Do American politicans really believe in god?
Posted on: March 23, 2008 - 1:05pm
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Do American politicans really believe in god?
Heard a interesting point from Richard Dawkins, he doesnt actually think most American politicans actually believe in god. They just claim to do so for political purposes. To be honest I don't think he believes any educated person believes in religion (outside America this is generally true).
I would assume the only way to exam this would be to survey the top 10% of the population (educationaly wise) to which politicans belong
Jon Pastafarian Cabin Boy of London UK
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American politicians seem to believe in being re-elected and little more. They try to be all things to all people, just look at the Clinton-Obama competition. As an American I have tried to understand just WTF a certain politician's position may be before I vote for them. More than likely what I thought they were saying turned out to be not what they actually did once they were elected.
Dawkins may not appreciate how Americans can dupe themselves into accepting obvious BS. Look at the last 7 years of GW Bush for example. How he was ever able to get re-elected when the obviously false reasons for the Iraq invasion had already come to light is beyond me. It appears to be better TV Ads.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Politicans are generally in educational elite in most countries, They certainly have skills that are incredibly useful manipulation, charisma , fast thinking empathy etc. Don't confuse that with any moral judgements but it would be absurd to forget that politicans are infinitely more intelligent than most the people who elect them
What you don't hear from most of the masses is exactly how the candidate relates to them on issues of importance.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I hate arguments like that. 'Oh that person just claims to be Christian.' Based on nothing, and is no worse than when Christians say that somebody claims to be Christians.
The truth is there is no way to tell. Unless they express they are atheists, than I have every reason to take their word for it when they say they are Theist.
The blunt fact of the matter is, both major US parties know where their bread is buttered.
I consider religious lobbies and intrests the same way I consider corporate and political ones - afterall, in the end, the same end is apparant: people purporting to represent you bow to interest groups - be they backed by god, pharma, or Haliburton.
The system we have in place now is so broken, it doesn't represent any of us, but make sure you vote for "change" next election cycle by supporting one of the two parties who have brought us to our current state. lol.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
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I don't know what is worse...wanting to believe most of these politicians to be smart enough not to believe in God and just telling us they do believe so they can get votes from the majority of Americans who happen to be religious, or actually all of them believing in God. I think Sam Harris summed up part of this in showing that in a survey of people about who they were most likely to vote for among a field of women, blacks, gays, and atheists; atheists were at the bottom of the list. There are definitely people out there that would not vote for someone if they are perceived to not believe in a God, any God. Most politicians do look at polls and while some might not go to church and be religious, in certain parts of the country it would be political suicide to acknowledge one's atheism. All one needs to do is to look at this article about Pete Stark, a democratic congressman since 1973, who just came out as an atheist in 2007. http://www.secular.org/news/pete_stark_070312.html
The most striking thing in the article is the ending that says this:
Surveys vary in the percentage of atheists, humanists, freethinkers and other nontheists in the U.S, with about 10% (30 million people) a fair middle point. "If the number of nontheists in Congress reflected the percentage of nontheists in the population," Lori Lipman Brown, director of the Secular Coalition, observes, "there would be 53-54 nontheistic Congress members instead of one."
I would say the truth probably lies between Dawkins' estimates and these numbers, although I would say the vast majority of atheists in government would fall on the progressive and libertarian side and the minority to fall on the conservative republican side. I think a lot of politicians really understand the overall framework of belonging to a religious system has incredible advantages of galvanizing support on issues according to your ideology using religious language, using the adherents to fundraise for you and your causes, and getting people to support you simply because you share the same "morals and values" you get from your religion. This creates a very powerful in group/out group mentality that can't be denied for political utilization. I think with each generation attaining greater access to knowledge(science in particular) along with the existence of groups like the rrs becoming more public figures in the media debate concerning religion and rational beliefs that the shift of theism to atheism will skew to atheism exponentially within the next few generations.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Well, I think it's not just politicians that lie about believing in God. I've been around religious folk enough to say that they all lie about what they really "believe" or are so highly delusional they could not function in the real world. I don't believe one can believe out of fear(of Hell) or wishing very much(for heaven). Faith is a total bullshit concept. Religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy cause you lie to yourself. Please read what I believe about "believers":
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/12549?page=1
W. Bush is a perfect example. He started out indoctrinated with religion as a child(Delusional about Belief), then he became a hard parting good old boy(Don't Care), then he had a mid-life crisis and turned to religion(Lying about Belief). He holds two sets beliefs, one for the real world, the other for when he is tring to get the religious right on his side.
I've been trying to convince people here that religion is all about lying to yourself. If you tell a lie enough it becomes the truth. I'm glad to see Dawkins is starting to see the real truth. Now if he'll just see that politicians are just the tip of the iceberg, perhaps he'll retitle "The God Delusion" as "The God Belief Lie".
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen