Atheists, do you ever hope...
Posted on: March 4, 2008 - 5:59pm
Offline
Atheists, do you ever hope...
That you are wrong? I'm curious as to whether other Atheists hope there is an after life and all that stuff.
I recently lost two children to pre-mature birth. Last night, my fiance and I were talking about how much we missed them, and he mentioned that it was times that this that almost made him wish we were wrong about the existance of God and the afterlife, because it would be nice to think that we might see our babies again.
I would personally be quite pleased if there was an afterlife and such, but I just can't find myself believing that there is. What about you?
- Login to post comments
What theist call hope is "faith" based on magic.
What atheists call "hope" is "lets see what we can do" and base it on reality.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
First, I am very sorry for your loss. Nothing I could say would be anything more than sparse comfort, so I won't pass on anything but sympathy.
As for wanting there to be an afterlife...no, I can't believe, either. I came to the conclusion that believing in afterlife (positive or negative) is nothing more than unrestrained egotism. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that there is something special enough about me to violate the laws of physics.
I can understand the need for comfort and solace; for that, I'm a believer in the "as long as you're remembered, you're not really dead" philosophy...I just hope I'm remembered fondly.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
Nah. To be honest, the idea of living forever sounds torturous, even if I got seventy two virgins a month. I know that many atheists fear death, or wish for something more, but I'm pretty stoic about that sort of thing. I really dig my life, and I'm not in a hurry to die, but I've been nonexistent for billions of years before now. It won't be too tough.
I get you, and I recognize how hard things like this can be, but I wonder, in fifty years when you die, will you really have all that much to talk about with an infant? What would be so awesome about it? Sure, it's natural to feel loss so soon after the event. It's built into our nature. However, there's another side to it that doesn't feel comforting right now, but it's true. Your body did its job well. For whatever reason, these babies weren't able to survive. Evolution has done its work. When you do raise a child, it will be healthier and genetically stronger than the two you lost. You're going to be a good mother because you have the evolutionary instinct to cling to your child and protect it. These good instincts are causing you pain now because your nature is doing exactly what it's supposed to. Perhaps there's a little comfort in this.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I've always hoped that I was wrong, and that there is some sort of afterlife. However, the idea that any of the religions that exist today are right(except taoism) scares me more than just dying. All of the religions that exist today have had major negative impacts on our world, and are based around fear. Judging from that, heaven is not a nice place.
There is also the fact that I have no faith, in anything. Other people look out at the world and see law and order, and think to themselves: "This event will happen...". I don't. I see nothing but chaos and coincidences happening at about the same rate as statistics would predict. That might sound kinda depressing, but it actually brings a sense of comfort to me.
As much as I would like to be wrong and experience some kind of afterlife, wishful thinking doesn't make it true.
"I may be going to hell in a rocketship, but at least I get to ride in a rocketship. You have to climb those damn stairs. " - Katie Volker
I feel for your loss too, unfortunately, it is a very common occurence. I lost a wife, a sister-in law and a brother in less that 9 months, so I can understand the pain and the questioning. As for me, I agree with Hamby in that an eternity is an awful long damn time. If the afterlife were pure bliss I wonder how long it would take before chaos broke out from sheer boredom alone.
I never got to say goodbye to most of the people I have lost and I think it would be nice to, but this can't reconcile the lack of evidence for any particuliar afterlife. If there is something else after this life, I don't think it would be within the grasp of our understanding anyways. I guess the thought of no afterlife doesn't really bother me, but it might be nice for a little while if there was.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
I am so sorry to hear about your loss Maytacera, there's nothing worse than to lose your own children. I don't think a parent should ever have to bury their child. Unfortunately it does happen and it hurts so very much as you know. My feelings go out to you.
Brian 37 and shikko pretty much said what I would say and hambydammit did to except I don't fear death at all. I don't look for it or want it either.
After reading the bible and some reading of all the other religions I really don't want an afterlife. I accepted I just don't believe in an afterlife or some spirit god controlling everything. It makes no sense to me to read about a god saying if we don't believe we go to a hell and we no longer exist to the god. That is too human for a god described to be ...well.. a god and an all loving one unconditionally. Then it goes on to saying all who don't believe, worship, kiss ass will burn in hell. It makes no sense how can anyone be non existent and at the same time exist to be given (live in) a new body and thrown into a fire burning hell.
Even if there were a god and no threat of fire burning hell for not believing I still wouldn't want it. I like thinking I will just simply not exist. It's hard to wish for something that just makes no sense and why want an after life if people I love might not be in it with me. No animals, no pets to be with again. Who wants that..not me.
