of time, then he exists in half a dimension less than we do.
That is, this is how the natural world operates.
Good point. Also time is the measurement we use to show change (this is not an exact physics definition, but I am not a physicist). If God exists outside time he can not only not change himself, he can't affect anything else. Is this the latest version of God always existed?
Of course asking Satan doesn't make any sense, it's kind of a joke. This whole thread is just a bit of fun seeing as atheists obviously don't believe in Revelations anyway. It's like asking what you would do if you caught a rabbit in the act of planting chocolate eggs in the garden.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
What would I do if the Rapture actually occurred ?
I'd probably start looting the homes of the missing Christians... I mean why let that stuff go to waste ?
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but it would be COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL to reject Christ if all the Christians were raptured, agree? I think a lot of you have made irrational claims, problem here?
From what I've heard the word "rapture" isn't in there, but it is a biblical concept. Revelation 3:10 teaches that Christians will be spared from the Great Tribulation. Somewhere else it teaches that we will be "caught up." I'm not sure if you could take Jesus' words in John "Some of you will not die," to be prophecy of later Christians. I honestly haven't studied it enough. I wish I could give you a better answer. . . unless you were just trying to be funny and say the word "rapture" never shows up. It didn't read that way, thus my reply.
So you're saying that if a ton of people disappeared, the fact that not everyone who calls themselves Christians are gone would lead you to initially believe it wasn't the rapture.
If the rapture is not the first thing that comes to your mind then you are being irrational. The burden of proof would be on you to claim that it wasn't the rapture.
Anyway, this is just a hypothetical question. In reality, I'm not sure if you will have the ability to just decide to put your faith in Christ, since theologically, faith requires the Holy Spirit's calling.
I'm a little late contributing to this post, but I think I'd pick my own option - don't look a gift horse in the mouth!
By the way, if the god of the bible existed I'd say he was actually satan and fundies were all his demons. God's actually vacationing in the Bahamas.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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As long as you acknowledge your irrationality.
There would be massive science grants to study the backgrounds of those who had disappeared, to try determine any patterns. DNA samples from relatives etc
Experiments would be made to see if changing belief caused disappearance
Examinations of the scene of disapperance would take place along with the bodies of those who died due to the disappearance of others (wot no pilot!)
In other words I would be fascinated to see what data came out of this and is there was a clear scientific consensus I would probably go along with it.
Of course this isnt the question the real question is
'what proof do you require to change your mind that god exists'?
Now that is a damn good question which I would find extremely hard to answer as the difference between magic/divine intervention/ and science beyond our knowledge is likely to be pretty small
Well, basically, it would come down to if we actually have free will or not. If we have TRUE free will, then all the prophecy in the bible is more "what's PROBABLY going to happen"... if the prophecy in the bible is all fact and no room for deviation, then we never had free will to begin with and I was going to hell from the moment I was born.
I don't believe in the bible, but I would like to think that free will exists even if the bible is indeed true. If free will exists, that means the prophecy can be fought.
If the rapture comes I will be gathering whomever I can to fight. A war with God. If the rapture hits, all bets are off... there's no more trying to treat the enemy with respect, it's war now, kill or be killed. And if the prophecy can't be fought, and free will was a lie all along, then I will burn in hell forever, with my pride intact knowing I never bent knee to man nor god... and I'll spend eternity trying to figure out some way to burn heaven to the ground.
Have no pity for those mired in the prophet delusion, content to be servile for a lifetime; tis better to be king for a day
Adraedan, I think you were on to something with the free will vs. sovereignty of God thing, but I believe free will and prophecy can coexist. All prophecy says is "This will happen." Free will brings things about. I am not sure if we have free will, I wish I was settled on this.
But seriously man. . . I think this question was posed to find out why you truly are an atheist. You and I have had our disagreements, but I don't understand how you can call your atheism rational and make a statement like that. Well, I'll invoke scripture here and say I can see what it means for Christ to be "a stumbling block to the wise." While your response would be flat out irrational, you may be touching on something very true. I just don't know what to say man. That answer sort of negates you from claiming you left Christianity, "because it didn't make any sense." Just my observation.
