Atheism

kingneb
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Atheism

Atheists are people who assert that there is no God. They may say that atoms or their component parts in space makeup the sum total of all reality. Whatever the analysis, these people assert that finite physical reality is all there is-that there is nothing else. There are several divisions in this group. One historically prominent group is the Logical Positivists. By an analysis of language, they conclude that theology is not so much false as it is plain nonsense. To them, speaking of God is like saying that the typewriter is the bluish-green sound of the square root of minus one. Theology is not good enough even to be false; it is simple nonsense. Other devotees of scientism are not Logical Positivists. Their theories are called naturalism or humanism, and they would call theology bigoted falsehood. Various political liberals are atheists, and often their socialistic creed attacks theology as a reactionary hindrance to social advancement.

Pantheism and Agnosticism

It is instructive to distinguish between two forms of atheism, for the second form, pantheism, has the appearance of believing in God very much. It indeed asserts the existence of God, and the theory can be called theology. These people do not want to be known as atheists or as irreligious. But they define God as all that exists. Spinoza used the phrase Deus sive Natura: God, that is to say, Nature. Some may use the term Pure Being, or theologian Paul Tillich's phrase, The Ground of All Being. Thus God is the universe itself. He is not its Creator. Since they say that God is the All, these people are called Pantheists.

Logically there is no difference between Atheism and Pantheism. To deny that there is a God and to apply the name God to everything are conceptually identical. For example, it is as though I should assert the existence of a grumpstein and try to prove it by pointing to giraffes, stars, mountain ranges, and books: together they form a grumpstein, I would say, and therefore a grumpstein exists. The pantheists point to giraffes, stars, and so on, and say, therefore God exists. Those who deny God-atheists-and those who say God is everything-pantheists-are asserting that nothing beyond the physical universe is real. In Christian language, and in common languages around the world, God is as different from the universe as a star is from a giraffe and more so.

There is actually another variety of atheism, though the adherents themselves might strongly object to being called atheists. Technically they are not atheists, though they might as well be. These are the agnostics. They do not assert that there is a God, nor do they assert that there is no God; they simply say that they do not know. They claim ignorance. Ignorance, however, is not a theory one can argue. Ignorance is an individual state of mind. An ignorant person is not required to prove by learned arguments that he is ignorant. He just does not know. Such a person needs to be taught.

Probably most persons in the United States are atheists of a sort. If one should ask them, they would probably say that they believe in God. But they might as well not believe in God for all the good it does them. Unless someone mentions God to them, they never think of him; they never pray to him; he does not enter into their daily plans and calculations. Their lives, their minds, their thinking are essentially no different from the lives of atheists and agnostics. They are "practicing atheists."

The Atheist's Argument

The reader of this may expect to find a straightforward refutation of atheism. But he may be disappointed, for the situation is somewhat complicated. In the first place, one might accuse the atheist of never having proved that the physical universe is the only reality and that there are no supernatural beings. This would be satisfactory, if the term atheism means the argued denial of a Deity. But atheists, like agnostics, shift the burden of proof and say the theist is under obligation to demonstrate the truth of his view; but the atheist considers himself under no such obligation. Atheists usually wobble back and forward. Yet, Ernest Nagel, who may be called a naturalist in philosophy, seems to argue: "the occurrence of events [he means each and every event without exception]...is contingent on the organization of spatio-temporally located bodies.... That this is so is one of the best-tested conclusions of experience.... There is no place for an immaterial spirit directing the course of events, no place for the survival of personality after the corruption of the body which exhibits it."

This is an atheistic, not an agnostic, statement. He argues that science has proved the nonexistence of God, but the argument is invalid. No scientist has ever produced any evidence that man's intellect ceases to function at death. Since his methods have not discovered any spirit, Nagel assumes there can be none. He refuses to question his methods. Atheism is not a conclusion developed by his methods; rather it is the assumption on which his methods are based.

The agnostic, however, is not so dogmatic. He shifts the burden and demands theists prove that an omnipotent spirit has created and now controls the universe. This is quite a challenge, and it is one that the Christian is duty bound to face. No Christian with intellectual ability can excuse himself by claiming theology is useless hairsplitting. Peter has warned him otherwise. The "practicing atheists" are really agnostics, and we must preach the Gospel to them-and that God omnipotent reigns is part of the Gospel. But they answer, "How do you know that there is any God at all?" A Christian who knows no theology is ill equipped to answer this question. How is it possible to know God? Is he just a trance, a hunch, an ecstatic experience? Is he so transcendent that we can neither know him nor talk about him? Is he not so transcendent? Note that the Christian apologete, i.e., the Christian evangelist, must have a decently clear conception of God before he can satisfy his inquisitors. He must be knowledgeable in theology.

