I avoid using metaphoric non-entities like 'spiritual' as much as possible -- they connote nothing, and are well defined as such. By using terms like this to describe qualitative states/experiences, we lend credence to their LITERAL being, due to the fact that a large percent of those we are talking to (mistakenly) classify the 'spirit' as an actual, extant entity. We have plenty of language to use that does not evoke such non-sequitors and misguided inference on the part of the audience -- as a rule (and as a rational mind) avoid pitfalls such as 'spiritual'.

Mind you, this is when speaking in rational terms -- and as an atheist and rationalist, I tend to default to this mode of communication when expressing myself and particularly when broaching subject matter that may be mistakenly interpreted as literal.

Hey, Louis --

What do non religious people do in times of hardship?

Thanks,

--J

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Friends, Family, and personal strength.

Think about it:

When the christian is having a rough go of it, they pray for strength, wisdom, and guidance, and stick to their scruples...from the atheistic point of view, when they recieve any of the three affore-mentioned virtues, they accredit some deity with the gift -- when in reality, it was their own strength, wisdom, or guidance (or that of their friends or family) that brought them through.

Young Christians in ActionWrote:

Where is god when we hurt? Where is he when sleep wont come? Where is he when awaken in a hospital bed with pain that wont subside? He's right here! he hung on the gallows to prove once for all, with pierced hands and bloodstained face, that he's here, that he didnt create the hurt, but he came to take it away.

Louis R
That is nice, but it isn't true.

When I get hurt, do you know who is there for me? My friends. My family. Doctors. Nurses. Paramedics.

People who actually save my life and give me support.

Why do they do this?

Alpha et Omega Posted:

Christians tend to single them [atheists] out, but why? Why not polytheists, deists, pantheists, etc.?

Or are these brilliant Christians clueless on religious philosophy and all they know is that there is a God and that's that? Most couldn't tell me why the Bible is any more right than the Quran, or why Christianity is more right than Hinduism or Buddhism. But when it comes to atheism? Get out of here, that's just stupid!

Seriously. Most of the arguments I see from Christians are redundant and idiotic. Even Protestant Vs. Catholic arguments are idiotic.

"Saints can't hear you!!!" like sound waves apply to Heaven. Or "the Pope isn't infallible!" yet they use a book deemed infallible by a past Pope and admit he was suddenly infallible ex cathedra at that time. But even though he can compile a whole infallible book, he doesn't know anything else ex cathedra.

--- christopher nesbitt wrote:

Louis,

I do respect your opinion and yes this is a very touchy subject; however, everything you are writing and how you judge God is as if he is a man. You are trying to judge him as a human and trying to put him in a box and look into it and point at all the things you see wrong with him.

Here you are suggesting that I not rationally examine your god. Why would I ever abandon my reason? Would you offer such council on other subjects? Are you intimating that god is somehow beyond logic? I would tend to agree…there is nothing logical about your god, and the only reason to ask me to abdicate my faculties in his consideration, is that your god doesn't stand up to rational thought…at least we concur upon this point.

Louis,

You bring up many good points my friend; however, I do not think we are seeing eye to eye. I believe everyone has a belief in something whether the majority believe a word means one thing others may view it differently (for example the word "God"). I am very familiar with Joseph Smith, Scientology, and Intelligent Design. I know there are many different views on intelligent design? Have you read the book by Rael "Intelligent Design"? It is available free from his website www.rael.org (for the book) and his own news website www.raelnews.org. Also, another good website on Scientology (I am not sure were you got your info), but the website I use is www.xenu.net. I have many links concerning Mormonism but I recommend the "God Makers" book or The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie On the subject of Religion and Science you say that religion is dogmatic (and yes I believe some are), but you claim that science is not. I believe differently; and I believe science is very dogmatic in numerous ways. I do believe though that science and religion are on the same playing field and both can be used to show that they are both real. I believe that science will continue to prove the Bible to be true and that it will prove what is written is right, as it has in many instances. Yes, there are people will deny this and say my claims are untrue or ridiculous; however, some of the greatest scientists were once laughed at too. Who is right and who is wrong??? Well I guess that is an answer we will all find out when our time comes. However, in the mean time we can only argue and discuss are points of view (typing away) in a blog room somewhere in Internet space, hoping to convince on another that the other is right. Knowing deep down inside that the chances of doing so are like a camel passing through the eye of a needle. When I was referring to Nineveh I was talking about Archaeologists (who are scientists) that denied its existence and later had to rebuke their statements. I will read the books you recommend, and yes I am very familiar with Richard Dawkins. However, I will buy the books and read them because I try to understand what others believe and keep an open mind (unlike many of my fellow Christians, in which is something I am trying to help them with). The books I recommend for further reading is Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology by

--- christopher nesbitt wrote:

Louis,

There are many flaws in science as nothing in science can be proved and there are many theories. Even gravity is not a fact but a theory and atomic theory as many thing in science that people believe to be true can not be proved, just like many things in Christians beliefs. Actually science and religion are very much alike as both are based upon a theory or belief. When science like religion has
> its surface pulled back there are many flaws (as sometimes they are called). As a Christian I love science because I find that many times scientist accidentally end up proving the Bible to be true. For example, in the science or archaeologist world it was believed that in Genesis 10:11 when a city of Nineveh was mentioned that we did not know of such a place and many skeptics of the Christian belief used this as one of many points to show the Bible is inaccurate or false. However, Nineveh was discovered and people had to swallow there statements and find new accusations to make. I feel that no matter how many things in the Bible are proven, people will find new arguments and pick up another type of rock to through and the castle. As Sandy said I believe Jesus could come back tomorrow and as the Christians believe in the Rapture of the Church and the Bible talks about this and how it is going to happen as it has been written in there for hundreds of years, but when it happens people will still say aliens must have done it, or the government had something to do with it, or many other explanations. However, if they looked in Revelation in the Bible it is written in there and has been for a very long time. I hope I didn't offend anyone and enjoy engaging in such discussions with everyone, were there is a mutual respect for everyone beliefs. Thank you.