Here's something I wrote just for people in your position.

Of course.  That's why we're here.

I can't speak for everyone, but as far as the core members, we're here to help anybody who has an open mind.  People who accept things on blind faith do make us angry, but our goal is to help people who want to learn, or who want help.

It's impossible to fear something you don't believe exists, right?  Do you fear fire breathing dragons?  You can work up an idea of what kind of fear you would experience if you met one, but that doesn't mean you really fear them.

Yes, I fear the power of religion.  People in big groups blindly following orders are really, really scary.

This has always seemed like a cop out position to me.  If there is a god, then what does he want from people?  If he doesn't want anything, what relevance does he have to my life?  Why even discuss it?  If he wants something, then there's some religion that's correct, even if we haven't discovered it yet.

Furthermore, it's usually not that simple with people who are 'spiritual but not religious.'  Talk with them long enough, and you'll usually discover that some of what they believe about life coincides with whatever religion they were brought up with, but now reject.  In other words, they're picking and choosing what they like about religion, but ditching the church services.

It can be.  Please read that essay I linked to.  I think it sums things up really well.

Then, read this essay:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/why_are_atheists_so_angry_0

I'm just guessing about this, so don't hold me to any actual numbers, ok?  How many churches have you seen in your life?  Thousands, probably.  They're all about converting people to religion, right?  Take a guess how many churches there are in the world.  Hundreds of thousands?

That's just churches.  There are missions, Christian music companies, Christian button makers, bumper sticker manufacturers, ad companies... The list goes on and on.

Now, how many billboards have you ever seen preaching atheism?  Ever been accosted by a street preaching atheist?  Other than this site, how many atheist websites can you name that are actively trying to convert people?

You see my point?  Most atheists aren't particularly interested in preaching to people.  In my experience, most of them just want to live their lives.  If you read the second essay (Why are Atheists so Angry) you'll see that that's all most of us want, but things have gotten so bad that we feel we have to speak up.

I'm a kitty cat.  Of course I'll be gentle.

Like you,I was brought up religious,but fairly recently I became atheist. I know that when you are theist,atheism does sound terrible. Mainly because you are misinformed.Just the fact that you are willing to go find out for yourself is admirable

There are lots of very clever people here,and they are always willing to answer genuine questions. You may find people seem angry at theism,this is usually because when you realise you've been lied to and have wasted years living that lie,you get a bit pissed. I can assure you though,no one will attack you for being a theist,unless you troll. We're here to help people get over their theism

We don't fear god, because we don;t believe he exists. We may fear the results of religion,and that is why we fight it. It is a very dangerous thing.People who bleieve in god are still deluded,even if less dangerous.

Most atheists will indeed tell you they are happier without their former religion,and better people for it. I don't know why so many posts seem angry to you. It is true that when a theist posts the same questions that have been answered a thousand times before,people get annoyed and can be rude or sarcastic. If you ask honest,meaningful questions though,you will be treated accordingly.

I would say that atheists do feel an obligation to help people get over their beliefs. Not only for the persons sake,but society's. When you are freed,you want other people to be too

I understand you may know nothing of atheism.I was very misinformed about it when I was a theist.As I am a fairly recent de-convertee, I would like nothing more than to help with your questions if it will clear any misconceptions and give you a better idea of us.

 A question for you.You seem to be a chrsitian.Is this right?

Thanks for the answers and for being gentle. I was a little apprehensive about posting.

My comment about not swearing off God and having much to learn simply meant I am realizing I really don't know much about religion or athesim. You can be raised a certain religion all of your life and still not know much. And yes I was raised in a christian family.

Let me say nothing horrible has happened to me to where I am filled with anger at christians. I simply am at a place in my life where I am wanting to know if what I have been taught all of my life is true. Not to exciting I guess but the truth. What I am not looking for is anger or bitterness. In other words if I should find atheism a sweeter cup of tea I would not be angry or hate christians because I had finally found what is true. You see I believe we all are responsible to learn for ourselves. Nothing stopped me from researching before now. I was just content to carry on with life the way I always had. Well now that isn't so true. That is something I do find hard to understand. Maybe I have a Pollyanna kind of thinking but why should I be angry if you don't believe in God or if you do? I have never feared atheists but had been given negatives views of your beliefs all of my life.

