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Family Values in the Bible.

Posted on: May 27, 2007 - 8:12pm

Dave_G

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Joined: 2007-04-21

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Family Values in the Bible.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.--19:18
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father -- 19:32
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose -- 19:33
Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father -- 19:34
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose -- 19:35
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. -- 19:36
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. -- 22:2
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. -- 22:10
And Rachel said, Therefore he shall lie with thee to night for thy son's mandrakes. -- 30:15
Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night. -- 30:16
Exodus
If thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.--4:23
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast.--12:12
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.--12:29
The LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast.--13:15
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.--21:15
And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.--22:24
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.--32:27
Leviticus
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.--20:9
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death.--20:12
If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they.--20:14
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--21:9
If thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee.--25:39
Of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families ... and they shall be your possession.--25:45
I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.--26:16
I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children.--26:22
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.--26:29
Numbers
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.--31:15-19
Deuteronomy
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.--2:34
And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.--3:6
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.--5:9
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself.--20:13-14
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--21:11-13
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated ....--21:15
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ....--22:13
I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city.--22:14-15
These are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.--22:18-21
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.--22:20-21
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die.--22:22
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--22:23-24
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation. -- 23:2
When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.--25:11-12
Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body.--28:18
Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her.--28:30
Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long.--28:32
Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.--28:41
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.--28:53
So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat.--28:55
The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them.--28:56-57
The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.--32:25
Joshua
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.--6:21
Judges
Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you.--19:24
But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning.--19:25
1 Samuel
And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies.--18:25
Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.--18:27
2 Samuel
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.--12:11
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.... And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.--12:14-15
And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.--13:11
Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house .... So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.--16:21-22
Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the Lord did choose.--21:6
1 Kings
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.--11:3
He laid the foundation thereof in Abiram his firstborn, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD.--16:34
Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.--21:29
2 Kings
As he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.--2:23-24
The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever.--5:27
This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him--6:28-29
They took the king's sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent him them to Jezreel.--10:7
Therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.--15:16
2 Chronicles
Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods. And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out.--21:14
Esther
Then said Esther, If it please the king ... let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows. And the king commanded it so to be done ... and they hanged Haman's ten sons--9:13
Psalms
Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.--109:10
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.--137:9
To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever.--136:10
Proverbs
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.--13:24
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.--22:15
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.--23:13-14
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.--30:17
Isaiah
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.--13:16
Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.--13:18
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.--14:21
Jeremiah
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine.--11:22
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land ... with drunkenness. And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.--13:13-14
And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.--14:16
Deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle.--18:21
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.--19:9
With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid.--51:22
Lamentations
Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children?--2:20
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.--2:21
The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat.--4:10
Ezekiel
The fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers.--5:10
Let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark.--9:5-6
And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.--23:25
And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters.--23:47
And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.--26:6
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.--38:21
Hosea
I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.--2:4
Therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.--4:13
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.--9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.--9:16
Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.--13:16
Amos
A man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name.--2:7
Zechariah
And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.--13:3
Matthew
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -- 10:35-36
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. -- 10:37
God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.--15:4
Mark
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.--7:10
Luke
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.--14:26
Revelation
I will kill her children with death.--2:23

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 6:39am #51

Jacob Cordingley

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So hang on. God created

So hang on. God created everything, except good and evil which always existed. Or are you saying they are human concepts? Well if they are human concepts why follow religious morality and not the infinitely better utilitarian/ consequentialist morality? Now you seem to be saying that morality does not come from God? Which contradicts the general position. It seems that you are changing your stance depending on the questions being asked. So God is above good and evil? I mean there are some things God does in the OT that are damn right dispicable! Genocide, endorsement of rape, megalomaniacal mind games. You cannot deny this! You say "it was taken out of context", would you care to tell me what the correct context is? If God is above good and evil, then why does he punish sin? Or is it just plain and simple vengeance for doing things that he doesn't like?

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 2:25pm #52

Susan

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tree-sitter wrote: The

tree-sitter wrote:

The best way to find God, is through prayer and fasting.

Two of the first things that are done when attempting to indoctrinate people is to deprive them of sleep and protein.

There are sources which substantiate this. Google lack sleep protein cult and you'll find quite a few.

