Where is the Metajustification? aka,
Offline ... a really big mess.
I originally brought this point up on Theologyweb, and the discussion grew... well, ornery and confused:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=92106
"I've been having some serious difficulties getting across a few problems I have found with some apologetic 'tricks' as practiced by many on this board. The shifting of burdens tends to rear it's head too often for it just to be coincidence; many theists assume the 'default' setting of inquiry to the the presupposition of either their god's existance, the validity of their metaphysical schema, and/or their justificational methodology pertaining to what counts as 'evidence' for their claims (and they ARE claims) and how that applies to matters of the absolute. How could someone use empirical events (or anything else worldly) to verify the existence of specific metaphyscial entities?
Example: Someone claims Jesus rose from the dead, and says that is proof that the Christian metaphyscial schema is 'True'. Ok... suppose I ignore the uncertainties/provisionalities of thier empirical verification problems, and all the natural possibilities that could account for such an event... and just GRANT that something 'non-natural' occurred. All right then, they're validated, right?
Wrong. How does a particular non-natural event manifested in the physical world indicate a particular metaphyscial schema rather than another? By what methodology does one verify empirical-to-metaphyscial correspondances, and how what that methodology justified itself???"
I brought up this point to illustrate how christians are still grasping at straws even provided that the extrordinary biblical 'events' occurred... the reaction was unproductive at times; what do all of you think about my analysis?
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If I understand you clearly, any of this could be "true"
Jesus rose from the dead, therefore he is the messiah.
Jesus rose from the dead, therefore he is a really cool guy.
Jesus rose from the dead, therefore he is gonna make it big in Hollywood.
Basically, the non-natural event implies whatever you want? The problem I see with this is that the resurrection in the Christian schema is not something taken in isolation. It is presumably the culmination of a series of events and prophecy fullfillment. So the resurrection is more like finding the Higgs boson - it just confirms what is already in their schema.
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It is impossible to rise from the dead. We are talking about three days without food and water and after being crucified by professional crucifiers, so he was dead. Now if someone did rise from the dead, he would have to done so by some other means beyond the physical world. Even more impressive is that he said he was going to die and rise three days later. While alive he gave great insight to God and did many other miracles. He always said that he was doing the father's work and not his own and many people were healed because they had faith. So if this man really did come back from the dead, then odds are he is who he said he was.
Ehhh... not quite; after all, each of these series of prophesy culminations could mask a different metaphyscial 'whatever'... Loki and Set could very well have set up the prophesies in advance... they aren't seperate indicators of metaphysical authinticity, as they are bound in with the original religious schema and could have easily been given as additional 'tricks' alongside the resurrection.
Ummm... says who? All these fantastic acts, insights, and predictions could very well have been given by some form of supernatural deciever/trickster/other. What justifiable reason do I have to believe the claims of this extrordinary being outside of 'his' ability to do the extrordinary?
There's no reasonable connection between these events and his true, but otherwise unverifiable nature. Even the 'odds' cannot be computed... how woulod we know the probabilities here, since we know nothing more of this hypothetical metaphysical state-of-affairs or how other metaphysics may stack up?
-Or Jesus is one of the immortals in "Highlander" (great movie) and can only be killed by having his head removed - He was just resting for those 3 days.
-Or noone really dies. Eveyone else who stayed dead are simply too lazy to get back up.
-Or it was really a clone of jesus sent back from the future by scientist conducting an elaborate 2000 year world-wide psychological experiment.
Once you invoke magic anything is possible. thus making the chances of the one you chose being right infinitisimal.
Scientific logic goes out the window if we allow for magical beings doing whatever the hell they like, so you certainly cant use it to proove the existence of one.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
the whole thing has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Never in human history have we had good reason to believe anyone anywhere was ressurected after death, although there have been countless tales of such, so how can anyone commit to the abstract idea of Jesus being ressurected before first looking at the very real possibility that story holds as much creedance as any of the other ressurection stories told throughout the years?
The body of the jesus was never found that in itself tells me the body was stolen not risen. When the jesus appeared to his disciples I think if I remember correctly they didn't recognize him at first. Seems to me anyone who wanted theis new religion to take off could have impersonated him. Plus no one else saw the supposed resurected jesus other than his disciples, mary and his mother.
Also if the body did resurrect why have it go straight up in the clouds (heaven) why not let it (him) stay here on earth for future generations to see? Where is the proof other than the bible this person did rise from the grave after 3 days of being beaten nearly to death then crucified?
I am not jewish so I never read the Torah and wouldn't know how to but wouldn't his crusifixion at least be there or in Roman History or somewhere in history of what Pontius Pilot did for the crowd and Rabbi's. Wuoldn't the Rabbi's keep a detailed record of this man and what the followers had to say to show how he was a threat to their religion, commandments, covenant with their god not to mention their own power over the people?
I brought this up before with christians and was doing pretty good until a christian said, well if you were Pontius Pilot would you admit you saw him? my answer no probably not but then if I were the impersonator would I take the chance he would crucify me just like he did the jesus? um no I wouldn't take that chance. I would only go to the people I knew who loved, trusted and would protect the Jesus and myself due to believing I was actually him.
Bottom line - Body stolen, impersonator takes place, only witnesses are trusted protecting friends and doesn't stick around to get crucified in his place. What the hell were they smokin / drinkin to think they saw his body float up in the sky and hear some angel tell them he would be back. If this jesus was real he couldn't have the authority/leadership/power he wanted in life so made sure he at least had it in his death.
Indeed... you open up the possibilities to infinity, and diminish the chance of any sort of verification to zip.