Hello from Italy!
Offline Hi guys,
I'm writing from the Cradle of Catholicism, from the Mother of All Lies 
. Rome, that is.
Here in Italy we are having some very aggressive debates on religious topic, these days. "Our" new Pope has old styled opinions on many topics, first of all on the relationship between Church and State. Sadly, almost all of our political parties are very submissive to him (Catholic voters could easily swing the balance of force in the Parliament)
Anyway, I discovered by devious means this forum; I am a member of a similar italian forum (www.uaar.it: Union of Rationalist Agnostics and Atheists).
Feel free to ask questions on Italy and Italian politics, I'll try to answer them as best as I can. I also have many questions to do. Italian newspapers are not terribly objective, so sometimes I feel my information on your religious attitudes is too much biased.
For now, I will continue to look around in the forum; it feels very different from the Italian one (may be Italian people is different?)
It's a pleasure to know we are many.
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Welcome to the hizzle.
Welcome to the forums!
You mention that the Italian site you frequent is different than this one...how so? I went to the site you listed above but I don't read/speak Italian
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
We have a very liberal policy; nobody is banned, and no post is ever deleted (almost). So, periodically we have catholic fundamentalists visiting us for admonishing us, converting us, insulting us. Fortunately, they are very few (atheism in Italy is not a "good" thing, so we have not a big footprint), and anyway they are very weak in defending their arguments (as often is the case when we repeat things said by others, without reasoning on them)
We have a strong minority of mathematicians and phisicists. But I'm new on this forum, and still have not visited your science section.
Obviously, we are more concerned with the policy of the Catholic Church than with theorical issues. Italian Church is strongly trying to influence our politics and our society, on many practical issues.
Sorry for my English, I know it could be better...
Welcome to the forums, Rispettoso!
Your English is fine. You write very well for a non native speaker.
People are rarely banned here. If a religious person wants to come in here and have an honest discussion then we would never delete their posts or ban them. And religious people often come here.
We really hate to delete anything and very, very rarely do it.
What part of Italy do you live in? I've been to several places in your country.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I'm posting from Toronto Canada, welcome to our North American version of common sense and logic. I used your link to UAAR. Sorry I have no talent in the Italian language. Could you translate for us your hottest current debates.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If you use firefox there is an add-on that you can download and use to translate internet pages. I use it to translate both Japaneze and other sites... but i can give you this... http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uaar.it%2Fnews%2F
its not great but it gets the job done
Welcome! It's always nice to gte viewpoints fronm other parts of the world. Incidentally, we seem to have recently a fundamentalist catholic(Hi Sierra!) so I'm sure you will find your knowledge to be useful, as wil the rest of us. Enjoy it!
BTW, your english is fine.Better than my Italian
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
What, you don't have pictures of Jesus Fucking Christ(literallly) on the Italian site? You Europeans are so strange!
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Welcome to the forums, Rispettoso!
I just got back from a holiday in Rome. I really enjoyed myself, there's certainly some impressive architecture and artwork there.
Last Sunday was one hell of a windy day though! My wife and I were walking past the circus maximus on our way to look at that pyramid when the wind picked up and blew a lamp post out of the concrete and on to the road, narrowly missing a car.
It would sure be ironic if that happened to the pope's golf cart...
Thanks to all for your welcome. During the weekend, "family rules!", so I'm off line.
But now, I'm back. Sorry for the delay.
I'll do some quick answers.
@watcher
I'm from Rome. Actually, I live in a small town near Rome. But I was borne in Rome, I still own a flat in Rome, and work in Rome. So, I can say I'm a roman.
But here: http://www.uaar.it/ateismo/vignette/
you could find some nice humourism, like this
or this
aren't they nice?
By the way, many years ago in Florence an Australian tourist died in this way. It had never happened before, neither has happened since then. It was a tragic accident, and it happened to a person that lived at the opposite side of the earth. Ah, the Will of God...
Don't be ridiculous - your English is wonderful. I have to practice my Italian, so I'll look for you on the site.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I'll say it for you: the Italian site is more stylish. Fewer images, cleaner lines, and instead of "Inbox (0)" or some such thing, it's "Non ci sono nuovi messaggi".