Here's a few if you don't want to Google:

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

http://www.rickross.com/reference/singer/singer7.html

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/fundie_cults/index.htm

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 2:34pm #53

Jacob Cordingley

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Susan wrote: tree-sitter

Susan wrote:

tree-sitter wrote:

The best way to find God, is through prayer and fasting.
Two of the first things that are done when attempting to indoctrinate people is to deprive them of sleep and protein.
There are sources which substantiate this. Google lack sleep protein cult and you'll find quite a few.
Here's a few if you don't want to Google:
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
http://www.rickross.com/reference/singer/singer7.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/fundie_cults/index.htm

That's fairly interesting. Yup, deprive yourself of nutrients, let your brain disintergrate and you may just find God.

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 2:39pm #54

tree-sitter

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Susan wrote: tree-sitter

Susan wrote:

tree-sitter wrote:
The best way to find God, is through prayer and fasting.
Two of the first things that are done when attempting to indoctrinate people is to deprive them of sleep and protein.
There are sources which substantiate this. Google lack sleep protein cult and you'll find quite a few.
Here's a few if you don't want to Google:
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
http://www.rickross.com/reference/singer/singer7.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/fundie_cults/index.htm

Thats a good point, Susan. Let me refraise my comment by, in my Christian walk, the best why I have come through God is through prayer and fasting.

Actually, fasting is quite healthy for you. It's just starving thats the problem. When you fast, your body eats away at all the excess fat and stored up chemicals in your body. It's a great way to clean your body of all the nasty toxins that we eat on a daily basis in our food. Your body doesn't really start eating away at your muscle and protien untill after around 30 days... this is what starving is. Thats why you can go up to three weeks without food because you body spends all of it's time getting ride of all the nasty crap in your body. Right now, I am speaking in terms of phsyical health; for many fasting is quite benifical. It's not for everyone but I have found that it is really helped cure me of alot of my physical problems in the past.

Thats just me though. Peace

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 2:40pm #55

shikko

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Jacob Cordingley

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

rab wrote:

I get a kick out of people who complain about "taking the bible out of context." Put it in context and it's still about murder, mysogony, rape, infancide, and tribal warfare!

You forgot incest.

And Poland.

/lame first post.

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 2:54pm #56

Jacob Cordingley

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Where does it mention

Where does it mention Poland? Wasn't Europe just a place on the periphery of consciousness for the Jews of the time? Welcome Shikko.

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 3:03pm #57

shikko

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Jacob Cordingley

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

Where does it mention Poland? Wasn't Europe just a place on the periphery of consciousness for the Jews of the time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_forgot_Poland

I'll stop with the obscure, fleeting pop culture references now. 8^)

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 5:10pm #58

Jacob Cordingley

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Ah, I guess it didn't spread

Ah, I guess it didn't spread across the Atlantic. I'm not that well acquainted with the finer points of yank culture.

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 5:16pm #59

simple theist

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Jacob Cordingley wrote:So

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

So hang on. God created everything, except good and evil which always existed.

Good and evil are not things, they are concepts.

Quote:

Or are you saying they are human concepts?

I am saying that they are concepts. The concept of Good is defined by God. Evil is simply not doing what is good.

Quote:

Well if they are human concepts why follow religious morality and not the infinitely better utilitarian/ consequentialist morality?

I deny that utilitarian/consequentilist morality is greater then God's morality. God's morality is infinitely better then anyone other morality.

Quote:

So God is above good and evil? I mean there are some things God does in the OT that are damn right dispicable! Genocide, endorsement of rape, megalomaniacal mind games.

God does not endorse rape, murder, or mind games. Those verses were taken out of context, because God was not doing the actions, people were. God forgives anyone who is scincerly sorry that they commited an evil act.

Quote:

If God is above good and evil, then why does he punish sin? Or is it just plain and simple vengeance for doing things that he doesn't like?

I would say it is vengeance for doing things God hates.

You don't believe God exsists, therefore you believe God did not create evil. Evil therefore exists without God having made it. So why does evil exsist? Why would brain cells evolve to allow you to commit evil acts. Its only a matter of time before we humans destroy earth(of course I believe God will stop us from doing that). what is the definition of Evil...and who gets to decide on that definition.

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 5:17pm #60

Dave_G

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Those verses were taken

Awww... you want a cookie?

Quote:

Those verses were taken out of context,

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 5:43pm #61

jcgadfly

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wavefreak wrote: jcgadfly

wavefreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
The difference? We know when we're experiencing emotional gratification and not mistaking it for "truth" and the sole means of salvation for the human race.