The Wrong Reply

Now, the answer to the agnostic's very pertinent question is rather complex, and the reader must not expect anything simple. Furthermore, the answer given here will appear unsatisfactory and disappointing to some very honest Christians. For these reasons the present reply to agnosticism will begin with an explanation of how not to answer the question. If this seems a cumbersome and roundabout way of going at it, and the impatient non-theologian wants immediate results, it must be pointed out that the initial choice between two roads determines the destination. Choose the wrong road and one ends up lost and confused. Remember Bunyan's Christian and how he looked down two roads, trying to see which one was straight. Then there came along a swarthy pilgrim in a white robe who pointed out to him, with great confidence, which road Christian should take. It ended in near disaster. Therefore we shall begin by pointing out the wrong road.

Now, I do not wish to say that those who recommend the wrong road in the present matter are flattering deceivers whose white robes are hypocritical disguises. On the contrary, a large number of respectable and honest authors, from Aristotle to Charles Hodge and Robert Sproul, insist that the best and indeed the only way to prove the existence of God is to study the growth of a plant, the path of a planet, the motion of a marble. They support this seemingly secular method by quoting Psalm 19:1- "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth his handiwork." Therefore we should study astronomy to refute the atheist and to instruct the agnostic. Paul says that God's omnipotence can be deduced from the way a little boy shoots a marble-a thing that has been made. Some stalwart Romanists boast that Paul foresaw and placed his stamp of approval on Thomas' Aristotelian argument.

There are two difficulties with this enthusiastic recommendation. The first is not conclusive, but those who approve of the argument must pay attention to it. The difficulty is its difficulty: It is a very hard method. The second difficulty is its virtual uselessness.

The first difficulty-inconclusive evidence and a hard method to prove-can be best addressed with a few examples. Suppose we can get a microscope and examine the internal phloem of the Lykopersikon esculentum. Botany is even worse than theology in its use of long and technical words. We get a clear picture of the internal structure of a plant, but we cannot discover God by a detailed, microscopic look into a tomato. If we carefully observe the motion of the planets, we will see that the squares of their periodic times are proportional to their mean distances from the Sun. If we succeeded in getting this information, we could conclude that God is a great mathematician and that salvation depends on understanding mathematics. Essentially, this is what the ancient Greek philosophical school of the Pythagoreans said. They believed that a happy life after death was the reward for studying arithmetic and geometry.

People hold a somewhat similar view today who think that all the problems of this world can be solved by science. But unlike the Pythagoreans, contemporaries do not believe in a life after death, nor do they think the laws of astronomy can prove there is a God. To change their minds by deducing the existence of God from the laws of science would be extremely difficult and perhaps impossible. If by some other method we first know there is a God, the study of astronomy might show that he is a mathematician. But we would have to know God first.

However, the mere fact that an argument is difficult and complex does not prove that it is a fallacy. Geometry and calculus may drive students to despair, but the theorems are usually regarded as valid deductions. Contrariwise, when one examines the argument as Thomas actually wrote it, serious flaws appear. In another work, I have detailed some of Thomas' fallacies. One of them is a case of circularity, in which he uses as a premise the conclusion he wished to prove. Another is the case of a term that has one meaning in the premises and a different meaning in the conclusion. No syllogism can be valid if the conclusion contains an idea not already given in the premises.

The conclusion therefore is: The so-called "cosmological argument" is not only extremely difficult-since it would require a great amount of science, mathematics, and philosophy to prove it-but it is inconclusive and irremediably fallacious. This is no way to answer the atheists.

The second difficulty is that even if such an argument were valid, it would be useless. This objection applies more to modern authors than to Aristotle. Aristotle's notion of god was quite clear: the Unmoved Mover, thought thinking thought; and this metaphysical mind has a definite role in the explanation of natural phenomena. But the god of contemporary empiricists seems to have no role at all; mainly because the meaning they attach to the word God is utterly vague.

