Free-Thinking............ Two Questions.......... [moved from FTA]

agustine
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Free-Thinking............ Two Questions.......... [moved from FTA]

A perusal of this site never ceases to engender a host of thoughts about - and please forgive me as I have assigned intentionality to my thoughts - the contemporary intellectual condition. However, what I have noticed is the often gratuitous use of the words "free-thinking". I wish to pose then the following question: How is it that one fancies himself a free-thinker? More specifically, what are the essential and/or accidental properties that distinguish a free-thinker from a thinker in bondage to one or more thoughts, the sum of which renders one entirely susceptible to the opprobrium of the contemporary intellectual elites. Thus, if I were to hold to a certain set of beliefs about the external world that conflicted with say that of the hard empiricist, for example the audacious notion that metaphysical pronouncements may in fact be meaningful, do such beliefs then negate in substance the propensity for "free-thought"? Your comments are most welcome............ Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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Simple: Free-thinking means

Simple: Free-thinking means one attempts to free one's self of the restrictions of any sort of dogma.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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agustine
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My Friend, How Are You........

How are you sir.......... I certainly hope that you are well. I am exceedingly interested in your thoughts regarding the question posed.

Thank you in advance...........

Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


agustine
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Thank you............

JillSwift wrote:

Simple: Free-thinking means one attempts to free one's self of the restrictions of any sort of dogma.

Interesting rejoinder........... However, it is precisely the question of the descriptive "dogmatic thinking" that arrests the attention of thinking individuals. On this point would you be so kind as to elaborate.......... Thank you Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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agustine wrote:Interesting

agustine wrote:
Interesting rejoinder........... However, it is precisely the question of the descriptive "dogmatic thinking" that arrests the attention of thinking individuals. On this point would you so kind as to elaborate.......... Thank you Augustine
Maybe it's just me, but you don't make any sense here.


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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FreethinkingPractically

Freethinking

Practically speaking this is virtually impossible, social conditioning, evolutionary conditioning and so on and so forth

But this is something one should strive towards is it not ?

 


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JillSwift wrote:agustine

JillSwift wrote:

agustine wrote:
Interesting rejoinder........... However, it is precisely the question of the descriptive "dogmatic thinking" that arrests the attention of thinking individuals. On this point would you so kind as to elaborate.......... Thank you Augustine
Maybe it's just me, but you don't make any sense here.

I could be mistaken, I think agustine is agreeing with you, and wishes for you to  elaborate


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Your Creed is a perfect example of dogmatic belief

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............(I hope my translation is close to correct).

"To believe when understanding and assurance when understanding(or to be assured in understanding)." This sounds like a rationalization to continue to believe in dogmatic beliefs that cannot be understood to be true outside of the irrational compartmentalization of "god delusions" in one part of your brain and the rest of reality in another(that which can be observed and verified, empirical).

Here is freethoughtpedia's defintion of a freethinker(although JillSwift already adequately answered this question in my opinion).

What Is A Freethinker?

free-think-er n. A person who forms opinions about religion (or virtually any topic) on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief. Freethinkers include atheists, agnostics and rationalists.

No one can be a freethinker who demands conformity to a bible, creed, or messiah. To the freethinker, revelation and faith are invalid, and orthodoxy is no guarantee of truth.

Here is the whole page if you want to know more

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Freethinker

 

I hope that helps. Side question: Is your writing style here your actual writing style, and do you use that same style for speech? Just interesting because it is very reminiscent of old English literary dudes and philosophers and I just found it out of the ordinary.

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Rev_Devilin wrote:I could be

Rev_Devilin wrote:
I could be mistaken, I think agustine is agreeing with you, and wishes for you to  elaborate
Could well be. I'm hung on his use of "arrested". I took it to mean "halted", as in some sort of obstacle to the attentions of thinking folks. Could also mean "captured". So I really don't know what to elaborate on.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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JillSwift wrote:Rev_Devilin

JillSwift wrote:

Rev_Devilin wrote:
I could be mistaken, I think agustine is agreeing with you, and wishes for you to  elaborate
Could well be. I'm hung on his use of "arrested". I took it to mean "halted", as in some sort of obstacle to the attentions of thinking folks. Could also mean "captured". So I really don't know what to elaborate on.