Wow. So even your experience of the irrational is superior to theists? Fucking amazing.

Sorry for the derail but I have to ask this of this condescending asshat.

Where did you get the idea that emotions are irrational? Out of control emotions I can grant you but all of them, no.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 6:05pm #62

tree-sitter

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Dave_G

Dave_G wrote:

Awww... you want a cookie?

Quote:

Those verses were taken out of context,

The intellectual comeback of your statement is staggering... good job!

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 6:13pm #63

Dave_G

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tree-sitter wrote: Dave_G

tree-sitter wrote:

Dave_G wrote:

Awww... you want a cookie?

Quote:
Those verses were taken out of context,

The intellectual comeback of your statement is staggering... good job!

Damn right I did a good job fork over the cookie ho3.

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 6:21pm #64

tree-sitter

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Dave_G wrote: tree-sitter

Dave_G wrote:

tree-sitter wrote:
Dave_G wrote:

Awww... you want a cookie?

Quote:
Those verses were taken out of context,

The intellectual comeback of your statement is staggering... good job!

Damn right I did a good job fork over the cookie ho3.

LOL... Chocolate chip or Peanut butter?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 6:53pm #65

Jacob Cordingley

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simple theist wrote: Jacob

simple theist wrote:

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

So hang on. God created everything, except good and evil which always existed.
Good and evil are not things, they are concepts.

Are not concepts things? Concepts are constructs of consciousness, they start out in minds. Concepts do need creators whether you say the creator of a given concept is a magic sky-daddy or some bloke in the street, they do not float around in the air invisibly waiting for somebody to suddenly bump into them and define them.

simple theist wrote:

Quote:
Or are you saying they are human concepts?

I am saying that they are concepts. The concept of Good is defined by God. Evil is simply not doing what is good.

Of course it isn't. If I don't suddenly get up and try and raise a thousand pounds for starving people right now I'm not doing and evil act or a good act. There are evil acts, whatever you may define to be evil. If I were to go out and kill someone that wouldn't just be the absense of a good act that would be the presence of an evil act. Also, it is humans who define good and evil, not God, because God is a figment of your collective imaginations.

simple theist wrote:

Quote:
Well if they are human concepts why follow religious morality and not the infinitely better utilitarian/ consequentialist morality?
I deny that utilitarian/consequentilist morality is greater then God's morality. God's morality is infinitely better then anyone other morality.

Care to argue with an ethicist?

simple theist wrote:

Quote:
So God is above good and evil? I mean there are some things God does in the OT that are damn right dispicable! Genocide, endorsement of rape, megalomaniacal mind games.

God does not endorse rape, murder, or mind games. Those verses were taken out of context, because God was not doing the actions, people were. God forgives anyone who is scincerly sorry that they commited an evil act.

You cannot accept the literal truth of the bible and say that those lines are taken out of context! You could accept it metaphorically in some twisted way turning it to sound good. The point is if you actually read the thing it is evident that the bible does endorse rape, murder, genocide and does play mind games! Let me see, the Sodom story...

Ok, so two angels/ strangers (it translates as both) go down to visit this guy's house, a guy who is an upstanding moral person, one of God's favourites. Anyway so the village people, who are of course not very nice turn up and say "let us know (as in fuck) these angels/strangers" and the man, refusing this because well, the strangers/angels are male, offers them his wife, who they gang-rape continuously to the night until the next morning she crawls up to her husband's doorstep, all bloody and covered in semen and probably swimming with STDs and dies. Of course the man, who is a favourite of God isn't punished, the villagers are as is the wife are punished. It is a glorification of misogyny and while it serves as a message against gang-rape, does not punish the guy who offered his wife up to the party.

simple theist wrote:

Quote:
If God is above good and evil, then why does he punish sin? Or is it just plain and simple vengeance for doing things that he doesn't like?

I would say it is vengeance for doing things God hates.
You don't believe God exsists, therefore you believe God did not create evil. Evil therefore exists without God having made it. So why does evil exsist? Why would brain cells evolve to allow you to commit evil acts. Its only a matter of time before we humans destroy earth(of course I believe God will stop us from doing that). what is the definition of Evil...and who gets to decide on that definition.

That's a big cop-out! So you believe in a vengeful God? Why would an omni-benevolent God be vengeful? It just seems a bit immature and petty really. I'm sure you already have a concept of Evil. Your 10 commandments tell you things that God defines as evil.

