A challenge for the RRS [Trollville]
Offline I've raised this question on the forums before, and I'd like to ask it again. Why debate God and religion in the midst of human suffering? In my opinion , service to all of humankind is our most important responsibility. I think this responsibility goes beyond giving some money to an organization. We must all work to end poverty, hunger and disease. Why sit around debating when you could be helping those in need? I challenge the RRS to work as an Atheist humanitarian organization; using all their resources to fight suffering.
{MOD EDIT: Christos pulls same stunt here;
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/7847
}
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
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Not at all. You've admitted your special pleading, and so confessed your ulterior motive.
Christos, which organizations do you support?
also... Another complication with poor people and theism is that often families will be convinced that prayer will actually help them.
Wouldn't a statement like this seem problematic?
"We may be out of money and really hungry, but I asked the Lord for help and the Lord loves us so we'll be fine."
Wouldn't they seem more inspired to turn their situation around if they didn't believe the magic safety net would save them?
I admitted that I'm committed to trying to give all I have to those in need. Therefore, expenses that don't go towards serving others are a callous extravagance.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
No stuntgibbon, it would be better if you gave the poor family the money and food they needed instead of convincing them that their prayers were worthless.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
Given your tactics, you'll forgive my incredulity. This is also not what your ultimatum was -- which, for the third time, if applied uniformly, wouldn't be posed as a false dilemma to an atheist organization. I won't repeat this again. If you return to the argument I've just addressed, I'll assume you're even more dishonest than I'd previously gathered -- which is saying something.
Then I suppose you have some letters to write.
Yes, I understand that. Its not like religion disappears overnight after we create laws to ban it. I think that when we solve more "big questions" with science, people will eventually begin to abandon religious thought, for it's no longer necessary to explain the universe. Secondly, when people get more educated and trained to think critically and logically, they will understand the absurdity of religion.
Heh, same here. Although I never really believed in santa. Giving up God was hard for the first few weeks.
Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.
Reading this makes me want to eat a dollar bill out of spite.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
However, if they were convinced prayers didn't work to begin with, that wouldn't be "their plan" now would it? (someone who would pick "pray" over "work"
Also, wouldn't it be more valuable to teach poor people how not to be poor instead of just feeding them a few times on handouts?
I provided a list. Feeding a child benefits the child in the short term, but you need to look at solutions to preven the child from continuing to need food as well. To add to my previous list I woudl also include the fact that lack of knowledge and avoidance of condoms etc also increase the number of children in these types of communities. THe poorest communities tend to be the most religous and produce the most babies which then need more food that there is already a shortage of.
Either way, solutions are never as simple as giving someone food and you must used multi-pronged approach's to fix the problem long-term.
There are also more problems than just starvation in the world.
Giving one person a peice of bread does not prevent another person from shooting a third.
Yikes, no need to get heated.
My hope that the RRS would care more about human suffering was specifically because it is an Atheist org. Sometimes Christian hide behind Heaven as an excuse for not serving the needy; as if God will take care of the suffering in the next life.
However, Atheists hold no such beliefs about the afterlife. This life is all we get. Therefore, why not do all we can to provide a better life for all humanity? This better life for all humanity starts by ending hunger, thrist, homelessness, disease, etc. These are the most pressing and urgent needs.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
I'll assume your disappearances from this forum correspond to your effort to tell them this.
A competent regurgitation, but still bifurcation when applied here.
And I think I'm done here. You're a dishonest guy, Cristos. I have lost all respect for you.
Stunygibbon, some people are poor and can't get out of it. Two billion people live on less than 2 dollars a day. In many countries, it doesn't matter how hard you work, you still end up poor. Try going to Tiajuana, Aswan, Hebron, etc. People work ridiculously hard, and still live terribly. Get out there and do something about it.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
Like the computer you're typing on? Like the clothes you wear? I would put money on the assumption that you spend more on food in a week than some very large families do in a month.
Hypocrites come in all flavours though. I admit that I am very fortunate to have what I have and I am not comfortable with giving it all up thoguh I would love to see true globalization.
You didn't address any of the benefits I credited to the elimination of religion, I would appreciate it if you do.
On the grand scale true globalization would solve the issues that you have. As a world we will never achieve globalization without the elimination of religion and advancement of secularism.