I think he's basically saying "Define 'dogmatic thinking.'"

Maybe I'm being overly paranoid here, but I have a feeling that this is a setup for an argument along the lines of: "When your thoughts or beliefs are limited what you can see or test, doesn't that make it 'dogmatic thinking?'"


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The difference between dogma

The difference between dogma and freethinking is the starting point.  Dogma assumes something to be true and then sets about to prove it.  Freethinking assumes no conclusions and only makes conditional statements based on available empirical evidence.

In practice, complete freethinking is impossible, for our brains must create shortcuts through many calculations.  If I had to perform rigorous empirical testing on every chair in which I wished to sit, I'd never be served lunch.

For practicality's sake, a good freethinker assumes a neutral position on anything that is not blatantly obvious.  In other words, if there's a question of whether something is true, a freethinker questions it.  Someone adhering to dogma will do the opposite.  Some things, he will say, are not to be questioned.  For religious thinkers, it's almost always the notion that some things can be learned outside of empirical reality. 


 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Quote:Maybe I'm being overly

Quote:
Maybe I'm being overly paranoid here, but I have a feeling that this is a setup for an argument along the lines of: "When your thoughts or beliefs are limited what you can see or test, doesn't that make it 'dogmatic thinking?'"

My experience tells me that's where it's going, but I'm open to other possibilities.

 

(That, by the way, was freethinking at work.)

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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My Apologies ...........

I do so apologize for any confusion I may have caused, and as such I suspect it is incumbent upon me as I have inaugurated the instant dialogue to clarify my views. Despite your intuitive apprehensions relative to what you appear to perceive as an epistemic trap, although its interesting to me that you recognize the problematic entailments resulting from the espousal of a hard empiricist epistemology, it is not my intention to follow such a digression unless of course I am inevitably led to a discussion of epistemology. Nevertheless, I am quite curious about the gratuitous use, within this site in particular, of the word "dogmatic". Does the fact that an individual holds to a certain set of beliefs and the relations that entail therefrom qualify a valid invocation of the pejorative use of the term "dogmatic". If it is not so by definition then it nevertheless appears to be the default position of, at least from my perspective, the intellectually exhausted.
In order to illustrate my point, take for example, and thus it is my intention only to provide an example, if only to preserve the economy of discourse, the philosophic paradigm of the mind. Accordingly, I hold to Thomistic Dualism thereby resulting in the view, amongst other particulars, the most prominent of which, is that knowledge of physical facts do not entail knowledge of phenomenal facts. Now, must I be branded a dogmatist and thus suffer without argumentation summary dismissal merely because I hold to a view of certain features of the external world, namely that with which I am most intimately acquainted, based upon what I believe to be good reasons. More so, if my example illustrates in substance the prevailing position, and I could be entirely wrong, this is in-part why I have posed the question, it seems to me indicative of the exceedingly poor state of the contemporary intellectual condition.

Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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Captured............. Well Said!

Elaboration is thus unnecessary............ Well said!

Augustine


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Augustine; Rejecting dogma

Augustine; Rejecting dogma (or trying to) does not equate to dismissing an idea simply because it is dogma. There is always the possibility that the idea(s) in the dogma will survive being questioned. Rejecting an idea out of hand is as silly as accepting an idea without question.

For instance, and to follow your example, I do not agree with the views expressed in Thomistic Dualism. That does not mean I wouldn't listen to your ideas about it, just that I'd question them.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Crede ut intelligas et fides

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas

Augustine of Hippo,

I believe so that I may understand, I think so that I may believe

Are you a Roman Catholic ?

 

Although I understand acting upon one's faith and belief is a necessary requirement, cannot knowledge only be gained by the rejection of old beliefs ? or are you a member of the flat earth society ?