I am finding this forum very interesting. I will read the link I just wanted to respond and say thanks and answer the couple of questions. I will post more after I finish reading since you have made me feel welcome.

Hunter

I know your questions have already been answered, but the more points of view you get the better. We don't have a dogma, we are all individuals.

If you keep your posts like this, i doubt that you will get any anger directed towards you.

Atheists believe in lots of things, we just don't believe in gods. That is the definition, it is up to each individual to believe whatever else we like.

I don't fear God and I am not angry at him, he just doesn't exist. I don't fear religion, but it disgusts me, I loathe it. It is a mental disease that is destroying the planet. Even in its mildest forms it manipulates people and tells them what to think and believe. I am glad that you are on the path to curing yourself.

The people who believe in God but aren't religious go into two loose catagories (please don't crucufy me pantheists): non-practicers (christians or whatever who don't really believe any more, but haven't let go. Some will be in a transition phase like yourself) and deists (people who believe there is a god/s but that he/she has better things to do than worry about our sex life or whether we love him/her). Deists are ok because they have no religion and therefore noone telling them what to think. Agnostics are undecided, they are ok too.

Everyone would like to be happy and carefree, but we live in the real world. We are concerned with the reality of what is going on around us. At least in our spare time we don't have to stress about whether we love god enough or whether we are going to hell for checking out the ass on a women we're not married to.

A lot of people who have just converted or who are just starting to become more aware as an atheist get angry for a time at the deceit, brainwashing and injustices going on. I still get angry from time to time. But we are not angry people most of the time, just om a situational basis.

I don't push my (dis)belief on people but I feel honestly sad and sorry for people living in a religious delusion, so if they are open to it I will discuss it with them. I would like everyone to be free from having that crap in their head influencing their lives.

Good luck on your journey.

I am learning a lot and appreciate the time you give to help me learn. I am sure many of you get sick of explaining everytime someone like me comes along.

Why be mad at the people you may have agreed with at one time? Aren't we all raised believing whatever the adults around us believe? Just a natural thing. When we become adults we have the responsibility to find out if what we have been told is true. I do not believe you are brainwashing people, (children) anymore than a religious person is brainwashing the children in their lives. Look we are all told something growing up. Had my family been atheisit I would have been too. What do you tell your children if you have any? Wouldn't you tell them there is no God? If so what if they grow up and hate you for brainwashing them and then told you you were responsible for almost making them go to hell? Am I making any sense?

You see I am finding out for myself what is out there and what the truth is for me. I only know now that happiness is what I want. If all I had was anger and bitterness why not remain in the religious community? They have many hangups that may or may not have anything to do with God.

Ok I'm reading.

Hunter

Quick answer. I did read it in its entirety. Yes I have always been treated fairly and not discriminated against so I guess I do not understand. However, help me as I do want to learn how the atheist have been treated. Never really looked at it and just assumed it was a happy place to be.

But it is brainwashing.  That's the point.  Religion is a lot like smoking in one way.  How many people do you know who begin smoking in their thirties?  The reason cigarette companies target children is that adults know better.  In the same way, if you've ever known an adult who came to America from a highly secular country (Like Sweden or the Netherlands, for instance) they usually think religious belief is pretty silly.  They never even consider converting to Christianity because they were not conditioned as a child to believe things that appear false.

Furthermore, it appears that humans "imprint" much like other animals.  If you're not familiar with this, I'll give you an example.  Some birds learn their songs from their parents.  If you take a baby bird away from its parent during a certain "imprinting period," usually around 24-72 hours after birth, it will NEVER learn the song, and won't get to mate as an adult.

The taboo against incest is a good argument for imprinting in humans.  There are hardly any cases of brothers and sisters having sex.  It's not because the laws against it are so strong.  In fact, there are precious few laws about it, anywhere in the world.  The reason it doesn't happen is that brothers and sisters don't want to screw.  The question is why.

In studies with separated twins, step children, and other non-genetic siblings, it has been found that children who live together in the same family from somewhere around 3 years of age to 12 or 13 simply have no significant sexual desire towards their siblings, whether they are biologically related or not.  This is imprinted, not taught.