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Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:11pm #66

Ghost Rider

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tree-sitter wrote: Fine, I

tree-sitter wrote:

Fine, I will explain it all and I don't even care what people have to say about it:
1. the incest between Lot and his daughters was involantary. His daughters got him drunk and basically raped him to keep there seed going... pretty disgusting. However, the bible is not saying that incest is a good thing, it is mearly documenting an event in history.

Involuntary? I'm not sure if you've ever been drunk before, but for Lot not to have noticed his own daughters taking turns with him in the sack, he would have had to have been in a frickin' coma... I've been so drunk that all I could do is lay in the floor and watch the world spin over my head, but I'd know if ANYONE was playing with my penis...

But it's funny that you didn't say anything about the RAMPANT INCEST that HAD to have happened if we're all born of Adam and Eve.

I'm not talking about getting daddy drunk and having your way with him here, we're talking about having children and then letting those children grow up, marry and have more incestious children who in turn grow up and repeat the cycle.

It's funny that you've no comment on the RAMPANT INCEST that is necessary in the "Global Flood" story... Again, in order for six couples to repopulate the Earth, there would have to have been a whole lot of incest...

Quote:

2. The old-judah laws concerning the killing of witches and homosexuals and people who disobey there parents are no longer in effect.

Good, so can you help us get the rest of your brothers in christ to stop attacking gays as an abomination? If Jesus really did negate Levitical Law and replaced it with "love everyone," than a I have a little more respect for this mythical character...

Thats not to say that the whole law is abolished, like many Christians believe. Only parts of it.

Holy Loopholes! There are loopholes in God's law?

Quote:

3. The verses about killing children are taken grossly out of context. If you look at what the bible is saying in those passages, it is describing the evil nation of Babylon being overcome by it's enemies.

Okay, how about Deut. 21:18-21 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they dicipline him... Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

How about II Kings 23 and 24?

There are countless other passages that one could quote to you from the word of god in which the context is simple: God says to kill children. Hell, god himself sends death apon all the first born children of egypt after he makes sure Moses won't get the answer he wants...

Quote:

As soon as I have some time, I am going to come back and overwhelm this forum with scriptures that prove you have taken this out of context. I feel that it is very important in all fairness. Peace.

I can't wait!

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:19pm #67

wavefreak

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jcgadfly wrote: wavefreak

jcgadfly wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
The difference? We know when we're experiencing emotional gratification and not mistaking it for "truth" and the sole means of salvation for the human race.

Wow. So even your experience of the irrational is superior to theists? Fucking amazing.

Sorry for the derail but I have to ask this of this condescending asshat.
Where did you get the idea that emotions are irrational? Out of control emotions I can grant you but all of them, no.

Oooo. Asshat, huh? School yard taunts.

"Now that's a big suprise. I'm gonna have a heart attack and die from that surprise"

- Iago the Parrot

Main Entry: con·de·scen·sion
Pronunciation: "kän-di-'sen(t)-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin condescension-, condescensio, from condescendere
1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2 : patronizing attitude or behavior

Since you're a superior atheist, I can't descend from my rank. So that leaves patronizing.

Main Entry: pa·tron·ize
Pronunciation: 'pA-tr&-"nIz, 'pa-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
1 : to act as patron of : provide aid or support for
2 : to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly
3 : to be a frequent or regular customer or client of

Not 1 or 3. Darn. 2 is a circular reference.

I think this is better:

Main Entry: sar·don·ic

Pronunciation: sär-'dä-nik
Function: adjective
Etymology: French sardonique, from Greek sardonios
: disdainfully or skeptically humorous : derisively mocking <a sardonic comment>

As for that emotion thing:

Main Entry: emo·tion·al·ist
Pronunciation: -shn&-list, -sh&-n&-list
Function: noun
1 : one who bases a theory or policy on an emotional conviction
2 : one prone to emotionalism

Hmmm ... don't see rational mentioned there.

Wow. I'm an asshat. I wonder if I can wear a thong on my head.

My Artwork

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:19pm #68

Ghost Rider

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wavefreak wrote: Oh. So

wavefreak wrote:

Oh. So atheists indulge in irrational emotianal gratification when it suits them? And yet they can't comprehend how someone can be a theist - it's just so irrational.

Theists aren't the only one who can do that you know...

Just because we don't believe in your myths doesn't mean that we can't have a little fun with them.

