wow.. nice response Vorax. i really didn't mean for you to read that much into that, lol. i was trying to say that if we see a rock.. we develope rational evidence about what a rock is. we have a personal experience with that rock... not that stories where passed down about a rock.

thank you for bringing that to my attention. i can understand where you are going. i have personal experience with God and that is left up to each of you to question it. i don't want to tell my daughter that i believe in God so she should. i want her to question for herself and experience for herself. if she took my word she wouldn't really know God like i do and that would defeat the purpose.

yet... would many non-beilevers still believe if they had no reason? if so why did we first start questioning?

For me, what impacted me most, was learning about people of the world.  Ghandi was the start of my disconnect with my church.  I couldn't reconcile him going to hell.  The idea that this supreme god would send Ghandi to hell just because he didn't believe in him was just unreasonable.  I refused to believe that god would be so closed-minded and ignorant of the world to value faith over deeds.  I then started thinking about other religions and how close their faiths are.  Being a Roman Catholic these 'similar' religions were not acceptable and would all go to hell as well.  I just didn't get it.  You play a game of telephone with a group of kids and the message from one end to the other gets distorted.  Why was it not reasonable to assume that in different areas of the world that people would get a slightly different story from the same source?

Religious faiths just seemed too closed-minded.  Surely if I could see the good in people and the similarities in religion god would be able to? Why would god preach love and then not accept a difference in the spelling of his name? It just didn't make sense.

From there I slowly seperated myself from the church.  Awhile later I just stopped believing in god.  Nothing specific to transition from the churches god and no god existing...it just didn't seem sensible to believe in a god once I gave up belief in the god i was raised with.

See, I have to be an atheist because I have never had a single experience in my 43 years that ever made me wonder if there was 'something more' or a 'higher power' anything even close to that.

I've seen my fair share of strange things, like seeing the musical genius Dika Newlin (60 year old punk rocker, student of Arnold Schoenburg, VCU music composition professor) bleed from her cheeks after drinking too many beers and noting that the blood streaks matched the color of her back-length wig.

The epitome of strange? yes. Life-changing religious experience? no.

do you want a life-changing religious experience?

 

Yes and your point is? I am in a long-term relationship right now. I am able to look at our relationship and see if this relationship is a good realtionship. I don't have to include my emotions in it. Does she communicate with me? Do i with her? I am able to use my knowledge of relationships to critque and determine if the relationship is worth sustaining and i am able to decide what we might improve, but if she starts abusing me or i her i will see that i either need to change or the relationship is unsalvageable. 

I don't see how it's a matter of wanting. It's basically the same question as do I want to see a ghost or do I want to see the Loch Ness monster. If it's not real, I hope I don't see it because if I do then something is wrong with me.

If it's real and I don't see it...that applies to billions of things...it does not mean it's not real but that it is something I never saw.

There are differences though. If I saw the Loch Ness monster, it would not change the way I think of the world. It would only be another species to add to the list.

If I saw a ghost, I would almost certainly have to rethink certain things about how I have organized reality, but even in this case there could be a 'normal' answer somewhere that explains how there are ghosts.

But to see god, that would have to destroy my world. But I'm certainly not beyond letting it be destroyed. If it brings me closer to to reality, I'd be glad to have my world destroyed.

If there is a god, I'd love for him to come over here and destroy my world. Ball's in his court.

I try very hard to not see or fail to see things based on whether I do or do not want to see them. In the end I'd rather know a painful truth than a pleasant lie.

i really don't have a point, please forgive me if i intrude.

do you love her? if she was to lose her voice or became paralyzed would you still love her? if she became moody and irrational would u still love her? is she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen... do you love her flaws, do you long for her presents? do you feel completely happy with her and want to cherish her for the rest of your life?

you approached the topic of love very logical. i promise i am not setting a trap for you. i don't have a juicy nugget of "retaliation" in the back of my mind. i'm just asking questions that are coming from my feelings. if you wish not to discuss any more on this topic i will let it go.