I didn't exist before I was born I see no reason to think I will after death. I didn't know where I was, if I was, before being born then I won't know after I'm gone. I will never see the people I loved again and never know it after my death. They live in me while I am alive and anyone else they knew and were loved by...that's good enough for me.
Yes and no.
Two nights ago, I had a dream in which I was caring for my 92-year-old grandfather. I woke up smiling.. until I remembered that he's been deceased for 4 months.
When I was little, I had a dream that I met all of my great-grandparents (all of whom passed away before I was born). When I woke up, I began crying because it was only a dream. My dad showed me pictures of them and told me I would meet them in heaven.
It's times like those that I wish there was an afterlife. There is so much I wish I could have learned from my relatives, that I never got the chance to. Even in the case of my grandfather, I grew up several hundred miles away from him, so I saw him infrequently. By the time I became a young teen and gained the maturity to ask him questions about his past, he had already suffered several strokes, leaving him with limited capactiy to express himself in English - and my Greek skills are not good enough to hold a conversation of that caliber.
But from the other point of view, lately I've been obsessed with the paranormal - an on and off fascination of mine since childhood. I don't like to think too much about it, because it creeps me the hell out, but something draws me to it. I've been watching a show on Discovery Channel called "A Haunting" in which victims who have lived in haunted houses tell their stories, which are dramatically reenacted. I sincerely hope that there is a scientific explanation for ghosts and the like, because I think it would be frightening for it to be possible to be controlled by something that transcends this world. So from that perspective, I hope there isn't anything after we die.
If there is an afterlife, it opens up so many questions that can really only be answered once we get there - where do unborn children go? What about innocent babies? Mentally disabled people unable to express themselves or comprehend the "word of god"? Which one of the 30,000 Christian denominations is right - and do the others get to burn in hell? Or have the Satanists been right all along?
That's why I find it pointless to worry about the afterlife. If it's there, well that's great - if it's not, I haven't wasted my whole life talking to an invisible man that doesn't exist. I guess it's best to wait and see.
Random idea. I hope I don't offend. Are you really missing the child/ren as a person or are you missing the child/ren as an anticipation of having the child around?
I'm the father of a 4 and 3 year old and I know them as people. As individuals. They have names I'm used to saying, personalities that I'm used to experiencing, etc. Missing a child I am not used to talking to, interacting with, experiencing on a daily basis is a little different than losing a child that never survived birth.
I know it's very emotional and I don't envy the experience in the least. It just seems a differnt matter to say you miss something that was a possibility that didn't come to fruition than something that did, you grew accustomed to having them around and how they acted and then lost.
I'm so sorry about your loss. I hope you continue to try and succeed in having a healthy and beautiful child/ren.
If I lose either of my two children before they have at least a few gray hairs on their heads I will selfishly rather wish I had lost them before we brought them home from the hospital rather than getting to know them as individuals and losing them.
I hope I didn't just come off as a bastard here. I fully admit I've never experienced what you have and therefore have no basis in comparison.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I have never experienced your sort of loss, but no I have never really hoped for that. I prefer to create my afterlife in the memories of others, just as your children live on with you.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-James Madison-
Sorry for your losses. My heart goes out to you and your fiance.
I hope to have a nice long life that gives me plenty of time to interact with my family and friends. An afterlife isn't something I'd care for. I don't believe there is a limit to time. Hanging around, literally forever, sounds torturous.
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
I can't say I hope for a afterlife. I understand people wanting to see loved ones again,but when your dead you won't know your missing them anyway. I actually think it's rather a relief,not having to worry about where you going to end up when Death comes with his scythe. This life is stressful enough without worrying about the next one right?
To quote Mark Twain: "I was dead for many years before my death and it didn't inconvience me the slightest."
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I don't think that I care much for an afterlife, at least not as prescribed by religion. Both concepts of Heaven and Hell just seem too horrible of a concept to me.
I have lost some relatives who were not only devout christians, but very nice and generous people. So at the time I hoped a little for their sake that I was wrong. Of course, could my grandfather really be happy in heaven, knowing that many of his grandchildren are going to be tortured for eternity just for not believing?
The problem with an afterlife is that you have to decide which religion is correct and then all of their rules apply which lead to more people suffering than benefitting from the afterlife.
It's all just wishful thinking. But i understand where you are coming from. Death is hard on the survivors...
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
I totally agree with this. Gold star for you!
In the spirits of 12 beers and 5 bong hits .... and them girls distracting me for the better ......