As examples of these arguments, one can mention Yale Philosophy Professor John E. Smith's Experience of God; Frederick Sontag's How Philosophy Shapes Theology; a few years earlier Geddes MacGregor of Bryn Mawr published Introduction to Religious Philosophy. There are many such books; it is not my intention to discuss any of these individually. My point is: When they try to support a belief in god, their arguments are no better and often worse than those of Aristotle; and if some plausibility is found in them, the reason is that their notion of what god is is so vague and ambiguous that the reader imposes his own definite ideas. In their context, the arguments are virtually meaningless. Furthermore, the vague god of these views is useless. Nothing can be deduced from his existence. No moral norms follow a definition of god; no religious practices are contained in a description of god.

One can have a certain academic respect for an atheist who flatly denies God and life after death. He says clearly what he means, and he uses the term God in its common English meaning. One can have almost as much respect for the pantheist, even though he does not use the term God in its ordinary meaning. At least Baruch Spinoza and others identify god explicitly with the universe. But what can our reaction be to the view of Professor H. N. Wieman? He insisted on the existence of god, but for him god is not even all the universe-he, or it, is only some part of the universe. Namely, god is a complex of interactions in society on which we depend and to whose essential structure we must conform if maximum value is to be realized in human experience. So? How does this definition of god stack up against the Shorter Catechism? Therefore, Christians should be more concerned about what kind of God exists rather than about the existence of God.

The Meaninglessness of Existence

At first it may seem strange that knowledge of what God is more important than knowledge that God is. His essence or nature being more important than his existence may seem unusual. Existentialists insist that existence precedes essence. Nevertheless, competent Christians disagree for two reasons. First, we have seen that pantheists identify god with the universe. What is god? -the universe. The mere fact that they use the name god for the universe and thus assert that god "exists" is of no help to Christianity.

The second reason for not being much interested in the existence of God is somewhat similar to the first. The idea existence is an idea without content. Stars exist-but this tells us nothing about the stars; mathematics exists-but this teaches us no mathematics; hallucinations also exist. The point is that a predicate, such as existence, that can be attached to everything indiscriminately tells us nothing about anything. A word, to mean something, must also not mean something. For example, if I say that some cats are black, the sentence has meaning only because some cats are white. If the adjective were attached to every possible subject-so all cats were black, all stars were black, and all politicians were black, as well as all the numbers in arithmetic, and God too-then the word black would have no meaning. It would not distinguish anything from something else. Since everything exists, exists is devoid of information. That is why the Catechism asks, What is God? Not, Does God exist?

Now, most of the contemporary authors are extremely vague as to what sort of God they are talking about; and because the term is so vague, the concept is useless. Can these authors use their god to support a belief in life after death? No ethical norms can be deduced from their god. Most pointedly, their god does not speak to man. He is no better than "the silence of eternity" without even being "interpreted by love." Atheism is more realistic, more honest. If we are to combat the latter, we need a different method.

The Proper Reply

The explanation of a second method must begin with a more direct confrontation with atheism. If the existence of God cannot be deduced by cosmology, have we dodged the burden of proof and left the battlefield in the possession of our enemies? No; there is indeed a theistic answer. Superficially, it is not difficult to understand; but, unfortunately, a full appreciation of its force requires some philosophic expertise. A knowledge of geometry is of great help, but it is seldom taught in the public high schools. One cannot realistically expect Christians to have read and to have understood Spinoza; and Protestant churches usually anathematize plain, ordinary Aristotelian logic.

In geometry there are axioms and theorems. One of the early theorems is, "An exterior angle of a triangle is greater than either opposite interior angle." A later one is the famous Pythagorean theorem: the sum of the squares of the other two sides of a right triangle equals the square of its hypotenuse. How theological all this sounds! These two theorems and all others are deduced logically from a certain set of axioms. But the axioms are never deduced. They are assumed without proof.

There is a definite reason why not everything can be deduced. If one tried to prove the axioms of geometry, one must refer back to prior propositions. If these too must be deduced, there must be previous propositions, and so on back ad infinitum. From which it follows: If everything must be demonstrated, nothing can be demonstrated, for there would be no starting point. If you cannot start, then you surely cannot finish.

Every system of theology or philosophy must have a starting point. Logical Positivists started with the unproved assumption that a sentence can have no meaning unless it can be tested by sensation. To speak without referring to something that can be touched, seen, smelled, and especially measured, is to speak nonsense. But they never deduce this principle. It is their non-demonstrable axiom. Worse, it is self-contradictory, for it has not been seen, smelled, or measured; therefore it is self-condemned as nonsense.