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Yet Again I am In-Debted..............

I do so agree with the major premise of your argument. I trust that you would also grant that summary dismissal displaces any opportunity for rigorous debate on a given subject. However, your comment "There is always the possibility that the idea(s) in the dogma will survive being questioned." is of course most illuminating. I believe you have proverbially hit upon the very crux of the matter, at least from my perspective, which is the degree to which a given proposition is true, that is the degree to which it corresponds with reality.
Your views as always are most welcome......... Thank you again......

Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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Thank You Sir for Your Comments.........

At the outset, no I am not Roman Catholic, theologically I am a Calvinist. My ecclesiology though is less pronounced....... I would I suspect square with the Puritans on this particular issue. Interestingly, I would not assign the category Roman Catholic to Agustine of Hippo, that is, if you would allow me to qualify the foregoing. I think Agustine would, if I may borrow the phrase from Buckley, stand athwart the Roman Catholic advance yelling "STOP"! It was Agustine that prevailed against Pelagius, and yet the church has, at least since the advent of the Tridentine Council, reaffirmed it's condemnation of Pelaginism and at the same time affirmed a synergistic sotierology. Thus, in so doing the church has abjured its long-standing commitment to logic in direct contravention to the early fathers, the most prominent of which is Aurelius Agustine.
With respect to your question "or are you a member of the flat earth society ?" No sir.... At least not to my knowledge........
Because of time constraints I am unable to continue however I shall revisit the reminder of your post this evening.

Thank you yet again.........

Augsutine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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Free-thinking is somewhat subjective, in my opinion

agustine wrote:
I do so agree with the major premise of your argument. I trust that you would also grant that summary dismissal displaces any opportunity for rigorous debate on a given subject. However, your comment "There is always the possibility that the idea(s) in the dogma will survive being questioned." is of course most illuminating. I believe you have proverbially hit upon the very crux of the matter, at least from my perspective, which is the degree to which a given proposition is true, that is the degree to which it corresponds with reality. Your views as always are most welcome......... Thank you again...... Augustine

 

I believe that Free-thinking means different things to different people. For me, it means that you're free to question and think anything you want. That's all.

As far as I can remember, I have been questioning everything. I remember asking so many questions in cathecism that the teaching father would always sigh as soon as I'd raise my hands. However, I have also always questioned just about everything in science. How do we know the general age of the universe? How did we arrive at string theory? How is radiation measured? Et cetera.

So, I do believe that everyone is entitled to believe and think whatever they want. HOWEVER, I do believe that if you're going to affect humanity in a direct way (e.g. through laws, policies, censorship, etc) these beliefs must be based on something testable and demonstrable. This is, I think, where most Atheists on this site are. I think most of us don't care what anyone else believes as long as the advancement of human kind is not impaired and people are not affected by those untestable beliefs through laws or policies such as those forbidding same-sex marriage, abortion, etc.


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The Question of Rejection........

With respect to your question "cannot knowledge only be gained by the rejection of old beliefs..." I think on this point I might part company. If I understand you correctly, you are not exactly suggesting rejection, you are in point of fact proposing a revisiability criterion for the acquisition of knowledge wherein one or more beliefs a person holds must satisfy in order to be considered an item of knowledge. That is, all knowledge is subject to revision based upon recalcitrant experience. If I am correct, I would disagree. This point, although the offspring of a radical empiricist epistemology, has been raised and soundly rejected by a number of philosophers, more specifically those such as myself who hold to a moderate Platonic Rationalism. For example, and thus unconscionably brief, one criticism is that such a view would have to exclude, generally, all non-experiential knowledge of necessary propositions.

Thank you so much.........

Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............


