Evolution of religious bigotry

Fire
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Evolution of religious bigotry

Quote:
Jonah Goldberg:

Evolution of religious bigotry

The cowardice and intolerance of slapping a Darwin fish on your car bumper. April 1, 2008
I just watched "Fitna," a 17-minute film by Geert Wilders, head of the Dutch Freedom Party, which takes a hard-line stance against Muslim immigration.

Released on the Internet on Thursday, "Fitna" juxtaposes verses from the Koran with images and speeches from the world of jihad. Heads cut off, bodies blown apart, gays executed, toddlers taught to denounce Jews as "apes and pigs," imams calling for global domination, protesters holding up signs reading "God Bless Hitler" and "Freedom go to Hell" -- these are just some of the powerful images from "Fitna," an Arabic word that means "ordeal."

Predictably, various Muslim governments have condemned the film. Half the Jordanian parliament voted to sever ties with the Netherlands. Egypt's grand imam threatened "severe" consequences if the Dutch government didn't ban the film.

Meanwhile, European and U.N. leaders are going through the usual motions of theatrical hand-wringing, heaping all of their anger on Wilders for sowing "hatred."

Me? I keep thinking about Jesus fish.

During a 1991 visit to Istanbul, a buddy and I found ourselves in a small restaurant drinking, dancing and singing with a bunch of middle-class Turkish businessmen, mostly shop owners. It was a hilariously joyful evening, even though they spoke nearly no English and we spoke considerably less Turkish.

At the end of the night, after imbibing unquantifiable quantities of raki, an ouzo-like Turkish liquor, one of the men came up to me and gave me a worn-out business card. On the back, he'd scribbled an image. It was little more than a curlicue, but he seemed intent on showing it to me (and nobody else). It was, I realized, a Jesus fish.

It was an eye-opening moment for me, though obviously trivial compared with the experiences of others. Here in this cosmopolitan and self-styled European city, this fellow felt the need to surreptitiously clue me in that he was a Christian just like me (or so he thought).

Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXOYE, which not only means fish but serves as an acronym, in Greek, for "Jesus Christ the Son of God [Is] Savior." Christians persecuted by the Romans used to draw the Jesus fish in the dirt with a stick or a finger as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren't alone.

In America, the easiest place to find this ancient symbol is on the back of cars. Recently, however, it seems as if Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish. No doubt you've seen these too. The fish symbol is "updated" with little feet coming off the bottom, and "IXOYE" or "Jesus" is replaced with either "Darwin" or "Evolve."

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. "Namely: It's acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."

But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.

Whatever the faults of "Fitna," it ain't no Darwin fish.

Geert Wilders' film could very, very easily get him killed. (He's already guarded around the clock.) It essentially picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam.

"Fitna" is certainly provocative, yet it has good reason to provoke. A cancer of violence, bigotry and cruelty is metastasizing within the Islamic world.

It's fine for Muslim moderates to say they aren't part of the cancer; and that some have, in response to the film, is a positive sign. But more often, diagnosing or even observing this cancer -- in film, book or cartoon -- is dubbed "intolerant" while calls for violence, censorship and even murder are treated as understandable, if regrettable, expressions of well-deserved anger.

It's not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics, but they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who are neither fanatical nor inclined to use violence.

The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it.

[email protected]

 

There are lots of things I don't like about the article. For one, Christians are not a minority in the United States. It is absurd to compare anti-semitism, or islamophobia to being "anti-christian" in the first place. Majority rights need little protection. Second of all is the premise that the Darwin fish symbolizes smugness or that christians are less evolved. How is the Jesus fish itself not being smug if that is the case? How many times have you heard theists identify themselves as "the elect" or "the saved" or walk around with symbols of their religion made in gold hung prominently around their necks. The Darwin fish is a common symbol of atheism, of the triumph of the fish rising out of the waters, is much like the triumph of ourselves rising out of superstition it is no more smug than the symbolism of water washing the sins off of a baby or the whole story about how christians are all going to heaven and all of us are going to hell.

The Darwin fish is as much an assertion of our identity as much as the Jesus fish is. Jesus made it possible to be a christian, if you believe the mythology, Darwin, while not the founder of atheism, made it much easier to be an atheist.

 


HeyZeusCreaseToe
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I AM GOD AS YOU
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  Yeah God of abe must be

  Yeah God of abe must be killed , and the Xain jesus too ,  but hey my atheist Jesus is way fucking cool !  He and Buddha are ONE !  Me too , as ALL is ONE !  ummm,  ask a scientist !        Better yet      Ask yourself !  