If the axioms of other secularists are not nonsense, they are nonetheless axioms. Every system must start somewhere, and it cannot have started before it starts. A naturalist might amend the Logical Positivist's principle and make it say that all knowledge is derived from sensation. This is not nonsense, but it is still an empirically unverifiable axiom. If it is not self-contradictory, it is at least without empirical justification. Other arguments against empiricism need not be given here: The point is that no system can deduce its axioms.

The inference is this: No one can consistently object to Christianity's being based on a non-demonstrable axiom. If the secularists exercise their privilege of basing their theorems on axioms, then so can Christians. If the former refuse to accept our axioms, then they can have no logical objection to our rejecting theirs. Accordingly, we reject the very basis of atheism, Logical Positivism, and, in general, empiricism. Our axiom shall be, God has spoken. More completely, God has spoken in the Bible. More precisely, what the Bible says, God has spoken.

 

- Gordon Clark


todangst
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kingneb wrote: whatever

kingneb wrote:

whatever you say, todanus.

go ahead and ban me if you'd like. then you can make another ridiculous argument from silence that you beat me.

you'd love that, wouldn't you, todanus?

So, you think it's ridiculous to say that a claim, without any evidence, is unlikely to be true? This is what an evidential argument from silence is.

You are saying that if it can be demonstrated that there is no evidence for a claim, it is ridiculous to say that the claim is not likely to be true.

This is what you are saying.

Other than the fact that your claim is violently ignorant, you need only look it up for yourself: 

 

Anyone who can't grasp that a claim without evidence is likely false is simply going to have to toss insults, they are too ignorant for anything else.

If he had even a modicum of actual interest, he'd actually read what I've cited for him from two historians.

Or just try here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

The argument from silence (also called argumentum a silentio in Latin) is generally a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence.[1] In the field of classical studies, it often refers to the deduction from the lack of references to a subject in the available writings of an author to the conclusion that he was ignorant of it.[2] When used as a logical proof in pure reasoning, the argument is classed among the fallacies, but an arguments from silence can be a valid and convincing form of abductive reasoning.[3]

 

Scholarly uses of the argument

The argument from silence has also famously been used by skeptics against the virgin birth of Christ. According to Daniel Schowalter, such an argument "cannot be determinative, but it is an important consideration for people who see the virgin birth as a feature created within the early traditions about Jesus rather than a historical occurrence."[4] Saint Paul, for example, does not mention the virgin birth, and skeptics therefore argue from his silence that he did not know of it. If this argument is used as an attempted proof of Paul's ignorance, it is incorrect, because ignorance is only one possible reason for Paul's silence; it's also possible that he did not think the virgin birth was important or relevant to his reasoning, or that he referred to it in texts that have now been lost or mutilated. However, the argument from silence is not incorrect if it is used to prove that Paul might have been ignorant. From the fact that Paul refers to the resurrection of Jesus, he demonstrates knowing it. From the fact that Paul does not refer to the virgin birth, it is not certain that he knew of it; therefore, he might have been ignorant of it.

The argument from silence is very convincing when mentioning a fact can be seen as so natural that its omission is a good reason to assume ignorance. For example, while the editors of Yerushalmi and Bavli mention the other community, most scholars believe these documents were written independently. Louis Jacobs writes, "If the editors of either had had access to an actual text of the other, it is inconceivable that they would not have mentioned this. Here the argument from silence is very convincing."[5]

 

Or here:

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Argument_from_Silence

Explanation

If you interpret silence as consent, you are committing the argument from Silence.

 

And thus learn that a fallacious argument silence occurs when you point to silence as CONSENT.

 

A valid argument from silence points to silence as an ABSENCE of consent or support or evidence!

Something anyone who actually knows about the fallacy would know.

 

Or here, from UMass:

http://www.umass.edu/wsp/methodology/outline/silence.html

Evidential Silence

"Silence" means that the thing in question (call it X) is not mentioned in the available documents. If it were mentioned, then with the usual qualifications it would be proved to exist. Since X is not mentioned, X cannot be proved to exist. A natural further inference from this evidence is that X did not exist. The basic point is that if X did not in fact exist, then the only trace which that fact could leave, in the evidence, is the silence of the evidence as to X. At the same time, any such conclusion must be provisional. If documents are later found that do mention X, then X is after all proved to exist. A single positive may overturn any number of negatives. A single sound refutes all silences.