I'm not aware of any scientific studies dealing specifically with religious indoctrination and this proposed "human imprinting period," but I feel pretty certain of the results based on other studies.  For instance, well over 90% of theists in America were raised in theist homes.  In other words, less than 1 out of 10 people raised in nonreligious homes become religious.  Remember, atheism is the default state.  In other words, you were born atheist.  You had to be taught that there was a god.  So, think of theism as comparable to smoking again.  Suppose you had these stats in front of you (I'm making them up for illustration.)

90% of children who start smoking live in households with at least one smoker.

5% of children who start smoking live in households with no smokers, but have other close relatives who smoke.

2% of children who live in smoke free environments until after the age of 18 become smokers.

10% of all people reaching age 18 without smoking will become smokers later in life.

If you were presented with these facts, you would accurately induce that exposure to smokers in childhood is a huge factor in whether someone starts smoking.  We see the same things with religion.  Religion is intrinsically tied to childhood, and those who make it out of childhood without religion rarely pick it up.

Most of the atheist parents I know don't tell their children the answer.  They teach their children how to think critically and use logic.  When the children ask about god, the parents encourage them to answer the question themselves.

I'm sure there are some atheist parents who dogmatically beat atheism into their children (metaphorically, of course).  I'd guess that these children are more likely to pick up religion, because atheism isn't about dogma.  It's about logic.  If you have to beat it into somebody, you're not very good at teaching good thinking.  Atheism is a no-brainer.  It really is.

(I know it seems like a more complicated question to you, else you wouldn't be wondering about it.  This is a great example.  Even though you are stepping away from your childhood indoctrination, it's very difficult for you to see how obvious it is that the whole god thing is silly.)

If you knew me in person, you'd have a different perspective.  I'm one of the happiest people you've ever met.  I know this because everybody tells me that.  I wasn't able to be this happy until I ditched religion.  It is my love of my fellow man, along with my anger at being treated unfairly, that motivates me to do this.  All people see here is my focused anger towards theism.  Ask anyone who knows me.  I'm a very happy dude.

Do you ever think it's appropriate to be angry? If so, when?

Man, I am posting a lot. That's what working graveyards does, I guess. Need to stay awake.

Anyhow, I won't quote a post here and want to respond to the opening post and the general feeling within this thread. I grew up looking at the universe with awe and wonder. I then became a Christian and that changed to awe and wonder about God. Now, taking God out of the equation does not make the universe less beautiful. In fact, I am more aware of my place in the universe now than I ever was inside a church. Every night I walk to work and I have the stars overhead (when it isn;t raining, stupid BC weather) and I am back to the awe factor.

I am NOT an angry person. That said, I am rather offended that me decided that I cannot believe in God anymore seems to make me less of a person in some peoples' eyes. My wife went so far as to threaten to leave me if I declared myself an atheist. We have been together almost ten years and I have never shouted at her, raised a hand to her or our kids. I don't drink, use drugs or go out with friends. I watch our kids, watch movies and work 40 hours a week on graveyards so my wife can work any day shift she can find. So, how many of my friends will turn against me when they find out I am an atheist? The reaction people get to telling others their belief in no God is what makes people defensive and upset.

Just look around and do research, objective research on God, the Bible and on science that relates to geology, archeology. It brought me here and has the potential to change your life. This forum and atheists in general are not as unfriendly as people think.

*** If this seems like rambling, I apologize, going on 30 hours of no sleep.

You have every right to be angry if that is what you choose. I am not trying to take that away from you. I am simply searching and had a view point of atheism that is obviously wrong. I came here expecting something else. My problem not yours. Never meant to put it on you.

At this point in my life I am looking for people who are content and happy with their choices. I may never find that. I guess I was looking at your belief or non belief as a release from anger and hangups. Trying to live up to something unknown and unseen. I had the christians or I should say all religious people as the angry hung up ones.

Please accept my apology.

hunter

It's funny - I noticed that myself, but once you're on the forum a while, you'll notice it's all tongue-in-cheek. There are people who come on the forums to stir up trouble, and some of the responses to that are absolutely hilarious. It's a fun group.

You can't really escape suffering, but you don't have to lie to yourself in the process. Also, being happy (or content or whatever) is usually a temporary condition, just like sadness or anger. Believe me, you don't need an extra supernatural thingy to experience joy or anguish. But the relief at not having to pretend you believe something you really don't is very liberating.

Now that you've shown your views on atheism, what are your views on Theism?