We are many. This site is also a lot harder on believers, and there are some very large brains on here. Check out nigelTheBold destroying Paisley, or magilum or deludedgod flicking away and sledgehammering (respectively) theocrats. It's great fun.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Well I live in Israel, so I guess this is sorta the "Father of all lies", welcome to the forums.
Hi there rispettoso from N.Ireland!
Wow. I went on uaar.it yesterday, and if you guys think the theists here are bad, you should check these nutbags out. They don't have moderate reasonable theists, either, and the theist's tone is WAY more condescending. They are, however, less aggressive and more ... no, condescending is still the best word. It's clear that in Italy, atheists are the underdogs even more than in North America (which I didn't know).
There's one, named ermenegildo, who's SO patronizing and pompous that it's hardly bearable for me to translate what he's saying (which isn't much) and another named Bartolome who seems to only post these dramatic prayers beseeching The Lord to exorcise the demons (and the devil) from the most reasonable sounding posters. In fact, it was funny reading the reasonable posts, thinking, "yeah, that's an interesting way to frame the cosmological argument" and knowing that because it was so reasonable, it would immediately be followed with "Lord, please help these poor, confused atheists!" and then about a page of religious gibberish.
But there's hope! Magilum has an Italian counterpart, called Cittadino, who's hilarious, and there are a few other members who actually have some clever philosophical angles. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have many scientists or scientific topics.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
i dont get it
o_O?
Also, sadly, Paisley has a counterpart in Italy named "poco". Same ridiculous stubborn refusal to address arguments, same insistence that athiesm is empty, therefore God exists.
This makes me wonder if there's a German site with exactly the same lame-ass arguments. Great way to learn foreign languages!
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
im going to volley a guess that im unique ^_^?
What Would Kharn Do?
Breaking news: Theists are annoying anywhere in the world. Guess stupidity knows no language barrier.
Also,how do you translate the site? Or do you do individual posts?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Theres standard internet usage word translators... Internet explorer tends to download them when you visit a registered foreign site... their not perfect, but they work, anything that doesnt translate well can just be shoved onto a translation macro-website ^_^
What Would Kharn Do?
That's pictures of loaves of bread, dude. Jesus fed the multitude with a little bread and a couple fish...he like...multiplied it and stuff.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
@HisWillness
If you'd like to see our Catholic fundamentalists in all their Glory, you could go on www.cattoliciromani.com.
They are a neverending source of hilarity for us (and there's also an English speaking section; catholic are always keen on ecumenism...). You can not read their opinions on sex, for example, without laughing out loud.
Regarding our forum, well, I'm reading now your science section and it's huge. I found many interesting posts on evolutionism, with fantastic links.
You have no idea.
I'm taking Italian in university, so it's like practice. Scientific terms are almost identical in Italian - I'm just having difficulty finding equivalents for things like "false dichotomy", which would be really handy since it seems to be the Catholic mainstay.
Example question from "poco": If everything in the world is physical, then how can there be freedom?
WTF?
Actually, maybe I should find out if there's an Italian equivalent to "WTF".
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
There is a devil's advocate-type character there, but without the performance-art-irony sadism angle. So yes.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Yet another country I will not move to for this very reason. I am sure Italy has wonderful well intended people who just want society to "get along", certainly we have those in both atheist and religious camps here in the states. It is not the intent, but the dangerous game of using law to play thought police that scares me.
It also shows the insecurity of their beliefs as well. If, as they say, their deity is all powerful then why would it need finite humans to say, "don't pick on my daddy". That would be like a midget standing in front of the Terminator shouting, "don't hit him, you might hurt him".
Humans certainly need to learn how to get along better, no doubt. And hating someone because of their origin, race or belief is absurd, no doubt. But we also need to face reality too. People are not always going to like you(or me) or always say nice things about you(or me), that is a fact of life. This utopian attitude that you can legislate thoughts is dangerous because it can set up a government bias that can end up squashing dissent.