your previous response posed the thought about personal relationships of an individual and i'm just curious if you was to write a love letter to her, what would it sound like?

that is interesting Vorax, thank you. i understand the atheist definition of a life-changing realization a bit better now.

since this is a "heart to heart" and i going to pose a "what if" question. i am not trying to set you up for anything, i am only curious at your response. i've heard others before post on here that if their was a God, they still wouldn't worship him anyways. that is the basis of why i ask the following;

what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

 

I hope you don't mind me answering this too. If i could not explain it i would realize that that doesn't mean some incoherent "sky daddy" isn't an explanation.  I have never heard of an expereince that i would say "oh all that logic and stuff pfft thats not the way to knowledge or the best way i must have faith". Nothing that i've ever thought of as an expereince would make me believe in an non-answer aka god. There is a natural explantion for everything, we just may not know it. 

I know this was directed at Vorax, but I'm going to answer and if you don't care, you can just ignore me.

If something happened that I could not explain, I would look for an explanation. I don't think there is anything that would make me go crazy and reject reason, science, or even my unbelief.

Vorax.. just out of curiosity do you remember what the conversation with the old man was about?

I think it was about how wild it was to me that I was out of my body. I remember walking around thinking this is amazing and conveying that to this man, other then that I'm not sure. I also, know that for a moment I felt parazlized in my own body and had what felt like trouble breathing before I got up and walked away from my body. Turns out, these are very typical symptoms of waking dreams and have been observed in sleep studies.

I had another one since then (around the age of 22), but I was very aware of it when I did. I knew what was going on, but it was still an increidble experience. Being conscious of the illusion and what was happening, I used the opportunity to study the experience. It's was all very cool because for a few minutes you are actually in another reality, you are lucid, aware and alert, but the entire experience is in your head. It's like the ultimate reality dream because your brain is dreaming, but your consciousness is fully active. You are quite litterally half asleep. It's very hard to describe if you've never had one - I would love to experience it again because the feeling you have while it's happening is amazing and it gives you a glimpse into a world where anything is possible, and I mean anything (when it happened again, I dared myself to walk through a wall, and I did )

LOL.. vorax. i too have had similar experiences. the first time for me it was a voice talking to me and pushing me down "out of" my body. my legs and waist sunk down into the mattress and was listening to him talk about what was possible outside my body. he told me to visualize my radio and when i did, it was like my face slammed into it and turned it on. i freaked out, tried to move but was paralyzed. he kept telling me to relax, calm down... and as i did, i felt like a guitar string plucked really hard, vibration slowly coming to a stop. it is a very calming experience except for afterwards i had a headache and i pulled a muscle in my leg trying to get up.

who knows what these really are. i guess some things are left up to personal interpretation. though not proven, i have heard that if you work at it, you could "have these dreams" anytime you want but i prefer that they come to me naturally.

Hey pariahjane. I wanted to find you on another blog to prove to you that I am not just a one hit wonder but really want to understand atheism.  That is why I came here.  Your response to this thread was what I wondered about athests.  My idea was that people hate the church and thus explain away God.  You shared some pretty tough thoughts about the church creating bigotry, sexism and hatred.  I probably wouldn't want to serve a God that I believe starts all that crap either.  I know a lot of Christians who serve the world's needs and a lot that are self-centered and could care less about the needy.  I don't base my faith on experiences of people but my personal relationship with Jesus.  I talk to Him and he talks to me.  I might sound like a head case, but that is what I sometimes believe about people that could not believe in a God that I find so logical.  The one thing that is tough for me to understand is why atheists are so confident in their minds and logic.  I know some people that have crazy logic that has lead them to all sorts of ridiculous ends.  I need something outside this crazy world because it just doesn't make sense times.

thanks for the honesty pile. it seems that you could have used a good release and although slightly bruised i am glad that i could be the object of your aggression.

now look deeply into my eyes.... it's okay, i still love you. 

honestly debate wasn't the "point" of this post. i wanted people to express their feelings in an open atmosphere.

i am still a little unsure of what you want to talk about. if you could please, get your thoughts together and we will continue this interesting conversation in a separate post. i am a particular person and i do not want to cheapen your thoughts by posting them on the 3rd page of a thread that has nothing to do with the topic.

i will keep my eyes open for your new post and i am sorry if i patronized you... but as non confrontational that i may seem, i have never had a problem defending my faith.