Well most of my experience has been from a christian perspective. Not much background in other religions.

Many Christians seem to be happy and content. Some of my confusion has been the belief that Christ saved us and yet our actions or works as it is called is still such a driving force. Now I know we all need to have some rules and morals just to keep society a nice place to be however, many believers seem to have so many hangups of what they consider to be right and wrong. If we can't ever live up to what we need to to be accepted by God and Christ died for us why is there so much judgment and fear among believers?

But again I am generalizing them as I did atheist. When I came here I saw what I believed to be angry people and yet MOST of you assure me you are not that angry and are basically happy. Believers would give me the same arguments but it still seems to me they are hung up somewhat on rules and full of criticisms.  

I do like the idea of having a heaven to go to when I leave here. Why wouldn't I? That is not my problem with Christianity.

I am just trying to figure out if it is really based on a God who gave us his word through the Bible or an idea created by man. I have problems with some of God's chosen people who basically tell me I don't have everything I want in life because my faith was never strong enough. To me they are saying if you are poor or have problems in life it is your fault because you didn't believe enough. I have seen people in very poor countries who have nothing and yet their faith is greater than most. So why are they suffering? How do we know if God is for us or against us? Is my faith strong enough or am I just playing a game with myself? Christianity is very confusing.

I am not an angry person though. I'm not mad at Christians and trying to disprove what they stand for. Just trying to find what is right for me. Right now I don't feel responsible for everyone else. Up to them to figure it out as well. What is the point of only having this life and spending most of it angry. Now don't jump on me. I'm not trying to rob you of your right to be angry. Just isn't important to me. At least not now. Should I announce I have become atheist and am treated unfairly that could change. Right now looking for something else.

Hunter

Sorry, this is completely off topic.  I am fairly new to the RRS list and I cannot find the means to start a new thread here.  Can somone clue me in?

Thanks

If it is knowledge you seek, I suggest then you read these:

Finding Darwin's God

God Delusion

God's universe

Breaking the Spell

I've read all of them.

I haven't read "Finding Darwin's God," but I can endorse the other three.  Great books.  If you've got an extra thirty minutes, you might as well pick up "Letter to a Christian Nation."  It is not the philosophical or scientific tour de force that some of the others are, but it gives a very good layman's explanation for why atheists are justified in being actively opposed to theism.

This is a great idea.  I recommend it highly.  Maybe, if you're pretty outgoing, you should go out of town and try a few public places where you can talk to people and tell them at some point that you're an atheist.  You may not want to do it in your town because it could cause long term issues for you.

Actually, I'd state it a little differently.  Most problems are caused by people believing that faith is a virtue.  Some things are true despite all appearances to the contrary.

See that stack of papers by scientists detailing exactly how humans are contributing greenhouse gases?  Don't worry about it.  God says there is no global warming, and Bush agrees.

Abstinence only education?  Yeah, the science says it's a terrible idea, but morality is above science.  Kids should not be taught about sex.

Evolution?  Who cares about all the evidence.  We should teach creationism alongside.

Our relationship is suffering.  Who cares that all the stats show that marriage doesn't solve relationship issues.  If we get married, it'll be different.

I could go on and on and on.  Believing things despite a complete lack of evidence, or despite evidence to the contrary -- FAITH -- is the cause of most people's problems.

Hunter,

Did you read my essay "Is this really all there is?"

If you did, I'd like to hear your comments on it.  It's been over a decade since I asked those questions for the first time, and I'd like to know if I made any strong impressions.  You are literally the poster child for my target audience with that essay.

Thanks for the last response. I'd like to think not everyone is filled with resentment and that there is a true desire to understand. If someone does try to change or enlighten me on my beliefs I choose to believe it is out of conern for me rather than resentment towards other beliefs. If I really decide there is a place called hell I'd feel horrible about anyone going there. What other reason would there be for me to care what you believe? I know there are a lot of reasons for some but not for me.

I did read the essay. I found it very interesting and informative. I am still thinking about it. I have re read it a couple of times. I'm a little slow and like to process info slowly. It kind of boils down to no one really knows and all information is really from man. Science is right until proven wrong. Sounds kind of simple but how do we really know?

Hunter

In general, we don't really care what other people believe. That's what freedom of belief is all about. You get to choose what to believe, and live your life according to your own doctrines.