All is so literally connected that we could just as well say this is the "after life". "This is heaven." OR even this is the "pre life" .... all is ONE. So no worrys ....
Love is a plus starting from a "zero", so why do we zoom into the minus ?
The Buddhists talk about hanging on to the "middle" , .... that message really sinks in if just given a little meditation focus, the now and only the now. What can be lost ?
My dead loved ones are with me as always as I AM. All is me and eternal, I find peace in this. Thanks Buddha .... so simple it really is .... My dead friends are as strong as ever ..... I worry about suffering, not death, I've already done that, then I was born.
All that said, I still can not help but to cry .... Life is Pain .... Love is Sarrow.
Atheism Books.
I am sorry about your loss.
The idea of an afterlife is SO very enticing to me. It would mean immortality..... I don't want to cease living
I would be lying if I said "nope, I don't ever think about and I have never even let it cross my mind". However with that being said I would be pressed to imagine not the afterlife of clouds and angels and a god... but rather an afterlife of energy and light and perhaps a different existence entirely.
It is fun to imagine as long as it doesn't interfere with what is right in front of you and what you have control over now.
-Renee
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
If there is an afterlife and it is a pleasant place to be, it would have to be a place without BullShit, right? To say you can know or believe anything about an after life is complete BS. So if there is some kind of benevolent intellegent creator of this universe, he/she/it would only want to be around honesty and not BS like religion.
It's not wrong for you to hope there is an afterlife, but it's wrong to think you can force yourself to believe a myth story for which there is no evidence or that benevolent creator would reward you for being dishonest about the evidence to believe anything. So just be honest with yourself.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'd settle for any afterlife just without all the Bullshit(like religion and politics) of this world.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
...Well, I've considered this one a few times. Essentially, do I hope that I'm trapped as a character in the Allegory of the Cave, and all of my assumptions about reality are wrong?
That's a tough one to answer (or, answer with any integrity).
If I am, than that means there is so much more to be had and explored - and that is an attractive idea. On the other hand, do I really want to 'hope' that I'm living in absolute ignorance right now?
I don't think I can give a straight answer here. I love the notion that there is a whole 'nother experience to be had and playground to romp on waitng arund the bend; I despise the notion that our current world and experience and little more than a fabulous delusion, and that empirical study is - essentially - just a watse of time (in which case, the entire idea of exploration becomes rather moot).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
May- I am so sorry for your loss. I guess where I come down on your question is, well, assuming there was an afterlife (in the most generic sense, everyone goes there, and there's no "hell," that the afterlife is just a place where we reunite with departed loved ones) I personally would hope I had a choice whether to go to that afterlife or to die and cease being conscious. My reasoning is this: I think after eternal life, the only thing I'd want to do is die anyway. I'm not a depressed person by any means, it's just that when I did not disbelieve in god, my feeling was that if there was an immortal being, whether or not said being created the universe, he/she/it must be so exhausted and bored to death with life eternal that it would probably be suicidal if it could. So I have to wonder, what would I be like after thousands, even millions of years of an afterlife? Had I a choice, I would choose no afterlife over an afterlife. Assuming God, however, one doesn't have that choice. I will admit that my passions dictate an irrational conclusion: I "hope" there's no God, but that's only because I'd like to be right about this. I've only ever used "...makes me want to believe in God" as an exaggeration, usually among people who already know I'm an atheist. As uncomfortable as it may be, I'm not about to dismiss your question as "a moot point" that doesn't matter because I know I'm right. There have definitely been times, fewer recently than before, when I have wished there was someone watching over me who could hear my hopes and dreams and turn them into reality, but that was always in the context of a very emotional moment. I am so, so sorry for your loss, and I honestly have no idea how I would feel in your husband's place (and won't even venture to imagine how I would feel in your place, as I am of the male gender and don't think it appropriate for men to presume they can understand women's issues in the abstract. I hope I haven't upset you in any way. I saw this post the other day and waited to reply because I really had to think about your question, and I thought you deserved an honest and well considered answer.
I want to know that my heart goes out to you and you are in my thoughts. I understand that this must be am upsetting time for you, and I hope I have not offended you in any way. You seem like a very strong-willed person and I find your honesty to be most admirable. I think I speak for all of RRS when I say that if there's anything you'd like to talk about, we're here for you, and we're all rooting for you.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
It would depend on what exactly kind of life the afterlife offered. If I die in my 80's, and the afterlife involved me existing permanently as an 80-year old guy, then no. If I could somehow be put back into my 28 year old self, then I might consider it. Would I have to work in the afterlife? Eat healthy? Sleep? Do the laws of physics apply in the afterlife? There's many questions I would need answered before I could say if I had any interest in existing forever.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Just another thought on afterlife... It seems to me that in the evolution of religion the idea of reward/punishment in an afterlife is a big step in getting followers. I still haven't read the whole bible yet, but it is interesting that in the beginning there is no mention of it. The rewards/punishments offered are in the current life. In the time of Moses the are pages and pages of curses for non-followers. However rewards/punishments in this life are easily disproved when they don't happen. So moving them to an afterlife where no-one can discredit you is a great step forward in conning people. Religion is the greatest con of all time.
The next step, in Christianity is forgiveness for all sins and reward for faith in your suffering. This gives those who are truly desperate and have a real crap life hope of a reward in the next. I think this is why it has spread so far.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
So true ronin-dog
The bitch I have with the after life BS is that is diminishes this life. It makes killing easy, because god will "take care of the victim". The military loves "religion" for making killing easier ..... FUCKING PISSES ME OFF,
Geezzz I want to KILL KILL KILL Religion. "Hang" the POPE, that Devil ! and Jesus is with me on this .... Revenge is blessed .... speaking in metaphor there ....
PLEASE never KILL anyone ever ever, unless you absolutely have too, to perserve life.
Atheism Books.
First off, I'd just like to say thanks to everyone for their kind thoughts. I'm quite surprised to find such a supportive group of almost perfect strangers- bollocks on everyone who say Atheists are evil. Someone asked if I missed the babies because of who they were as people or because of their potential, and I suppose it was more the latter than the former. They were very beautiful children, and the represented the best part of my life at the time...I did love them quite a bit, but it was more the love that comes from a deep seated pride in your accomplishment than the love of appreciating values. That being said, I do miss them as well as the very close bond they created between my fiance and I.
Haven't figured out the quoting system on here, so most of my replies are going to be throwbacks to what I can remember being said.
Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about any particular god or afterlife here- just the general idea of life past death and such.
The reason I started the thread was 1) to gain opinions and see if this sort of thing ever happens to others...but it also served the purpose of finding perhaps another reason why people choose to believe in God. My thought process in that moment was "Wow. It's been 7 months since then, and in just one little moment of sadness I can find myself wishing there was an afterlife/god." I'm quite the strongwilled, hard headed person too. It makes me wonder if perhaps belief in god is in some cases the result of a moment of weakness...of sadness so great that it actually lead to wish so hard that something existed that you HAD to believe there was something greater.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
What if you're partially wrong/right?
Going to heaven doesn't necessarily solve anything. What if you get to heaven, then you rebel against god?
What if you find a strange deity sitting on a chair in judgment over you, and you had no clue of its existence or what it had required of you in life?
What if you discover that your afterlife doesn't last forever?
What if you discover that your meaning in life requires you to go to hell?
What if you discover an afterlife but no god?
Christianity just put together a small set of ideas in an arbitrary way. They by no means exhaust all the possibilities.
When my grandfather died a few years ago it was the most painful loss I have personally experienced. My throat and chest ached for a week and I cried a lot. I knew that he was gone forever and I would never see him again.
However, it didn't make me wish for an afterlife.
It was the first death that made my own death seem ok to me. If I lose everyone I love, I don't want to live any more.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Maytacera, I'm very sorry about your loss. For whatever biological reason, they were not meant to survive. If you really want children, I suggest that you keep trying. You will probably be successful.
This feeling of loss is probably what started religion in the first place. We all want to see our loved ones again. But as an atheist, I know that when you die (or before you are born), you cease to exist. That's it.
Hospital mistake actually. two different nurses were given orders to medicate me, ended up badly.
...that sounds horrible...
I'm sorry. I just noticed that people were getting on a roll with the "It wasn't meant to be" "genetic flaw" thing, and I wanted to cut it off early. There was no real positive effect to the loss or a deeper meaning, evolutionarily or spiritually.
If I imagine some better existence after this, it would not resemble the stories we get about 'Heaven'. My ideal would be a cleaner, less troubled version of this life, free of the diseases and conflicts of this one, with our basic needs taken care of, with plenty of interesting things to do, with the option of permanently and painlessly checking out into oblivion when I'd had my fill. The prospect of an eternity of boredom would be another kind of Hell..
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Maytacera, my condolences to you & the Mr. as well.
The only time I find myself thinking ( and for only an instant) that an afterlife would be cool is when I lose someone I love. But as someone else (sorry, I forget whom) posted upthread, I'd really only desire it because I'd get to talk to/see those dead loved ones one last time. I might be able to handle just enough time to say all the things I never got to say to all the people I've lost, but then I'd want the lights to go out permanently. I get bored quite easily, and an eternity... even in some sort of Heaven... would see me trying to find some way to END my tenure there quickly.