I never said I left Christianity, I said I was taught by them and raised by them. I can never remember a point in time where I believed in Christian Myth, even as a young child it all seemed like a crock of shit no more true then any other children's book my parents would read me before bed (of course they never read me the bible, we didn't own one, I read it in school.)
But basically it comes down to this, either a) Christian Myth is wrong or b) Our reality is ruled by a theistic dictatorship worse than Hitler, Stalin, Saddam and anyone else you care to throw in there. The Christian god (and Muslim god and Jewish god, since they're all the god of Abraham) is evil. No ands, ifs or buts. He/She/It is evil. He placed knowledge at the fingertip of man and told him that he can't take it... it took the devil to give man knowledge, and man was punished for it. Just like Prometheus was tied to a rock to be tormented forever for giving man fire. Any god who would deny me knowledge is no friend of mine, and if this god does exist, then I will spend eternity trying to figure out how to comit deicide.
It doesn't matter of God exists to me, I will fight Christianity tooth and nail until the day I cease to exist.
Also consider this; in every war one side tries to make the other side seem worse. In WW2 Allied propaganda painted the Nazi's to be even worse than they actually were, and Nazi propaganda painted the Allies to be monsters. So far, the only idea of hell we have is from the enemy... I'm not so trusting to believe the bible's view on Satan and Hell until I have an alternate source written by their side to measure it against.
Have no pity for those mired in the prophet delusion, content to be servile for a lifetime; tis better to be king for a day
OK.
So who do you ascribe celestial gifts to? Goodness, righteousness, love, etc.? Is God confused? If God has created all things, is it more likely that a perversion of God's creation results in good things or evil?
1. If we are to scrutinize the story for its logic can we conclude that God is immoral for commanding Adam not to eat the fruit?
2. Would an evil God even give Adam the opportunity to chose the knowledge of good and evil?
When I was a child, I sprayed myself in the eyes with a fire extinguisher (accidentally). I could have been rendered blind, but my parents came and helped me wash my eyes out. Now had my parents been there and told me, "Put that fire extinguisher down," even though I desired to observe it, would they be evil for ruining my joy? You see, they had told me not to play with the fire extinguisher, but I was disobedient. Yet, when they could have allowed me to go blind to teach me a lesson, they loved me enough to save my eyes. Do you see where I am going with this story?
And we all know who was right.
I understand what you're saying here. Logically, someone has to be right and everyone else wrong. Now we have to ask, "Which is right so that I might follow him?" Obviously we cannot come to a conclusion here, but if we must chose between God and the devil, I'll take God.
This hypothetical bullshit exposes the absurdity of religion at its very core. What about Mormons? They're Christians but they're book has a completely different view of the end of the world. Would all Christians who believe in the rapture disappear? Or would every serious theologian that has doubted the literal translation of the Bible got to hang out until Jesus came back and was like 'hey it's cool guys'. What the fuck ever I'd choose A and get drunk.
Those aren't celestial gifts, those are ours, as humans. No god gave us those feelings, because those feels spread across the spectrum of humanity no matter what god they believed in. To say the only reason we have positive emotion is because they were gifted to us is insulting
Your fire extinguisher anaology is flawed. Knowledge is never bad. Knowledge is always positive. ALWAYS POSITIVE. God tried to deny us that, according to your mythology, because it would be easier to control us if we didn't know better for ourself. Sheep are easier to herd if they are unable to question why they're being herded. According to your myths, Satan directed us to that knowledge. He tried desperately to free us from god's tyrany just as he did in heaven before he was thrown out. The more I read the bible the more it seems that Satan is the hero of the whole story. He's the one watching out for humanity. He's the one encouraging us to strike out on our own and do what we want to do and to tell the big Hitler in the sky to go fuck himself.
A better analogy would be a big heavy book that you might drop on your foot, but also contains all the knowledge you'd ever need. A free mind in hell is better than an obedient mind in heaven.