As someone once stated, your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. As soon as your beliefs affect me, I begin to care what you believe. Take this whole Intelligent Design fiasco. Although intelligent design has been proven to be unscientific, there is a political group that is trying to get ID taught in school science classes. This affects me, as it affects the quality of the education our children receive, and our children are the ones who hold the future in their hands, and they damned well better be prepared to take care of me in the style to which I'd like to become accustomed. "Fetch me that beer, young'un. Chop-chop!"

The religious resistance to allowing homosexuals to marry also affects me. Not directly, as I am a happily married heterosexual (really I am!), but I have friends who would like to also be happily married. And I say, let homosexuals be able to make the same mistakes we make. Stop trying to save them from themselves.

So there are a lot of selfish reasons to care what other people believe. And if you listen to modern Christian rhetoric, it's all about getting their way, and not about saving souls from eternal hell-fire. So it's not just atheists at work here.

Other than that: I'd love to live in a world were a person's belief didn't affect how they were treated, Christian, atheist, homosexual, or country-music listener. (Actually, if we could launch a tactical nuke to take out country music, but leave y'allternative alone, that might be a good place to start cleaning up the world.)

That's why protecting our secular society is so important.

How do we really know? Because it works. Science has given us a coherent (though incomplete) view of reality. This is proven by making predictions from what we know, and testing those predictions against reality. As we fill in the blanks, new blank spots appear. Sometimes it seems blank spots appear faster than we can fill them in, but the important thing is, science gives us actual, practical, testable results.

Like the computer you are using to read this message. Like the airliner that takes you from place to place. Like those things with six drumsticks that have been genetically engineered from chicken that they sell at KFC. (That's not real. But it's fun.) Science has consistently given us correct answers that are testable against reality, and that give us practical things.

There is no other epistemology that has given us such practical and provable knowledge. None.

Science isn't as often wrong as a lot of people would have you believe. It is often incomplete, but that does not make it wrong. Science is all about filling in the gaps in our knowledge and understanding. Sometimes we reach a point where we realize we didn't fully understand the question, and so our understanding changes. This happened with the discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics. We realized Newtonian dynamics did not explain everything. This didn't do away with Newtonian dynamics. We still use it, every day. We get to the moon, and fling spacecraft at distant planets, using Newtonian dynamics. However, we discovered there's more to the world than just a thrown ball, or a spaceship to the moon.

If you want to know if something is true, merely look at how effective it is in predicting new knowledge. That is, predicting new knowledge beforehand. Going back and saying, "The Bible predicted the forming of Israel in 1947." No, it didn't. There are vague lines that may be interpreted that way, but it didn't predict it beforehand, just after the fact. Those same lines could equally be linked to events hundreds of years ago.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It's just a question that is very dear to me: "How can we know?"

wow, a lot has been posted in one day....

I was raised in an atheist family, but I was not brainwashed. I only really remember one discussion with my father on the subject. He told me that he didn't believe, but that I should investigate everything and make my own decision. He encouraged me to read the bible so that I would know what I would know what it was all about.

I still haven't finished it... but I would encourege you to read at least bits of it, not just the bits that you are told to read (even those bits, look at what they actually say, and keep reading for a few passages afterward). I suppose I can't really be 100% sure that there is no god (but I am damn close to that) but I am 100% sure that the bible and therefore the religions based on it are fiction.

I am completely content and happy with my choice. I feel no emptiness inside or need for anything other than the real world. I am generally a happy person. But no one is 100% happy. If you see someone who appears happy all the time they are either hiding their true feeling or suffering from a mental illness (possibly religious overload), or both. It is not a natural state to feel one thing all the time.

I have never been persecuted for being an atheist (I do live in Australia though). I am still relatively quiet about it though, even though it is more acceptable here you never know who is strongly religious or what their reaction would be.

My wife and I were married in a civil ceremony. We don't believe in God and yet we chose to be married. Why shouldn't homosexuals be able to do the same if they choose? I understand what you mean by the label, they could call it anything and it would be the same. But it is about the symbolism of marriage. It's just not the same to say "we're in a legally binding contract". Why are christians so defensive of the word "marriage"? Don't say it is because it is the word that God used, the bible wasn't written in English. Giving homosexuals an official union would be accepting that they are ok to exist. I think this is what the church opposes. In Iran they execute them, just like christians used to do.