 

EDIT:  it's grammar... my index finger is being lazy again. 

i can understand what you are saying.  i don't think this will help, but i feel i have personal proof that God exists.  i only wish that i could share it with you. i accept the fact that it is irrational for me to say that is a reason for you to believe yet i just can't agree with the summary it is because "simply" i want to.

i pose that it may be irrational for me to ask you to believe but i would have to conclude it is rational for me to believe... if that makes sense.  it would be unfair for me to say that you don't believe in God simply because "you want to".  that could be misjudging your rationality and ability to question.

i just got though watching an episode of "Ghost Hunters" on scifi. i feel they truly try to approach the topic rationally and debunk claims of ghosts.  even they run into things they can't rationally explain.  if someone has an experience like that, they could still be a rational person, yet have an event in their lives they can not explain. again, it would be unfair to resolve that they believe simply because they want to.

i don't want you to think that i believe only in feelings.  i also don't think that one should believe only in "rational" terms.  as you said the evidence "points away from" but is not able to refute the proof of the supernatural.  we have to sides to our brain logic and feelings.  i think it would be unwise to brush off our feelings so quickly without first seeking answers.  i believe that logic and feelings both are subject to human error but we all have, and have a right, to our perspective... that includes not forcing it on others, which i truly hope i have not done.

i am trying to say that we should be able to talk about our ideas.  we all know that i can't prove God likewise you can not disprove God.  sometimes i feel i am fighting for my right to believe in God but it's only fair considering that you are fighting for your right not to believe in Him.  our views aside, we can have a honest productive conversation on the matter.  i do value your input and hope i did not "dr. phil" any of this.

as with my quote, if needed to be explained into terms of logical i would say;

 all i can do is tell you why i believe what i do but everyone has their own personal questions to find answers.

i think one problem both sides have is the lack of questions we ask... we both tend to have a lot of answers. no matter if it is wrong or right, each answer could lead to more questions. we stop growing when we stop seeking answers for questions.

 i don't want to offend but perhaps maybe some people just are happy where they are and stopped asking questions.

Have you ever considered that it may be your unconscious (in one way or another), which most definitely is a mystery to man but which can probably be explained rationally someday?

Nope, actually they are a bit different.. unconscious was from Jung, subsconscious from Freud The subconscious is a bit more heirarchial, structured and separate, where the unconscious is more part and parcel to the conscious. When you calculate arithmatic, you do so unconsciously. Body functions comprise much of the unconscious, and is indeed even involved in thinking (primarily viscera). You're right that they refer to the same thing, just different descriptions, of which I find "unconscious" to be more accurate and helpful.

When you engage in such things, it can be easy to see such things as a separate entity - after all, the thoughts seem to come out of nowhere. To enter any kind of "communication" with it, you must give up conscious notions of "control" - thereby "humbling yourself". Sound familiar? After all, you can't control the more complex parts of the physical brain with conscious thoughts alone. Learn to work with it, however, and the mysticism evaporates. For me it also evaporates many existential anxieties. That's obviously a simplified description, but I have no real desire to go into great detail. The point, however, is that the same kind of personal expeiences ultimately led me to the opposite conclusion, albeit after quite some time and (non?) effort. Some Zen Buddhist concepts helped here, but they have a different perspective (and very different goals) than I do.

A question to ponder then: if a person disengages their conscious from unfavorable natural instincts in favor of a small subset of positive emotions, then considers unconscious impulses as the divine word of god, what do you think would be the result of instinctual and primitive responses to perceived threats/challenges from an "out-group"?

Jumping in...