The possibility of such a future positive can never be ruled out. But until it occurs, the non-existence of X is the best inference from the absence of X in the evidence. The strength of that inference in a given case will depend on (1) how many documents there are, or in statistical terms how large the sample is, and, in literary terms, (2) how likely the thing is to have been mentioned in documents of that type in the first place. We might explore these concepts just a little.

 

 

Or here:

http://editthis.info/logic/Informal_Fallacies#Argument_from_Silence

 

Argument from Silence

The Argument from Silence is the claim that since a historical personage/document does deny or rule out a claim, that this silence can be taken as consent.

A valid argument from silence, or an evidential argument of silence can be made. For those for whom this claim appears controversial, consider: if there were no valid arguments from silence, then it would follow that no one could rule out any claim for which there were no evidence!

To make a valid, or evidential argument from silence, an arguer most demonstrate that the person in question would 1) have had the opportunity to be aware of claim and, knowing of the claim, would have had the opportunity to make mention of it.

When one is able to demonstrate these issues, then one has made a valid Argument from Silence

According to Gilbert Garraghan (A Guide to Historical Method, 1946, p. 149)

To be valid, the argument from silence must fulfill two conditions: the writer[s] whose silence is invoked would certainly have known about it; [and] knowing it, he would under the circumstances certainly have made mention of it. When these two conditions are fulfilled, the argument from silence proves its point with moral certainty.

An example of a Fallacious Argument from Silence is given by Minicus Felix, a first century Roman writer whoe wrote about early Christians, claiming that they sacrificed infants:

"As for the initiation of new members, the details are as disgusting as they are well known. The novice himself, deceived by the coating of dough (covering a sacrificial infant), thinks the stabs are harmless. Then, it's horrible! They hungrily drink the blood and compete with one another as they divide his limbs. And the fact they all share knowledge of the crime pledges them all to silence. On the feast-day they foregather with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of either sex and all ages. Now, in the dark, so favorable to shameless behavior, they twine the bonds of unnamable passion, as chance decides. Precisely the secrecy of this evil religion proves that all these things, or practically all, are true."

An example of a valid Argument from Silence

Before Ignatius, not a single reference to Pontius Pilate, Jesus' executioner, is to be found. Ignatius is also the first to mention Mary; Joseph, Jesus' father, nowhere appears. The earliest reference to Jesus as any kind of a teacher comes in 1 Clement, just before Ignatius, who himself seems curiously unaware of any of Jesus' teachings. To find the first indication of Jesus as a miracle worker, we must move beyond Ignatius to the Epistle of Barnabas. Other notable elements of the Gospel story are equally hard to find. This strange silence on the Gospel Jesus which pervades almost a century of Christian correspondence cries out for explanation. It cannot be dismissed as some inconsequential quirk, or by the blithe observation made by New Testament scholarship that early Christian writers "show no interest" in the earthly life of Jesus. Something is going on here. - Earl Doherty's case for a non-historical Jesus.

 

Evidential silence is a valid means of evaluting that there is no support for a claim. The fact that I have to point this out to you, again, demonstrates that you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

No evidence for a claim = claim is unlikely to be true.

 

 

 

 

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


kingneb
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todanus, It's very simple.

todanus,

It's very simple. I'm not going to sit down at 11pm (or whatever time it was that my wife and i got back) and start reading all these printouts, some for a second time. I guarantee you it would put me to sleep.

Not that it means anything to you, but i plan on reading this weekend (earlier in the day), as i will have more time. I merely jumped on here to catch the latest turd and comment before going to bed. That doesn't mean i don't plan on reading.  

Very simple to understand for people who don't have their heads up their butts, todanus.

 


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kingneb, Don't feel like

kingneb,

Don't feel like you have to respond to everyone. For every one post you put up, 20 people might post responses. Not all of them warrant a reply.

You aren't the first person to start posting here and be under the impression that they have to respond to everyone, lest they "lose". That isn't the case. Certain people here may complain about a "hit-and-run" but just take your time, post a well thought out reply, and they shall eat their words.

Or, I suppose the other option is to start acting like a jerk and get in some name-calling...

kingneb wrote:
If you say so. It's funny that you haven't gotten onto deludedman for pasting links all over the place.

And, by the way, here's where the name calling started. 

-Triften 


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kingneb

kingneb wrote:

Strafio,

You defined "secular" as "a way of looking at the world where religion is just unnecessary."

