Surprised by Hope by NT Wright
I haven't read this book, but it is getting a lot of play in the press up here from religious columnists who seem to think that Wright makes some kind of earth shattering historical defence of the notion that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.
I won't even read it because I can't be bothered with such drivel. Has anyone here read it? If you have, do me a favour and post a review that blows its shit up so I don't have to.
I'd ask Rook to do it but I'm sure he has better things to do.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
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Tilberian, it's not just Simply Christianity that is creating a buzz (maybe in your area it is limited to that). But he has completed three volumes in a series that, among other things, seek to establish Judaism and the belief in bodily resurrection (that is, the belief espoused by Early Christianity and Pharisaical Judaism) as something unique in the age of antiquity. He attempts to demonstrate that the Hellenistic influences ascribed to early Christianity and late-antiquity (maybe just- "antiquity'?) Judaism are, in fact, false assumptions that do not correspond to the evidence from that time period.
Perhaps this is not anything useful for you; but I figured if you were not going to read any of Wright's works, this might give you an idea of what is occurring in this particular realm of academia.
P.S. Not a shot at Rook or anything, but keep an eye on some of his biblical interpretation. Some of its very good; some of it is quite debated assumption (for example: Paul and his theology of a spiritual resurrection; that the author of Mark was a Hellenized Jew in the Diaspora)
*title of the thread edited to reflect the actual book in which Wright discusses the bodily resurrection.*
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
I'll take your word for it, but the writers here (southern Ontario) have been claiming that Wright is presenting evidence that the physical resurrection actually happened. They seem to be making the leap to say that if belief in bodily resurrection was unique to the early Christians, that must mean it is connected to a historical incident. Is this Wright's assertion or just something they have read into it?
The whole question of whether bodily resurrection was a uniquely Christian idea induces jaw-cracking yawns in me. Certainly the idea of resurrection and life-after-death predates Christianity by millennia, so if the Jews came up with a little twist on it, I'm not impressed. If anything, bodily resurrection is a simpler idea, requiring less a less sophisticated imagination, than the various kinds of spiritual resurrection, including reincarnation.
Even if bodily resurrection had never been contemplated by earlier religions, so what? There is a first time for everything. The Death Star had never been contemplated before Star Wars: should this lead us to believe that George Lucas really got caught in a tractor beam?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Tilberian, I'd encourage you to check it out as its a much abbreviated overview of his three part trilogy that is thousands of pages long. I think you would glean a lot from it and see why many people find some of the critiques on this site woefully inadequate and lacking historical scholarly rigor. I think it at least could give you a picture of high level Christian scholarship so you can judge for yourself if there is anything to it. Just a suggestion. I am wanting to pick it up too pretty soon when I get some spare time.
I have read quite a bit of so-called "high level Christian scholarship" and found that most of it wouldn't pass the laugh test in any real school of history or archeology. Certainly much that I read here is better than anything "Christian scholarship" has produced. The name itself should be your tip-off: "Christian scholarship" proceeds in the first place from an unwarranted assumption that God exists and that some element of Christian doctrine is true. It is then tainted by the constant need to swerve away from findings that might challenge its basic presumptions. This is not science, nor even honest inquiry.
I did flip through the first few pages of SBH and found it immediately falling into the same old tired theist errors. Wright refers constantly to our "feeling" that this should be so or the world should be thus. He is basically stating his intention upfront: to justify that which he feels is true and wants to believe. I simply have no time for pretend scholars who decide on a conclusion before beginning their inquiry. Especially when those conclusions are based on feelings about morality and justice which are based, in turn, on millennia of religious cultural engineering! Talk about self-referential.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Isn't it convenient to simply disregard anyone who believes differently from you? I have to say I have much more respect for scholars who actually operate according to sound historical practices as opposed to the elevating of fringe scholars with little to contribute to the academic field. I think your response is telling of how your "feelings" in fact are what hinder you from self-examination. One should at least be able to articulate an opposing viewpoint before simply blowing it off. You haven't even read the book and you're already claiming victory. That might work on email threads but it reveals a closed mind to the pursuit of truth.
The idea that Mark was a hellenized Jew in the Diaspora is not debated by any scholars I know. Please name some, aside from the religious nuts who want Mark to be an eyewitness?
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Mr. Pot, did you hear what Mr. Kettle said about you?
He had the audacity to call you black.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Point to where I have done this. What I said in my post is that Christian scholars that I have read (ie I did regard them) have not been worth my time. So I have graced many, many people who I disagree with with my regard. I hope that you will forgive me for not wanting to waste my time any further.
I couldn't agree more. I think you will find that even most Christian scholars and theologians don't give any credence to the idea that Jesus rose from the dead as a historical fact.
Point to where I made one reference to my feelings. My desire to avoid wasting my time with Wright is based on my prior experience with writers of his ilk.
This only works when there has been a viewpoint articulated in the first place. In the case of Christian apologetics, the viewpoint is invariably inarticulate.
Point to where I claimed victory anywhere, over anything. If anything, I'm asking for someone else to fight the battle for me.
Your entire post amounts to a giant act of projection.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Hell, C.S. Lewis was trotting out the "People believed in it, so it must be tied to history" argument seventy five years ago. It was laughable then, and remains so today.
A woefully partial list of apologists I have thoroughly read:
C.S. Lewis
Lee Strobel
D. James Kennedy
Alvin Plantinga
William Lane Craig
J.P. Moreland
Alister McGrath
It has been my observation that unlike real scientific writing, the vast majority of apologist books can be boiled down to one or two primary arguments, which are always fallacious. The reason I stopped reading them is that I prefer to skim through just long enough to figure out which of the defeated arguments for god they're using.
I've always wondered, if these guys have such great arguments, why can't anyone articulate them adequately on this website? Theists are always telling us, "Just go read this book. I promise it will convince you." The thing is, if it convinced the theist, he must understand it. If he understands it, why not just tell us directly?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Could they just be cynically trying to drive sales of the book? Naw, that would be evil...
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
I'm sure that probably happens a lot. It's sort of like the books that teach you how to make a million dollars in five years while working at home.
P.S. (If you are reading this, and don't know the secret, it's really easy. Sit at home and write a book promising people that if they just pay $19.99 for your book and audio cd, that they'll be millionaires in five years. Wait for your million in your comfy chair.)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
If its only one or two, then what are they and why are they fallacious? honestly, the format of this site makes developing any argument more than a few paragraphs long painful. You get mired in conversations over word meanings and retarded nitpicking without ever really engaging the argument. That is why i'd rather have someone read them in their entirety and then respond with substance rather than the common the bible god is fiction etc. straw men that are purveyed as damning arguments on this site.