Handing people money or food does not provide the world permenant solutions.
Besides, for those religious peole who are suffering you surely must know that it the case that a lot of religions promote poverty as a way of getting closer to god. Who are you to take away their religous freedom of being poor and hungry?
You're dishonest with yourself Magilum. You know that human suffering is the most pressing need. You just choose ignorance and indifference in the face of human suffering.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
You haven't answered my questions, and I would rather not ask Hamby because I want to know your response. As to whether or not you'll disappear, I fail to see how that is relevant. Please explain.
For your reference, here are my questions again:
1. How can you justify posting on this forum when it would be a better use of your time fighting to end world hunger, poverty and suffering?
2. Should any organization exist that does not commit itself to helping the poor (or the hungry or the suffering)?
Me, in particular, Cristos? More so than average? Why not blame me for cancer not being cured, or that it rained on the cardboard box you presumably live in, sans extravagances. Once again, the problem you have not been able to overcome this entire thread is your total reliance on the fallacy of special pleading (and appeals to emotion, come to think of it).
I never said that I'm perfect Tarpan. I can always to more for others in need. However, I'm committed to continually live less for myself and more for others each day. Maybe I will never give away all I have, but I'm going to live my life with that goal.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
How do you know he doesn't?
You're making an assumption that while someone has the time to post on a forum and discuss things that are dear to them that they don't have the time to do other things.
I find discussing philosophy and religion to be a hobby of mine. I would do it regardless of what else I do with my time. I enjoy it.
I sure hope to find you posting on every movie forum, video game forums, and realistically every other forum in the world because I get the feeling that there are less than a 0.01% of the wrold that is accomplishing what you seem to set as the standard for our lives.
What good would it do to feed a person in darfur if they are just going to get killed?
There are many problems in our world and all deserve to be fought against. Including religion, including poverty.
You still haven't addressed my list of advantages to the poorest and most needy people in the world would have by eliminating religion.
Who says I'm not contributing?
I also don't even need to leave the country to find poor people. There's obviously a lot of reasons a lot of people find themselves in trouble, however I don't see how trying to improve education of these folks wouldn't help someone.
I strongly believe that the ignorance of religion is a root cause of a lot of human suffering. By just battling the lowest level of suffering you do not prevent it. You need to prevent the causes of human suffering not just deal with the result if you truely want to influence change.
Good so ending theism would make people not have an excuse/reason anymore, I guess that means we are helping this the end to poverty cause. Not only will can I also help to end poverty I can get others how having illogical reasons for not helping those in poverty to actually do something.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Maybe he does. However, stuntgibbon was unaware that people can work hard and still live in terrible poverty. That demonstrates that stuntgibbon probably hasn't seen world poverty.
Because I try to love that person in Darfur, and I don't think he/she deserves to suffer in any way.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
I'm trying to figure out where you're going here, Christos.
You ask the RRS to give up the pursuit of ending theism's hold on people and instead concentrate on supplying their more immediate needs. You are told that the RRS also supports/runs the Atheist Volunteers site and are essentially doing both.
You hear this and repeat your claim that the RRS (and by extension, all atheists) soes nothing to supply assistance for human suffering and need to drop their fight against theism.
lather, rinse, repeat.
Am I following things so far?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Love and food do not block bullets from entering the back of the skull.
Exactly
I believe that the RRS should commit itself 100% to ending poverty, hunger, thirst, etc. That means stopping the endless debate and rant about religion and God-belief.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
We need to work to end war and genocide just as much as fighting poverty. Its not ok to sit around while genocide occurs either.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
Thank you, I accept your apology and appreciate your support in ending religon.
If your next post doesn't address the arguments you've ignored, Cristos, your thread is going to Trollville.
Thats not what I said at all.
I think everyone here understands my point. Constantly debating and fighting religion really doesn't solve the world's most pressing needs. Look at world poverty and ask yourself if its ok for people to live like that. Then ask yourself what more you can do to change poverty.
PS- I'm still waiting for Sapient to prove that changing a child's religious culture is more important then feeding the child.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
Religion causes those things, so yes you did.
Eliminating religion will help with ending poverty. See previous comment about globalization.
I think people here do understand your point and have pointed out things that you are seemingly are avoiding.
I addressed that and you are avoiding responding.