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Quote:The Darwin fish

Quote:
The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it.

 

Wow. You're fucked-up.

In what way is a scientific approach to the world (otherwise known as a 'rational' approach) not completely superior to a religious one (or 'irrational' approach)? You're spouting more apologetic garbage (Darwin Fish are offensive because they mock the Jesus Fish? Dude - that's kind of the whole point) and offering both outright lies (Darwin fish outnumber Jesus fish? Gotta call bullshit on that one) and falsely accusing people of cowardice (Darwin fish might not get your head cut off in the States, but you bet your ass it'll get you ostracized like no tomorrow in and around the Bible belt. No, that's not on the same tier as decapitation, but it's hardly going to be a care-free joyride either).

And it would only be 'smug' if we were insulting someone just to make ourselves look better, rather than trying to wake people up to the absurdity that is Christianity.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


dead_again
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Kevin R Brown wrote:Wow.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Wow. You're fucked-up.

Methinks that wasn't Fire's article. He simply reposted it.

Your god's silence speaks loud and clear


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He also commented on it at

He also commented on it at the end. He doesn't agree with it.


V1per41
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I love how the author thinks

I love how the author thinks that the fish is "as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren't alone."  Yet a darwin fish can't mean the exact same thing?  The reason I have a Darwin fish on my car is to show that I accept the theory of evolution and strongly oppose creationism in it's many forms, and that others who think like me are not alone.

He then also accuses Darwin fishes of meaning: "Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers."  Like the jesus fish people don't think the exact same thing when they put the fish on their car.

This guy has quite the double standard.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan


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WTF?! He started so well as

WTF?! He started so well as well!!
I'd write some more but I'd just be trying to reword what V1per41 just said.
Double standard is definately the key word here!

 


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dead_again wrote:Kevin R

dead_again wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Wow. You're fucked-up.

Methinks that wasn't Fire's article. He simply reposted it.

I know. I was referring to the article's author.

...Though, rereading my post, I know realize I didn't sound like it. Fuck me.

Fire, FYI, my comments weren't directed at you. Feel free to give me a whack anyway if you felt insulted.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Such a pity...

... that Wilders is a total idiot, and définitely a religious nutcase himself, even though he refuses to discuss his own religion (but then he refuses to discuss, period. Which is not strange since all he can do is scream, shout, whine and pout, and any serious opponent will wipe the floor with him in a debate)

Fitna is very, very mediocre as youtube films go, and it does not say anything that has not been said oomphteen times before. I mean, if you have a strong message and some people happen to be offended by it, well, fuck those people. But if somebody (in this case, Wilders) re-re-rehash old arguments for the sole purpose of pissing people off, I will question his motives. And Wilders (who poses as something like an "ultra-conservative humanist" but really is an right-wing extremist) has some very, very, very questionable motives I assure you.

And, by the way, I do not feel any pity whatsoever for his constantly being guarded: he LOVES having bodyguards around him, he purrs when he gets a threatening note or email, and, oh, all that wonderful, wonderful attention!

Fortunately, more and more Dutchies are seeing him for what he is (and among his supporters more people drift to the current hot "moderate" alternative: mrs Verdonk, a former minister who during her term in office was responsible for a number of refugees being killed in a fire in an inadequate prison, and who now, with her newly-founded party "Proud of the Netherlands" advocates stopping immigration and introduction of Capital Punishment for rapists. Oh yes, how proudly we will slip back into the Middle Ages.)


HisWillness
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 What's funny about the

 What's funny about the article is that the Darwin version now has what the Christian version has lost, that being a minority symbol. Why is it always necessary for Christians to be the victim in everything? Is it an identity issue?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote: What's

HisWillness wrote:

 What's funny about the article is that the Darwin version now has what the Christian version has lost, that being a minority symbol. Why is it always necessary for Christians to be the victim in everything? Is it an identity issue?

 

Yes, Christians have a positive FETISH for being persecuted (As long as it's not REAL persecution).

Being open-minded isn't the same thing as being vacant.


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HisWillness wrote: What's

HisWillness wrote:

 What's funny about the article is that the Darwin version now has what the Christian version has lost, that being a minority symbol. Why is it always necessary for Christians to be the victim in everything? Is it an identity issue?

Yip. Here's another thread by Fire discussing that http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13417

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Of course we need to bring

Of course we need to bring these up: