I agree that it is actions rather than belief thet is a problem. However belief colours the faithful's view on the world, their decisions and how they treat people. This is why religion is bad. For those who are deists, pantheists or whose beliefs are so weak that they don't really pay attention to them (etc) there isn't really a problem and i don't have a problem with them.

As to why confront the existence of god as well as religion and the actions of religion... I think what we really are trying to achieve is to wake people up, make them think and challenge their own beliefs, prejudices and doctrines (brainwashing). To have the biggest effect you need a multi-pronged approach. This is also why there are different types of atheist sites. Each has it's own style and therefore will reach a slightly different audience.

I like the ideas that are being thrown around on this thread. Christianity is an easy target for thinking people because it is predominant and it is illogical and it is a lie. It should have been discarded into the dustbin of history like Greek mythology, but it wasn't. Why? Because it came up with the ultimate hooks--greed, fear, ultimate power, omnipotence, evil, goodness. My wife is a Catholic, she looks a lot like the girl with the Darwin shirt on to my right, and you just try to tell her how evil the Catholic church is and how it continues to be a force of insanity in our world. You would be talking to a heroin addict with heroin in your hand in a little baggie, trying to convince them not to do it. Religion is that strong, it tears people from their senses, it creates this us vs them mindset. To get at the heart of the matter, it is quite simply wrong and foolish and ridiculous.

While all religions are irrational the imaginary god of Abe and all its incarnations is vile and dangerous. I think you'll find most of the more passionate posts are directed towards fighting the influence and power of the false god of Abe.

As far as attacking the actions and not the actual religion is concerned. As long as people are using the bible, koran or some other "holy" book they will have the justification, in their minds anyway, to push their god down the throats of the unsaved. The clergy of all religions exists to gather as many to their "flock" as they possibly can. Many will do and say whatever accomplishes that goal.

It may be helpful to keep in mind that there is no universal doctrine or master plan that all Atheists must follow in the, likely, eternal struggle against the danger to humanity that is theism.

While I agree that faith by itself is not a major problem, and that any form of fundamentalism is bad, when that faith is joined by religion it starts to influence peoples world view, introducing bias and prejudice. This is where even moderate religion is damaging. It tells people what to think and believe. Extremists are of course the most worrying. We have seen that in the communist revolutions (although I could argue that they elevated their leader(s) to the state of virtual god in the eyes of the people and made nationalism their religion) and in sport riots/hooligans (what could be more pointless?). However even milder religious beliefs sow the seeds for exremists, and there are a million shades of grey in between. You don't need violence to be damaging people.

This is true, and is one of my biggest problems with religion in general, aside from the fact that it makes people less discriminating between reality and fantasy. Religion is not the only problem however. The problems are fear and irrationality. This is what causes murdering and suffering. Religion is just too inextricably bound up with fear and by its nature it rejects rationalism. Even moderate religious or superstitious beliefs.

There "should" be no right or wrong here... but thats what religion is, a constant battle of what is right & wrong, and what is good and bad.. Its a power struggle... Karl Marx would say that Society needs religion to be stable as per the conflict theory... Its just what people do to interact... we are proving this just by our posts on this thread

People simply stating their opinion and then others arguing against it... is this not what makes the world go round?... Its how we act on our beliefs that is corrupting society...

although if the world was to start over Im sure it would happen the exact same way... People need to believe and we are all Stubborn and have a self centered way about it... "My way is the Only way, and you should believe it too!!!"

Religion is "Man Made", but its also "Human Nature"...

Awesome thread!!!

I believe that people can worship anything they damn well want to.

I have always wondered about this worship stuff.

People: We worship you, oh Lord.
Sky Voice: So worship me already.
People: Great rocks! Love that sky!
Sky Voice: I said worship. Those are compliments!
People: How shall we worship you?
Sky Voice: Don't follow the gourd for Me's sake.
People: But we don't know how to worship you.
Sky Voice: Then why did you say you do?
People:[Shuffling around] Because you told us to?
Sky Voice: When did I do that?
People: We read it in your book.
Sky Voice: You think I need a book to tell you something? Now bugger off!

Anyway, a dispassionate view of religion in the Christian/Islamic sense first creates a problem, you need saving, and then prescribes a solution to the problem it created.

Obviously a few answers would come to mind: if we debate this, and make good arguments, then people will be more likely to stop believing.

People enjoy believing. It is built into us because mammals in general and the larger the brain the more important it is to learn to imitate ones parents as children/cubs/pups/whatever. It is day to day survival. Our ancestors learned to imitate their parents and run away from big cats. Even down to civilized times occupations were hereditary and even today they often are.

If you examine all of life you find that an accepting belief in religion is the smallest part of what we accept by instinct.

So is it impossible to beat religion? You can only believe that if you do not look at how pervasive religion used to be in everyday life. Here is a question with a very unobvious answer.

What technological or scientific advance was the greatest setback to religion?

It was not Darwin and evolution. It was not realizing the size of the universe. It was not vaccination. It was the lightning rod.

Ever since churches and temples were built tall or on high places something evil was attacking houses of worship. Where prayer failed to bring the devil to heel, a rod of iron and a strip of copper worked. Some ministers and priests at first condemned it. Those who used it had their churches saved. Soon all adopted it.

And with that their god began its long retreat into the gaps of the unexplained. The pace of scientific and technical progress has accelerated such that the gaps of rapidly become smaller with the domain of this god retreating accordingly.

In my lifetime god has retreated from an active force to a guiding concept in religious thought. That is a gap theoretical science is learning to express in practical terms today.

Bottom line here is patience. In my 60+ years there has been a massive change due to science leading engineering rather than clever inventors. Believers are backing themselves into a level of abstraction that makes not difference in the real world. Except for American rednecks of course.

In Europe the American redneck is a rarity. Concern over the influence of religion is in fact mostly an US concern. The rest of the Americas have imitated Europe.

In the long run, this is not a fight that has to be engaged. It is a fight that every technical advance is making for us because all previous advances have, if not loosened the grip of religion, moved it to another level of abstraction where it has less and less to do with everyday life. In the old days, a sneeze got a "God bless you" that was meant. Today major surgery is about the only health issue that elicits prayer. When people survive they first thank modern medicine not the sky voice.