As for the Nazi/Ally thing, no, we don't. The Allies painted the Nazi's to be Satan worshipping baby eaters. Most people in the Nazi uniform were just young german men fighting for their country. I breifly worked with a man who was in the german army during WW2 and he was one of the nicest men I ever met, very courteous and somber... not a Satan worshipping baby eater. On the other hand, the American and Allied armies are known to have, and even now known to, commit heinous war crimes, murder civilians and do all kinds of horrific things. There is no innocence in war.
And obviously, you don't understand what I'm saying. No one is right. No one is wrong. No good. No evil. Merely action and consequence. Two sides of a coin, niether better than the other. I choose neither God nor Satan. I choose myself first always.
Have no pity for those mired in the prophet delusion, content to be servile for a lifetime; tis better to be king for a day
I would start at A, to rule out any natural explanations. Then I would move to B and if I got into heaven I would try to confirm my suspicion of C. If God turns out to be like he is in the Bible, you can always get kicked out like Satan. In between B and C I would stock up on supplies, weapons and ammunition.
I also have to admit that the whole rapture thing kind of pisses me off. It seems like the rapture is the only time God offers 100% proof of his existence and those who don't get raptured get a second chance, something not offered to anyone else.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
ROFL, that's the funniest thing I've heard all day...stock up on weapons in heaven. I'm sure God has plenty of guns for us up there, lol
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The Raptures myth is escapism in its purist form. It's a fairy tale draped over the framework of reality.
It is little different than someone who uses alcohol or drugs to comfort themselves in the face of their world weary emotions. Karl Marx was at least correct in his assessment of religion as being a diversion used by the masses.
Nevertheless, no matter how comforting to the mind the Rapture is still a delusion.
Also, I live in the Bible Belt of America and am constantly bombarded by the never ending prognostications from preachers claiming Christ's second coming is only a heartbeat away ( ie, "It could happen today, praise Gawd ! " )
If I were able to live to a really, really old age I would make these Christians a hefty financial wager
that Jesus:
1.) will not return to Earth within their lifetimes.
2.) will not return to Earth within their children's lifetimes.
3.) will not return to Earth within their grandchildren's lifetimes.
4.) will not return to Earth even within their great-grand
children's lifetimes.
I have over twenty centuries of evidence on my side that Jesus isn't coming and all they have is empty promises that are still waiting to be fulfilled.
ps, if someone told me they were coming right back ( Matthew 16:28 ) and they kept me waiting for more than 2,000 years I might begin to doubt their credibilty... but then again that's the difference between reason and blind religious faith.
Doesn't seem to be terribly relevant. A thoughtful parent would have explained that it could be dangerous, and offered to explain to you how it worked, etc, maybe even demonstrate it if possible, rather than just tell not to touch it and refuse to explain why.
IOW they would respond to your desire for knowledge, as well as stopping you from doing something directly harmful. So they should actually give you even more knowledge about the thing, including knowledge of how it could injure you, so you would be less likely to try such a action in future when they weren't around. On all counts, it reinforces the idea that withholding knowledge is more likely to be harmful.
So it was precisely your LACK of knowledge about the extinguisher that led you to try something dangerous.
Allowing humans to acquire knowledge, of what is beneficial and what is harmful would seem to be the best strategy, if the intention was to protect them from inadvertently getting themselves into trouble by innocently taking some course of action that was likely to lead to serious harm, like you with the extinguisher. If they could acquire that knowledge safely, as with the metaphorical eating of a fruit, seems better than letting them discover for themselves things like, say, jumping into deep water might lead to death by drowning...
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heyeverybody:
(going back up the page a bit) As far as why this question was posted, we would have to ask the Master Jedi about that. But all of the atheists here are treating it as a bit of fun because it is such a silly question (see my earlier post).
Burden of proof- once again theists don't seem to understand this. The burden lies with those trying to prove that something is so. If someone says that you are a murderer, it is not up to you to prove that you are not. If christians disappeared and someone hypothesized that this was because of God, that would fit the clues, at that stage we need to find more information and work out ways to test the theory.
About the fire extinguisher: the above posts are correct. I would also like to add that your parents did not then kick you out of their house.
The Christian god is petty, vindictive, jealous and ready to murder innocent people along with the ones he is pissed off at. He is also overly concerned with people's foreskins.
Does this really sound like the all powerful creator?
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51