Because it is contrariwise to what empirical inquiry into the universe has revealed. This severely undermines its knowledge claims. Whenever two contrary assertions are measured, it is best to back to the foundations on which they rest. So, where there is a method which uses a preponderance of fact to create coherent theories used to explain and predict phenomenon and concomitant facts, and it makes knowledge claims, these claims can be judged against what supports them. On the other hand, where there is no method or justification for knowledge claims, it is not rational to hold them as justified true belief. And if these two come into conflict...guess who loses?

There was marriage long before there was Christianity. Hindus get married. Muslims get married. Native Americans get married. Atheists get married. Why do you think Christians have some mysterious special claim on the word, or even the concept? It has nothing to do with Christianity, except that Christians attach their own peculiar theistic interpretation onto it. Sorry. Neither the word nor the concept belong to Christians.

First, the descriptions of events are contrary to much of the pertinent discoverable history. So that's a start.

Second, the entire case for the validity of the Bible rests on the existence of God. I don't know how many times I've heard this argument:

  a. How do you know God exists?

  b. The Bible told me.

  c. How do you know the Bible is true?

  d. Because God wrote it.

I'm completely serious. This is almost verbatim a conversation I had way back in my youth. And I've heard the same argument hundreds of times since then. Usually, it's much more sophisticated, but in the end, that's the entire logic for the justification for the truth of the Bible. (I was married to a fundamentalist Christian. We had many lively debates. She only used this argument on me once. After that, it was the people she had over that tried it on me.)

Anyway, since atheists don't believe in God, there's no evidence that it's not fiction.

Thirdly, and this is most important, the Bible contradicts empirical evidence. As this has been covered in another post, I won't bother going over it again. However, if you have specific questions, please feel free to ask. I'll answer what I can, and others will answer what they can.

Oh! I'm sorry if I implied anything other than you were asking an honest, simple question. I didn't take it as an attack at all, nor did I think you were against the idea per se. So far you've given no evidence that you aren't being sincere and curious. I was just trying to answer the question to the best of my ability. I know I use the term "Christians" to refer to a whole group of people, which is really a diverse group with many disparate ideas and ideals. I apologize if you felt I was obliquely referencing you. I wasn't. I'm not passive-aggressive. If I mean "you," I will say, "you."

I hope you mean you are only quitting for the evening. I really have enjoyed this so far. And, I hope you have too.

I know this can be overwhelming sometimes. Me, I'm addicted to this site like I used to be addicted to Slashdot years ago. So I get a little over-exuberant.

I also was brought up in a very religious family. I went to years of parochial school, I was an altar boy, and in the choir. I was Lutheran and became Catholic when I married to simplfy things.

Years ago I read the works of Ayn Rand a noted writer and atheist too. I agreed with much she wrote but just couldn't get how she could not believe. Over 20 years ago I began to research ancient history as a hobby at first. It expanded into researching religion as well. When the Internet arrived I used it extensively to research topics, history, and religion. Many on this site seem to center on philiosophy or evolution as the cause for their disbelief, mine was more based on history of other civilizations indicated much in the Bible wasn't accurate or real. I had already accepted evolution years before as the most likely theory despite the Christian upbringing, so when I saw that the Bible had errors compared to Assyrian literature or archealogical finds, I pretty much was done with it. I have probably read the Bible through 20 or more times in several versions. I think one should understand what it says and doesn't say. Most professed Christians do not really know what they believe and definitely do not know why.

The only thing I fear from religion is the discrimination that it brings into our laws. How can you fear that which doesn't exist? I fear the like of Jerry Falwell selling lies to his followers. In the U.S. generally people just assume you believe, and unless they know you they sometimes freak when they find out you don't. My research convinced me that religions especially those based on Yahweh, God of Abe, are all based on myths and legends. If you study the ancient religions of Caanan it stands out, at least to my perspective. 

As others have said sometimes there are those here that don't want knowledge they are just trolling. I personally have no anger at theists and don't seek fights with them. If as happens I get cornered, I will draw on my knowledge of scripture and show them in detail why their arguements are useless. As others have said, I have what I see as a happy life. I look forward to every day and I try to learn something new as well. After I concluded this was all there was, I lost my fear of death completely. That doesn't mean I will try sky diving without a parachute however, or run red lights.