What we can do without censorship or thought police is use our own voices without government force. The noble idea of ending bigotry should not come at the cost of protecting deities whose cheerleaders can end up being judges, police and juries. To know what a bad idea blasphemy laws are all one has to do is look to the Middle East run by governments bent on Allah being free from being offended.
If Italy has a growing trend of these types of laws, I would worry about any non-Catholic and non-Christian and what will happen to them if this trend grows in your country. Just as non-Sunnis in Saudi Arabia don't have a voice, just as non-Shiites in Iran don't have a voice.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
"That would be like a midget standing in front of the Terminator shouting, "don't hit him, you might hurt him"."
Hahaha! I love that mental image
Welcome to the forums Rispettoso. As you can see we have a diverse godless bunch here, I myself am Mexican. It's always glad to know everywhere in the world there's people willing to stand up to reason, even if this goes against tradition, sectarian majority and sometimes even against the law. And by the way, you don't have to worry about getting arrested for blaspheming here, in the RRS it's a-ok to do so. Try it sometimes, it's good for ya!
To Will: I think false dichotomy could be translated as "falsa dicotomia", but don't quote me on this, since it has been years since I last practiced my italian, so I'm more than rusty here.
Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.
Here's what I don't get. You can publish pictures of Hell, have pictures of Hell in public musuems, publish Dante's Inferno. Should someone with an atheist belief find this to be offensive and a threat of what will happen to the unbelievers. Since you can't offend with pictures of Jesus Fucking Christ, how come the Christians can make threats about what their god will do to atheists.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Unfortunately there is a strong minority (less than 30%, according to their financial support for the Church) of catholics that are ready and willing to do as the Church suggests. 30% is a lot of people, especially when we are near elections
.
Regarding our penal laws against blasphemy, you must undestand that we are a flexible and ingenious people. A judge can easily bend the laws, according to his whims. We have a say: "in Italy the law is enforced against our enemies, interpeted with our friends".
Blasphemy laws are weaker than 30 or 40 years ago, but are still there. They do not defend anymore the Catholic religion, but still protect the "religious feelings of the people".
So I could not bring in court a catholic, for him saying that atheists are "bent on evil deeds"; but he could do this to me, if I'd offend Jesus or the Virgin. If the judge happens to be a catholic, I could be easily judged guilty.
That is precisely what I am afraid of. Here in the states our Constitution protects offensive speech even that of blasphemy against a religion or deity.
What the well intended "politically correct" crowd fails to understand is that the people in power may not always agree with them. Being as such laws should not be written to give bias power, because you might not be the one with the power. Laws should be written on common law.
A am dead set against any law that says you can't make fun of gays or you can't condemn atheists, or you cant have Mary bleed out of her ass(SOUTH PARK episode|).
Why? Of course the things above are going to offend someone for some reason. But we also have to live with the understanding that humans will not always like their neighbor and wont always say nice things about them.
BUT, what is practical that humans can agree on is not physically harming someone or advocating the physical harm to someone. But you cannot use government to play morality police or thought police and you cant force your neighbor to like you. You can arrest anyone who physically harms someone else.
People cant be forced to like each other and since I value my right to criticize and even blaspheme ideas and claims I find to be absurd, I must allow my detractors that same ability. If I put the power of thought crime into the hands of lawmakers, I may be letting their bias rule me, and what if their bias does not agree with my position?
Anyone, majority or minority who puts that kind of power into the hands of lawmakers is playing with fire. Free speech is as only as strong as the willingness of society to protect dissent.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
@Brian
Your conclusions are very logical, and I can not disagree with them. Still, I feel the need to make a line in the sand, somewhere.
I could not condone racism of nazism, for example. You have fought against nazism, yet you allowed parties like this in your country. This seems strange for an european, but your previous post give a good rationale for this.
Perhaps we have suffered so much, in the past, due to internal strifes and civil hate, that we can not risk to possibility of it happening again.
Of course this has little in common with our blasphemy laws. But in Italy catholic religion is so interwined with culture, history, politics, society, that it makes sense. I'm trying to explain, not to justify. I'm obviously against them, and I will never vote a party defending the Church.