In all seriousness, everyone indulges in irrational emotional gratification every now and then... Theists do it all the time when confronted with what it ACTUALLY SAYS in the bible... God didn't mean that... That's the humans talking.... Jesus did away with that part... On and on.

His rejection of your mythology is very much the same as your dogmatic kung-fu grip on the same mythology. Reason and rational thinking when directed at religion, dogma and gods almost always leads to an agnostic or atheistic point of view.

Afterall, you're an agnostic or atheist when it comes to Zues or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:25pm #69

wavefreak

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Ghost Rider wrote: In all

Ghost Rider wrote:

In all seriousness, everyone indulges in irrational emotional gratification every now and then... Theists do it all the time when confronted with what it ACTUALLY SAYS in the bible... God didn't mean that... That's the humans talking.... Jesus did away with that part... On and on.
His rejection of your mythology is very much the same as your dogmatic kung-fu grip on the same mythology. Reason and rational thinking when directed at religion, dogma and gods almost always leads to an agnostic or atheistic point of view.
Afterall, you're an agnostic or atheist when it comes to Zues or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Aww man. FSM isn't real?

You over generalize when you lump me in with fundies. I think much in the bible is just flat wrong. You'll need to dig a little deeper before you know my kung-fu style.

My Artwork

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 8:24pm #70

Ghost Rider

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simple theist wrote:There

simple theist wrote:

There is a clear problem with taking verses out of context. Most of what you guys are talking about is simply recording historical events.

Zero Historical evidence of the slaughter of the innocents by King Herod.

Zero Historical evidence of the story of Exodus.

Zero historical evidence of the Flood story.

Zero historical evidence that the walls of Jericho where brought down by a bunch of people making a lot of noise.

Zero historical evidence of the conquests.

Zero historical evidence for the existance of a Man named Jesus who was the son of God. None...

I could go on and on, but the TRUTH is that the stories of the old testament as just that. Stories. In fact, many of them, including the flood story have existed longer and PREDATE the biblical versions by many, many years.

I'd agree that argueing about what amounts to who told the better campfire ghost story is a bit silly.

The point of bringing these verses to light is to make people read what's really IN THE BIBLE and start thinking about how silly it is to say that the bible is the source of all morality and the true, historical, and inerrant word of the creator of the universe.

Note: I musta hit the Chopin early because that was harder than hell to read, and I was the one who wrote it...

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:27pm #71

MattShizzle

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Why do Christians always say

Why do Christians always say certain OT laws no longer apply when Jesus himself said he came to uphold the laws and not change them, and he came to not change "One jot or tittle" of the old law?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:35pm #72

Sir Valiant for...

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It does, just some people

It does, just some people don't like what it says. I don't like it either, but I don't think that I am God.

To return to topic, why should I refute anything here when the very first point is derrived from a verse removed from context? You can get anything to say anything if you don't value context.

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 7:55pm #73

Ghost Rider

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simple theist wrote: Good

simple theist wrote:

Good and evil are not things, they are concepts.

By your very own arguement, God created those concepts. The act of creating an idea or concept that you KNOW would bring about the creation of an oposite idea or concept is still that act of creating BOTH concepts in the first place, ESPECIALLY if you have the creator of those concepts KNOWING FULL WELL what the end result would be.

Creating the concept of good means that you necessarily have created the concept that that which is not good...

Quote:

I am saying that they are concepts. The concept of Good is defined by God. Evil is simply not doing what is good.

This is what I call the Light and Darkenss arguement. Theists will generally argue that God created all the good stuff (i.e. the light) and that everything else just is (I.e. the darkness).

But for this arguement to work, you have to understand what the arguement means.

The natural state of the universe is a cold, empty, and dark void. If you introduce light, heat, matter and enrgy that void, you have the universe. But simply switching off all the light and heat and removing the energy and matter leaves you with the void.

To argue that god defined that which is good and brought it into existance is to also argue that the entire universe that god himself created has a natural state of evil. It's only by defining that which is good that knowledge of that which is Evil can be determined.

So the entire universe, by your own arguement was created in a natural state of evil...

Quote:

I deny that utilitarian/consequentilist morality is greater then God's morality. God's morality is infinitely better then anyone other morality.

If god's morality is presented to us in the bible, then his morality is inferior to modern understanding of morality and thus I reject it.

Though, if you do have a daughter, I'd be interested in buying her if the price is right... Smiling

Quote:

God does not endorse rape, murder, or mind games. Those verses were taken out of context, because God was not doing the actions, people were. God forgives anyone who is scincerly sorry that they commited an evil act.

If the bible is to be believed, then god was telling those people to do these things through his chosen leaders of his chosen people.

You can't have it both ways. Either Moses was recieving his ideas and commands from god, or he wasn't. If he was, then the commands to slaughter innocent children, murder mothers, kidnap and "have as your own" the virgin girls of other tribes, etc. are all endorsed by god himself.

If not, then you have a problem with your faith because Moses lied, King David lied, and on down the line.

Either the bible is the word of god or it isn't. If it is then EVERYTHING in it MUST be true.

Quote:

You don't believe God exsists, therefore you believe God did not create evil. Evil therefore exists without God having made it. So why does evil exsist? Why would brain cells evolve to allow you to commit evil acts.

Because evil is defined by society. PEOPLE have decided what is evil and what is bad behavior and we've passed those ideals down through history and we end up with the concepts of good and evil that we have today.

By today's standards, MUCH of the morality of the Bible is outdated and actually swings into the evil side...

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 8:05pm #74

Dave_G

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MattShizzle wrote: Why

MattShizzle wrote:

Why do Christians always say certain OT laws no longer apply when Jesus himself said he came to uphold the laws and not change them, and he came to not change "One jot or tittle" of the old law?

This is probally the best you will get:

Jesus said till these things have passed.

They passed when he said "it is finished"

So Christians is that it?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 8:07pm #75

tree-sitter

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MattShizzle wrote: Why do

MattShizzle wrote:

Why do Christians always say certain OT laws no longer apply when Jesus himself said he came to uphold the laws and not change them, and he came to not change "One jot or tittle" of the old law?

Jesus did not do away with the law but he did add new laws and change a couple. Such as;

1. Don't retaliate with any violence at all

2. Treat everyone the way you would want to be treated.

3. Don't stone adulterers or anyone else.

Other then that the law is still intact. Thats what he meant by fulfilling the law, some parts of it were no longer nessacary. We really can't pick and choose which ones we don't like but Jesus did make it pretty clear which ones were no longer in effect.

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 8:20pm #76

Ghost Rider

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wavefreak wrote: Ghost

wavefreak wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:
In all seriousness, everyone indulges in irrational emotional gratification every now and then... Theists do it all the time when confronted with what it ACTUALLY SAYS in the bible... God didn't mean that... That's the humans talking.... Jesus did away with that part... On and on.
His rejection of your mythology is very much the same as your dogmatic kung-fu grip on the same mythology. Reason and rational thinking when directed at religion, dogma and gods almost always leads to an agnostic or atheistic point of view.
Afterall, you're an agnostic or atheist when it comes to Zues or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Aww man. FSM isn't real?
You over generalize when you lump me in with fundies. I think much in the bible is just flat wrong. You'll need to dig a little deeper before you know my kung-fu style.

That's true. I didn't really mean to lump you in with the raving fundies that I normally talk to on a regular basis here in the bible belt... Sometimes I do tend to say "you" and generalize when I should be more specific and direct my comments instead of lumping everyone together.

I'll try not to let that happen again, I swear. Eye-wink

BTW, the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a really quick and highly entertaining book that I'd recommend to anyone.

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 29, 2007 - 8:28pm #77

Ghost Rider

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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

It does, just some people don't like what it says. I don't like it either, but I don't think that I am God.
To return to topic, why should I refute anything here when the very first point is derrived from a verse removed from context? You can get anything to say anything if you don't value context.

Cool enough. Please enlighten us to the context of which you speak that makes these verses seem less idiotic.

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 12:27am #78

simple theist

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Ghost Rider wrote: simple

Ghost Rider wrote:

simple theist wrote:

There is a clear problem with taking verses out of context. Most of what you guys are talking about is simply recording historical events.

Zero historical evidence for the existance of a Man named Jesus who was the son of God. None...

Ghost Rider wrote:

simple theist wrote:

There is a clear problem with taking verses out of context. Most of what you guys are talking about is simply recording historical events.

Zero historical evidence for the existance of a Man named Jesus who was the son of God. None...

Non-Christian References to Jesus

1) Josephus(Jewish Historian) mentions a man named Jesus who was called the Christ by some.