I don't think you are 'trying' to be a troll, but you are accomplishing it by avoiding responding to the points being brought up and by ignoring the responses to your questions and statements.
You mean the way religion has devoted itself 100% to causing/exacerbating these problems?
Or do you just want the pleasure of saying "I win - I stopped the RRS from discussing theism"?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
This is a false dichotomy, btw. It's not "you can either fight religion or help poor people, choose one."
I dare you to find the essays on this site where Sapient (or anyone) is saying that you can either fight against religion or help feed kids, and make sure not to feed kids.
You're right. It's just that your point is myopic and lousy.
I guess that depends on what you consider the world's most pressing needs. Sorry if everyone doesn't prioritize the world's needs in the same order that you do.
Nope.
That's an appeal to emotion, by the way.
The fact is that there are a shitload of problems in the world, not just poverty and hunger. Are we supposed to ignore all the problems and focus on one specific problem while everything else is going apeshit?
You might as well be harassing someone for studying to become a pharmacist when they could be studying to become a surgeon to help those who are in more dire need. Be sure to harass your dentist the next time you see him for not choosing a major that could help someone with greater need. I mean, seriously, what's a lousy cavity when there are people out there who need organ transplants and open heart surgery? How could he be so inconsiderate?
It takes many people doing many things to build a world. Your suggestion that we should stop fighting a cause that we see as worthwhile, whether or not we see it as THE MOST worthwhile of all possible causes, is stupid.
Whether or not it's the most pressing issue on the planet, it needs to be done.
How's this:
Instead of atheists quitting our attack on religion to pursue the goals of ending hunger and disease continues to run rampant and be oppressive and hostile, why don't the theists stop going to church on sunday when they could be dedicating all those church ours to something more important, like disease and hunger.
And hey, if the theists stop giving us an excuse to do what we're doing, we can move on. Then we'll have two problems solved instead of just one.
We're not stopping. Say whatever you want about us, but one guy calling me inconsiderate because I don't dedicate all of my resources to the one specific problem he likes while ignoring the ones he doesn't like is of very little concern to me.
I don't see this thread accomplishing anything aside from making you appear self-righteous.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
Using your logic, then are you also writing the NFL, the Log Cabin Republicans, ASCAP, the Teamsters, et al, and requesting that they drop whatever their main functions are and devote themselves to ending the world's suffering?
Or are you just of the opinion that you like football more than atheism?
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Give it up for the two richest men in the world, the two most philanthropic men in the world: Bill Gates and Warren Buffet both atheists.
And on that note... check out our newest site: www.celebatheist.com
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I'd rather feed the child and never allow him to be brainwashed in the first place. I do both, so don't tell me I can't. Did you not hear me the first time?
The diversionary cry baby tactic riddled with an appeal to emotion will not work with me. We will continue to fight theism alongwith other important projects.
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ATTA BOY!
Don't ask Christos for the spare change, he's already devoted 100% of his resources to feeding the poor.
Wait a second!!! How does he have electricity, computer, and an internet connection?
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No. But here's an idea... how about you start the website of your dreams instead of giving us an argument that a child who had his blankie taken from him would give us?
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www.atheistvolunteers.org www.earthward.org
Christos, shut your trap and put your money where your mouth is. Your posts here cost us money that we could use to feed the poor.
Instead of complaining, please send a donation for the bandwidth you wasted. The money was gonna go to the poor, but you just ripped it from their mouths complaining about our attacks on your invisible friend in a sort of Rudy Giuliani "but 9-11" manner. Stop exploiting the weak to fit your ulterior motive, it wreaks of immoral theism.
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I lost 18,000 last year... that was my income. During that year I sent about $350 to secular causes that benefit the poor. How much did you earn? How much did you give?
What is the name of the site you started or the org you support financially on this issue? When is the last time you helped send a child to Africa to help those with AIDS.
I did that this year... and I didn't even mention it. Best I can tell I do abundantly more than you on this issue, and you're a childish immoral hypocrite.
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I believe you should get a clue, but I guess we can't have it all. Stop wasting my bandwidth, so I can give the money to the needy.
Get off the internet and give the $50 a month to the needy. Send your computer to the American Red Cross or something.
You know you're disgusting right? I'd bet a poor persons dinner that I do abundantly more than you on this issue, and yet I still have time to take out your imaginary friend all day.