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Re; The Question of Rejectionn......

agustine wrote:
With respect to your question "cannot knowledge only be gained by the rejection of old beliefs..." I think on this point I might part company. If I understand you correctly, you are not exactly suggesting rejection, you are in point of fact proposing a revisiability criterion for the acquisition of knowledge wherein one or more beliefs a person holds must satisfy in order to be considered an item of knowledge. That is, all knowledge is subject to revision based upon recalcitrant experience. If I am correct, I would disagree. This point, although the offspring of a radical empiricist epistemology, has been raised and soundly rejected by a number of philosophers, more specifically those such as myself who hold to a moderate Platonic Rationalism. For example, and thus unconscionably brief, one criticism is that such a view would have to exclude, generally, all non-experiential knowledge of necessary propositions. Thank you so much......... Augustine

I don't think knowledge is subject to revision based upon new "rebellious" experiences. Knowledge is subject however to verifiability, demonstrability, and new knowledge. A free-thinker must be willing to accept that his knowledge may not be fully correct based on new knowledge.

I think the problem is that whenever most atheists talk about knowledge, they're not talking about the same thing as philosophers. Most atheists are like me in that when we refer to knowledge, we mean to say practical knowledge. Practical knowledge is one that can be used to make demonstrable and verifiable predictions for practical uses universally, regardless of belief. For example, the knowledge of gravity has helped us create buildings, cranes, rockets, satellites, etc. One could say that knowledge of Yaweh has helped many people in the world to make practical decisions and predictions (not in the prophetic sense), however, the practical use of such knowledge is not demonstrable or universal unless you believe in Yaweh.

I'm sure you can gain all kinds of knowledge by searching introspectively, but that's not the knowledge we refer to here, usually.


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agustine wrote:I would not

agustine wrote:
I would not assign the category Roman Catholic to Agustine of Hippo, that is, if you would allow me to qualify the foregoing. I think Agustine would, if I may borrow the phrase from Buckley, stand athwart the Roman Catholic advance yelling "STOP"! It was Agustine that prevailed against Pelagius, and yet the church has, at least since the advent of the Tridentine Council, reaffirmed it's condemnation of Pelaginism and at the same time affirmed a synergistic sotierology. Thus, in so doing the church has abjured its long-standing commitment to logic in direct contravention to the early fathers, the most prominent of which is Aurelius Agustine.

You seem to deeply misunderstand the Fathers, or else we define our words differently. Pelagius was not condemned for teaching synergism; he taught that, as a consequence of free will, man should be able to do whatever he chooses with impunity. This is what was condemned; the historic Christian Church has always affirmed that, while our choice is free, there are bad choices for which there are divine consequences. It is God's grace that gives us strength to choose rightly, and through cooperation with that grace (the cooperation itself being a result of grace) we are saved. This is what all the Fathers taught, including Augustine.

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A Claraification............

       With respect to your comment "You seem to deeply misunderstand the Fathers, or else we define our words differently." Please allow me to clarify my views. One, I believe my understanding of the church fathers is in point of fact correct. Two, my criticism, simply put, is that synergism is indeed, and thus most "undeniably, Semi-Pelagianism. The underlying synergistic thesis was rejected by the fathers, to wit: Cannons of the Council of Orange, for your viewing convenience see http://www.creeds.net/ancient/orange.htm. With respect to your comment "This is what was condemned; the historic Christian Church has always affirmed that, while our choice is free, there are bad choices for which there are divine consequences. It is God's grace that gives us strength to choose rightly, and through cooperation with that grace (the cooperation itself being a result of grace) we are saved." I think you are correct in that your comments reflect the contemporary views of the Magisterium. However, the church has not always espoused that view, deferring to the Cannons of the Council of Orange,

"CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3)."

     The quote "no one can" of course makes an express reference to the inability of man, whether by a unilateral effort, Pelagianism, or through a cooperative effort, synergism, to incline his volitional faculties in the direction of God. The foregoing reflects both the early fathers view along with, most importantly, the biblical view, that is of monergism, or as the reformers described, the inner-working and efficaciousness of sovereign grace by the Holy Spirit. As Christ said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you.........." John 15:16 Augustine

Crede ut intelligas et fides ut intelligas.............