I'm one of those "my immortality consists of whatever I leave behind" types. I'm working on leaving behind as much as I can, be that simply memories in the minds of people whose lives I've touched in some way, my daughter, or the things I've written or performed during my lifetime.
Since giving up any pretense to belief in the supernatural, I find I'm actually more at peace with the idea of ceasing to exist and I make a far greater effort to say and do everything I feel needs saying or doing, especially with regard to letting people know what they mean to me. Any one of us can be gone in an instant. But I'm really ok with that now.
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
I wouldn't mind some sort of eternal oneness (a la borg), but the idea of being an individual for all eternity sounds terrible to me. After the first 520 trillion years, I'd imagine everything would be quite monotonous.
As far as being wrong about specific religions, I'm glad I'm right on this one. Even if the christian god was real and there was a heaven, I'd sooner spit in god's face than worship him. Genocide, infanticide, murder, condoning sexism, homophobia, slavery, and bigotry.. I'm sorry, but I'd definitely side with Satan on that one. Hell, the only thing satan ever did was give people the choice to gain knowledge, and create nifty things like sin, which are often quite fun. The same thing more-or-less goes for other religions as well.
First off I would like to give my condolences, I can't even start to imagine how it must feel, but I know it's never easy to lose anyone. I can still feel the loss of my Aunt, she recently passed away. She was about as nutty a chirstian as you can get, but she was still my aunt.
Anyway, to the point of wishing God existed and the afterlife. I think about it time to time. I would like for there to be a sort of "As Dreams May Come" sort of afterlife, one that is more like the best dream you've ever had. I would love there to be a heaven, but then I imagine what it would be like to live forever. Over time things would become so boring that life would start to become worthless, so ultimately I am glad life is limited.. but that doesn't mean I want it to be short. Death is real, and it's something for us in the here and now for us to fight. So don't wish for some type of Iron age fantasy for comfort, if you are going to dream, dream of what we mortals can do to make our lives better, longer, and who knows.. maybe even eternal if we can stand it. The answers are never easy, and sometimes it's nice to dip into fantasy, but just remember what makes the Atheist strong, and more likely to make a "Heaven" far better than than Abraham ever dreamed of.
To go beyond your limits you must first find them.
My heartfelt sympathies to you and your fiance. I've never lost a child, thankfully, but I've lost both parents and many others I was close to.
Even as a child I never really bought into the whole afterlife thing. Never thought about it much either. I've just always felt comfortable believing I'd pass into nothingness. No worries, or obligations, and no drama.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
I purposely did not read any of the replies to your thread because I have three children of my own who are all healthy and I just did not want to be influenced by anything anyone else wrote. Sometimes I think maybe there is some force out there who just hates my guts, but then I look at my kids and realize I have it all. I have been in prison for absolutely nothing, and it would be easy for me to attribute my problems to some higher cause, but if you really scrutinize your own life and every single thing that influences it, I think you will find a probable cause as to why things are as they are. This world is messed up in a variety of ways. Maybe you ate too much canned tuna, maybe you lived beneath power lines...our daughter started having seizures a week after my wife had a root canal, which involved her having her nerve drilled out and filled with a mercury-laced filling. I think there is a reason for everything, it's not that God hates you or that you are cursed or that you were born under a bad sign.
cool post kaab /////
We, each of us, is the supreme judge, and I DO object, I want MORE NOW, I AM impressed, so I am pissed , and then I die , but all I was , all I AM , will forever be .... what I AM will never die !
..... BTW, reincarnation just means recycle ? ..... sheeezzzz yeah, .... thanks Buddha/Jesus philosophy ! ..... and then Science said, 'shit yeah' , it seems testablely true ! Trust your own common sense ..... the god stuff of you ! WE are the godly shit !
Atheism Books.
Hey, I apologize if I came off as an asshole, sorry***
hey kaab ;
I thought your "ass" was very nice , so you got an asshole thingy ? Amazing ! LOL
FART ????
What is that smell ? Geezzz GOD ? What is going on here ? and what are these Beer Burps ? .....
Hey GOD , can we get along ???? Why not ???? Why should I be sorry ???
It's all your doing god, so quit messing with me .... Hey god, FUCK YOU, oh wait god , what I meant to say is I Love you ....... geezzz I AM so confussed , I can't find the right words Master .... please forgive me !
Atheism Books.