You've called the laws of logic "secular" assumptions.

I then asked why you consider them secular assumptions and your response was that logic doesn't "need religion for them".

It seems like you're begging the question.


Not quote. I wasn't making an argument for logic being secular, was just explaining what I mean by logic being secular. If you challenge my position that logic is secular, i.e. doesn't require religion, then I can defend it here.

Logic is a method of analysing claims and it is based on the rules of our language. Once you have the rules of law of identity, law of non-contradiction and law of excluded middle (all of which follow from using the word 'and', 'not', 'is' and 'or' correctly) then you have the rules necessary for logical deductions and arguments.

So if someone is using language correctly, which they have to be to make a claim, then those claims will be subject to the rules of logic. The rules of logic apply to everyone who argues in language. So following the rules of logic doesn't need any justification from religion and is thereby secular.


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kingneb

kingneb wrote:

todanus,

It's very simple. I'm not going to sit down at 11pm (or whatever time it was that my wife and i got back)

 

Then why are you here posting at all?

Quote:
 

 and start reading all these printouts, some for a second time. I guarantee you it would put me to sleep.

I know it will, it would put any child of 6 to sleep too, as reading anything that goes that far over your head is mentally taxing.

I could post my bank account number in my essays to you, safe in the knowledge that you'd never gain access to my account.

Here's how theists like you work:

First, whine like a bitch that their question has not been answered.

Then, wine like a bitch when you quesiton has been answered, because it's too hard to actually read the response.

You can't be taken seriously. You've been exposed as a fraud. You can't even take the time to write your OWN posts... you cut and paste, and when you get a response, you throw a tantrum.

You're not able to read the posts because they're beyond you.

Deal. 

 

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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triften

triften wrote:

kingneb,

Don't feel like you have to respond to everyone. 

He hasn't responded to anyone, he's just ranted and tossed insults. If he were serious, he'd simply pick a post he wishes to respond to, and respond....

But he's shown that, to him, the fact that a claim without evidence is unlikely to be true (an evidential argument from silence) is a shocking revelation, so I doubt he's capable of a reasoned response... recall that his only 'argument' here is something he cut and pasted... 

 

 

Quote:

Or, I suppose the other option is to start acting like a jerk and get in some name-calling...

kingneb wrote:
If you say so. It's funny that you haven't gotten onto deludedman for pasting links all over the place.

And, by the way, here's where the name calling started.

-Triften

Yes. Thank you. Unfortunately facts are of no importance to a troll.  

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I don't compare giraffes to stars.

I do 

Giraffes a carbon based life form, carbon is made in stars, and ejected once the star becomes a supernova, there is a direct relationship Smiling

 


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Rev_Devilin

Rev_Devilin wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I don't compare giraffes to stars.

I do

Giraffes a carbon based life form, carbon is made in stars, and ejected once the star becomes a supernova, there is a direct relationship Smiling

 

 

FALLACY OF COMPOSITITION! FALLACY OF COMPOSITION!

 


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todangst, I enjoyed your

todangst, I enjoyed your explanation of the argument from silence. It struck me that it seems very related to the principle of Occam's Razor. Do you think they are similar enough to call them the same? Or are there important distinctions?

The reason I bring this up is because explaining the importance of Occam's Razor tends to be difficult with people who aren't familiar with science and the scientific method. It seems arbitrary to them. Perhaps it would be easier to explain it by using the argument from silence. 

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kingneb wrote: Logically

kingneb wrote:

Logically there is no difference between Atheism and Pantheism. To deny that there is a God and to apply the name God to everything are conceptually identical

 I'm very interested in seeing the logic behind this statement.  To say that something does not exist would seem to imply that that thing cannot be everything.  To say that God exists in everything implies that god exists.  I see where you think you were going with this.  But the only way you could get there would be by completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting what pantheists believe.  I can completely see how you could conclude that denying god and applying god to everything are conceptually identical if pantheists think that god is nothing more than the matter and energy and spacetime in the universe.  That would make god synonymous with universe.  But pantheists don't hold to this belief.  They believe that god makes up all of the matter and energy in the universe but also transcends it, demonstrates an awareness within it, even has control over it.

 Now I'd just like to appologize in advance if I have mischaracterized what pantheists believe.  I'm not a pantheist or a theist at all so I honestly can't say with any authority that I know exactly what pantheists believe.  I do know, though, that kingneb was wrong when he made that statement about pantheists.  Hence my post.