2) Tacitus mentions Jesus and claims that Jesus sufered "the extreme penalty." Tacitus then calls Christians Evil.

3)Pliny the Younger mentions that Christians chanted verses in honor of Christ as if to a god.

4)Phlegon mentions the eclipse and earthquake that took place when Jesus died.

5) The Talmud calls Jesus a false messiah who practiced magic and who was justly condemned to death.

6)Lucian of Samosata

7)Suetonius

8)Thallus

9)Mara Bar-Serapion

Christian References to Christ (within 200 years of Jesus' Birth)

1)Clement of Rome

2)Ignatius

3)Quadratus

4)Aristides

5)Justin Martyr

6)Hegesippus

There are still more people who were not christian that mention Jesus and the other events that you listed.

I challenge you to offer valid proof that these documents are fake. Explain why so many Jewish people followed a Messiah that was made up and not any of the other of false messiah's that have actually lived.

Quote:

The point of bringing these verses to light is to make people read what's really IN THE BIBLE and start thinking about how silly it is to say that the bible is the source of all morality and the true, historical, and inerrant word of the creator of the universe.

Then why do so many people that have read the bible still hold that it is the only authority.

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 12:37am #79

simple theist

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MattShizzle wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Why do Christians always say certain OT laws no longer apply when Jesus himself said he came to uphold the laws and not change them, and he came to not change "One jot or tittle" of the old law?

The old testement was written to Jews. Gentiles are required to follow what Jesus said, not the old testement laws. Some of the OT laws such as the ten commandments happen to further explain Jesus commandments and so they are often mentioned by gentiles. All OT Laws still apply to a Jewish person (Jesus is a permant sacrifce, so sacrificing animals is no longer required). Gentiles must obey the commandments from Jesus.

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 1:08am #80

Ghost Rider

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simple theist

simple theist wrote:

Non-Christian References to Jesus
1) Josephus(Jewish Historian) mentions a man named Jesus who was called the Christ by some.

You've not done your homework. The Josephus writtings you're mentioning are held to be forgeries or alterations of the writings of Josephus by later Christian Apologists.

If Josephus, a jew, had thought that the savior had come, why did he die and unrepentant Jew?

Quote:

2) Tacitus mentions Jesus and claims that Jesus sufered "the extreme penalty." Tacitus then calls Christians Evil.

This passage was written in 116 c.e. almost over 80 years after the supposed death of Jesus and is often considered to be more of a commentary on the cult of christ than a historical acknowlegment that Jesus was the son of God.

Quote:

4)Phlegon mentions the eclipse and earthquake that took place when Jesus died.

I'll quote from Richard Carrier:

Quote:

This leads us to the most important reason for supposing this line to be an insertion by someone other than Africanus (or Syncellus): Phlegon almost certainly said no such thing. Eusebius quotes Phlegon verbatim (the only one to do so), and what Phlegon actually said is telling--the text is attested in Syncellus in the original Greek, but also in the Latin of Jerome, the Syrian epitome, and the Armenian:
Jesus Christ..underwent his passion in the 18th year of Tiberius [32 AD]. Also at that time in another Greek compendium we find an event recorded in these words: "the sun was eclipsed, Bithynia was struck by an earthquake, and in the city of Nicaea many buildings fell." All these things happened to occur during the Lord's passion. In fact, Phlegon, too, a distinguished reckoner of Olympiads, wrote more on these events in his 13th book, saying this: "Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [32 AD], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour [noon] that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."
This quotation shows that Phlegon did not mention Jesus in this context at all (he may still have mentioned him in some other obscure context, if we believe Origen). Rather, Phlegon merely recorded a great earthquake in Bithynia, which is on the coast of the Black Sea, more than 500 miles away from Jerusalem--so there is no way this quake would have been felt near the crucifixion--and a magnificent noontime eclipse, whose location is not clear. If the eclipse was also in Bithynia, as the Phlegon quote implies but does not entail, it also could not have been seen in Jerusalem, any more than partially, since the track of a total eclipse spans only 100 miles and runs from west to east (Jerusalem is due south).

Again, no evidence for Jesus, only for an earthquake over 500 miles away and an eclipse.

Quote:

If this event really happened, then you wouldn't need to reference
5) The Talmud calls Jesus a false messiah who practiced magic and who was justly condemned to death.
6)Lucian of Samosata
7)Suetonius
8)Thallus
9)Mara Bar-Serapion

I'll let someone who's a bit more "learned" about the histriocity arguement take up this bit of the arguement.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html

Quote:

I challenge you to offer valid proof that these documents are fake. Explain why so many Jewish people followed a Messiah that was made up and not any of the other of false messiah's that have actually lived.