Some people are multitalented. Think Deon Sanders or Bo Jackson, and as proposed ny others go bitch to the NFL and MLB that they should do the same.
I am essentially in poverty for this cause, what are you doing? Bitching about other groups while you sit on your ass? I made $60,000 three years ago, this year ($18,000). Get off it... go do what you claim to want to do instead of whining to the people who already do it. And no, for the last time we will not devote 100% of our efforts to poverty, such action by our group would be highly stupid on so many aspects. Think for two seconds.... you think everyone subscribed to our service so we could change course midway to a goal highly different from their original donation intent? Not only would we become a failure against religion overnight, but we'd serve no purpose to the poor with 90% of our supporters gone. (don't you dare strawman that one, i don't feel like qualifying it with the necessary logic needed to help your small mind grasp it)
Tell us one more time to devote 100% of our resources to helping the poor and you'll be on a forced 3 month timeout, as telling us again would amount to taking a meal from a homeless person (your posts cost money to keep online). Shouldn't be too bad anyway, since you'll run and hide for several months like you did last time. Oh yeah... the timeout will come your way so we can use the money you'd waste on bandwidth to feed a poor person.
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Well Brian, I donated about 1000 dollars last year to sponsor children in Ethiopia through WorldVision. I worked part-time as a janitor in the summer to earn the money. I hoping to donate at least 1500 this year and pick up another sponsor child.
That does mean that I donate more than you. However, this isn't a competition. I respect your donation.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
Actually based on his salary reduction to work on his activism I would say he put in an additional 42k...so based on that...you just look stupid.
But thanks for maintaining your useless contributions. I feel badly that I twice wasted time on your posts. What a pawn.Are you guys serious? You always bitch and moan about logical fallacies, and then do this? What does Christos' charecter have to do with his arguement? What does how much he donates, or how much you donate, have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. All that is taking place here is a call to action. A call to responsible living. I'll be honest, I have respect for ya'll, anyone with a real dedication to truth is legit. But that also entails conceding a point to others when they're right.
This isn't atheist vs. theist. Christos claims to be an agnostic, I'm a dedicated Christian, so obviously it's not agnostic vs. theist either. This is the part of the world that has money trying to help the part that doesn't. Do I claim moral validity for me having a computer? Making this post? My life style? No. I can use improvement. I am striving to improve. Again, this doesn't affect the validity of the claim. This has nothing to do with our failure as a species to care for the suffering among us. Whether that be Detroit or Chicago or Calcutta.
Finally, I can assure you that this isn't a special call against the RRS, at least not on my part. I tell anyone who asks what I believe on this issue, and some who don't. Including and especially my Church.
If he's to avoid hypocrisy: everything.
We must have been reading different threads.
He admitted to holding the atheist organization to a different standard, based on some cant he cobbled together about how he expects "more."
Mere labels.
Guilt without action is hypocrisy. Either act or don't, but don't just blather about it.
He admitted it was on his part.
For the record, I gave up an extremely lucrative career in order to have free time to devote to research, writing, and altruism. No shit, Christos, I've probably donated more than you'll make in your lifetime, and that's just in money. I've easily spent ten thousand hours volunteering for causes I believe in.
If you want to bitch, do it somewhere else, because you're just pissing me off doing it here.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Ye have the poor with you always. Remember, Jesus never lifted a finger to remove poverty, he embraced it. Shouldn't you be a good lil' christian and run along and play in the sand, now?
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
Promoting freethought and rationality isn't subservient to fighting poverty. Religiosity and poverty are highly correlated because they perpetually reinforce eachother. Poverty leads to unhappiness and fear. Unhappiness and fear strengthen religiosity. Religiosity strengthens unhappiness and fear through coerced donations and forced taxation, which increase poverty. That unhappiness and fear further strengths religiosity. Fighting religion's privileged status in society is fighting to end the cycle of perpetual reinforcement that keeps people poor, unhappy, and fearful. Further, think about the magnitude of the benefits charity organizations would receive from the public if the public wasn't swindled of their money by religious organizations.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
wavefreak wrote
I agree. It reminds me of that famous statement by Lord Acton regarding the corrupting influence of absolute power.
The one thing that both theists and atheist have in common with each other is that weakness known as human nature.