There is no reason to think there's a god, end of story. No emotional problems need to exist or have existed to be an atheist. Therefore "your idea" which I've heard many times before is just plain wrong.

I have had no experiences of faith, no experiences of Jesus, no experiences of a god or a higher power etc. It only makes sense for me to be an atheist.

Those people with 'crazy logic' were not actually employing logic because logic is not crazy. Logic is NOT just one person thinking he makes sense. This is where your mistake is.

Wanting something "outside this world" when it doesn't make sense doesn't make it so.

I see the central theme of your "idea" now. Since you believe things based on what you want or don't want, atheists must think the same way. No. Most of us are atheists precisely because we try to not let what we want and don't be a factor in what we believe.

You will of course disagree, but your own post shows you are conflicted on the matter. On the one hand you say you have experiences supporting your belief. On the other you say you want to believe in something that makes sense when the world you live in doesn't make sense.

You can't have it both ways. Interestingly enough, logic is the very thing that could get you out of this dilemma...but you attack it. Like quitting a good course of treatment for a disease, you have trashed the cure.

It is until someone shows better logic. 

Logic is a tool.  An argument can be sound based upon the premises' truth and the validity of the conclusion from the premises.

 The validity of a conclusion is dependent on whether the conclusion follows from what is said in the premises as being the necessary result of their implications.  the number of logical fallacies that people refer to talk about problems with validity or the strength of our certainty about the premises' truth.

 Logic is neither correct or incorrect. Logic is a tool that is used well or not, and even a well-used tool can make objects that are not sufficient for the task they were intended for.  Using the best tools available to make a house out of cardboard won't make you a sturdy house.  

It is the methodology of how we obtain the information that we use as premises in our logical arguments, then the validity of the structure of said arguments, that make the argument.

 But, to get to the thread's topic....

I think religion was a good attempt to answer some questions thousands of years ago.  When our methodologies were insufficent to conceive of or use the methods we have now (and are still improving!), we used our imagination and inferences from what we did understand.  It is an outgrowth of psychological needs, tendencies of thought, and social factors that developed into an activity that has entrenched itself in us psychologically, ethically, socially, politically, etc.

Some people have realized this and have been able to step outside of the need for these behaviors that are so engrained into human cultures and psychology.  Granted, religion has also evolved such that the poor use of methodology and logic has also escaped these behaviors, but the porr methodology and logic still remains.

I think, as my signature says, that religion has asked many good questions, but the answers are lacking when compared to the asnwers of the scientific method, rational thought, and ultimately a naturalistic worldview.   I don't dislike religion or the religious per se.  Rather, I dislike what the religious do when buried in religious activity.

 

I can't really respond to this the way you might want me too, because I never believed in religion in my entire life. All the things I have against religion came with knowledge of what religions are doing and have done throughout history. All of which came much later than my disregard for a belief in a deity, which I would attribute to my mind being incapable of warping itself around the idea.
The more I learn about religion, the more I am against it. It's morals are generally said to be absolute, when many of those same morals are against my own morality. As well as the morality of competing religions.
It seeks an end to diversity of thought, by forcing all to believe in it or suffer it. Worse, it seeks an end to thought, by suggesting it is the only possibility.
It by necessity wars against science and progress when science and progress says it's wrong, or it will fall into obscurity.
It fosters an "us against them" attitude whenever competing viewpoints come into play.

Against all of this and more: there is not a single thing that religion has ever done that was good for all and was done soley in the name of religion, not the desires of those taking part in the action or for the betterment of those taking it. No church has ever taken it's riches and gone into a poor country and made it better. The most they're ever willing to do is make words and throw a few dollars, making sure that anyone recieving those dollars watches a video on their religion.

Dunno... would I be having a stroke at the time?  Then probably not.

If it were something non-dangerous... then the answer is "Perhaps... but what does that matter?"  I'd still not have any grounds to believe it was absolute truth; it might feel wonderful, scary, etc... but it's still simply my limited perspective.