Explain to me why so many died in Waco Texas believing that David Coresh <sp> was Jesus? People die for silly religious beliefs all the time. More tellings than a relative few who died because of they claimed to be Christians is the fact that a great many more had no faith or belief in Jesus at all.

If the Jewish Christ had indeed been born and rose up, you would think that almost EVERY jew would be chomping at the bit to convert. Not suprisingly they didn't because they didn't believe in Jesus any more than we do.

Quote:

Then why do so many people that have read the bible still hold that it is the only authority.

Dogmatic belief, the inability to reason, having been indoctrinated since birth, being affraid to step away, being fed the fear of hell, etc.

All it took to convert me from Christianity was sitting down and reading Levitius at a young age and not just accepting and reading the passages that my preacher tossed at me in church.

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 8:08am #81

BenfromCanada

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wavefreak wrote: jcgadfly

wavefreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
The difference? We know when we're experiencing emotional gratification and not mistaking it for "truth" and the sole means of salvation for the human race.

Wow. So even your experience of the irrational is superior to theists? Fucking amazing.

What the fuck? Nobody said that. People have emotions, we indulge in them. It's when we use them to replace things like logic that we're screwing up.

Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 10:39am #82

jcgadfly

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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
The difference? We know when we're experiencing emotional gratification and not mistaking it for "truth" and the sole means of salvation for the human race.

Wow. So even your experience of the irrational is superior to theists? Fucking amazing.
What the fuck? Nobody said that. People have emotions, we indulge in them. It's when we use them to replace things like logic that we're screwing up.

Especially when the silly boy forgets that all emotions stem from chemical changes in body and/or brain.

But hey, he wants to call himself superior by attempting sarcasm by an overkill on the groveling, that's his business.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 11:03am #83

Jacob Cordingley

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simple theist wrote: I

simple theist wrote:

I challenge you to offer valid proof that these documents are fake. Explain why so many Jewish people followed a Messiah that was made up and not any of the other of false messiah's that have actually lived.
Then why do so many people that have read the bible still hold that it is the only authority

Why do so many people believe in Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism and any other religion?

A lot of people in the South Pacific believe that an American soldier called John Frum (who quite probably didn't exist) will come back to them as the chosen one of the Gods, that he will come bearing gifts of cargo including magical boxes of moving pictures. They also make model rifles out of wood and parade up and down in a military fashion to try and summon the Gods (because that's what they thought the Westerners were trying to do when they were serving on the islands during WWII. There are a lot of cargo cults around, several of them worshipping John Frum, but all of them having contradictory views on who this John Frum actually was.

Why do they believe this? Well partly it is because they had no idea about western technology or warfare, and the ships always came bearing these great radios and televisions and this seemed like the most reasonable explanation. Partly it is because they didn't bother to look. Part of it now is indoctrination of the younger generations.

Why is Christianity any different? You might say: "Because Christianity is actually true." Evidence please.

Atheist Books

Posted on: May 30, 2007 - 1:49pm #84

simple theist

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Ghost Rider I have done my

Ghost Rider I have done my homework and the things I've read have offered proof the documents are real. You however have only claimed they are fake and not offered me any proof beyond your words.

Posted on: June 1, 2007 - 4:13am #85

Ghost Rider

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simple theist wrote: Ghost

simple theist wrote:

Ghost Rider I have done my homework and the things I've read have offered proof the documents are real. You however have only claimed they are fake and not offered me any proof beyond your words.

Did you read my post? I provided a couple links that refute a few of your points. I'm not an expert on textual critisism, but I've read enough work and listened to enough scholors to see where the evidence leads.

Even christian scholors hold Josephus to be a forgery... For the most part anyway.

I would defer you to someone who knows more about all te other references you made.

Who needs God when you have Chopin?

Posted on: June 1, 2007 - 2:21pm #86

Dave_G

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simple theist wrote: Ghost

simple theist wrote:

Ghost Rider I have done my homework and the things I've read have offered proof the documents are real. You however have only claimed they are fake and not offered me any proof beyond your words.

Simple (minded) Theist come to the webcam room tonight and debate Rook Hawkins hehas done more research than you i'm sure.

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