The Worst Arguments Ever Encountered
The propagandistic nature of many of the absurd claims we encounter here, and elsewhere, by many amusingly zealous, albeit wholly ignorant, fundamentalists, need to be addressed. And so they shall
“Atheists hate God”
I am utterly astonished by the number of faux “Christian charity” letters I read which recycle the same breathtaking stupidity, such as “Jesus loves you”, “I love you” etc. But what amuses me most is that such a tone is a virtual guarantor of the employment of an equally stupid and mendacious assertion. How many times have I, or you, or any of us seen such writing start off with “I know you hate God”. Even more troubling is how they start with this as axiomatic, “I know”. Surely anyone can see what an absurd proposition this is, it shoots itself in the foot. The problem at hand is the axiomatic belief held by many that you have to believe in God, and hence the idea that someone actually does not and hence it would be a logical absurdity to state that such a person “hates” such a being.
“Atheists know God exists but deny him for whatever reason”
A claim which is more or less identical to the one above. Yet it is equally absurd. Again, it requires your interlocutor to start with their unshakeable, indubitable, axiomatic belief that everyone must believe in God. Otherwise, they would be shooting themselves in the foot by making this assertion. I, for one, most certainly do not “know God exists”, but I do deny him- precisely because I don’t believe in God. The problem at hand is that such people who make these assertions are simply suffering from a failure to abandon rather slipshod pre-conceived notions which can only be described as pure, distilled stupidity. It is little more than a mark of having never been exposed to different ideas, and the claim is absurd and propagandistic. If such claims as the two I just brought up are uttered, it is merely because of the utter failure of your interlocutor to imagine that there are people in the world who do not hold what they do (imagine that), hence, they must start, not from a ground-up construction of beliefs about the world, but from unshakeable axioms (when I say “axiom” here I mean something different than “axiom” in formal logic, which refers to statements which actually are indubitable and are defended via retortion such as the axiom of identity, the axiom of regularity and the axiom of sentience).
Moving on.
“Atheism is associated with hedonism, atheists are selfish, etc, and because atheists do not believe in God, they act in such a manner”. Also concomitant is that atheists do not “believe in hope, love, peace” etc. ad infinitum
While there are some who many act in such a manner (religion or lack thereof is hardly going to be a prophylactic on things which are utterly innate to the human condition such as selfishness), anyone who is familiar with the history of atheism, and its roots in Enlightenment, and the philosophical movements that sprang forth, know this is absurd. The existentialist Jean-Paul Sarte argued that man needed to reject God because the belief in such a being would restrict our the freedom of man and his ability to make choices in the world (Essays in Existentialism). The logical positivist AJ Ayer wrote that God is given as “universal blanket answer” to all of man’s questions (The Problem of Knowledge) and, as a concomitant, Maurice Ponty pointed out that because of this, the belief in such a being negates the human sense of wonder and is prophylactic to asking questions about how reality works. Albert Camus and Freidrich Nietzsche both argued for a movement of “heroic atheism” against the oppressive banality of religion. In The Stranger, this was a central theme to the novel itself, as Meursault was put on trial for not conforming to societal norms. The Christian magistrate in The Outsider was hence portrayed as a bigot who refused to believe anyone could believe someone different than he did (Camus, 1942). Sigmund Freud argued that shedding of religion was essentially a step in the “maturation of humanity”. Whilst its ethical injunctions may have previously been useful, in a world whose nature was being unfolded, man needed to cast it off as a yolk. It may be the only thing that he and I agree on. Nietzsche*too, in Thus Spake Zarathustra, had the allegory of the madman running through the streets, demanding to know where God has gone, and argued that man would eventually transcend his need to believe in God. Indeed, many of the atheists and deists of the Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment era placed their emphasis on man and hence humanism, and liberty against the oppressive institutions of God-belief, and argued the very opposite of the statements I am addressing that I put above. Namely, that man must abandon God-belief so he could focus his love and his energy towards his fellow man.
*To be fair, however, Nietzsche was so narcissistic that there were two chapters in his autobiography entitled “Why I am so Clever” and “Why I write such good books”.
“Atheists believe in nothing”
From what does this bizarre claim come from? Again, it starts with a presupposed axiom that is found in the minds of many believers. The idea that someone doesn’t believe in God is difficult for them to imagine. In Maslowian Hierarchies, Maslow stated that “transcendent beliefs” of cosmic significance were an innate need and belief of humanity, and that anyone who claimed not to have this need, which Sartre called the God-shaped hole, was lying to others and himself. It isn’t even Maslow that I wish to attack, but the idea that to believe anything at all, one must believe in God, or t hey believe in nothing, ie, that such people are nihilists. As I said before, many believers do treat “God exists” and, perhaps, a cynic would say “It is necessary to believe God exists” as if such propositions were axioms. As long as such a mindset exists, sane discourse becomes rather difficult.
So, let us take this claim apart. The sentence “God exists” is merely one of an infinite number of propositions about the world which may or may not be true. Again, it starts with an axiomatic proposition which many simply cannot shed. Since theism embraces the notion that such a being, the “God” entity in question, is the all-encompassing sustaining entity without which nothing would be possible. I suppose if I actually believed that then I could swallow the idea that you must believe in God or nothing at all. But I don’t, and those who do treat it as if it were an axiomatic claim. That’s the point. The claim can be immediately smashed by pointing out that there are still infinitely many true propositions one can utter regardless of God’s existence, such as the statement “this banana is yellow”. This constitutes a “belief” about the world, whether true or not. The claim “you believe in God, or in nothing” is so absurd it does not require vast intellectual capacity to take it apart. “God exists” is not the only possible belief about anything that can be held, and if your interlocutor holds the belief that it is a necessary axiom without which you cannot believe anything else, then they must shed that axiom, because their opposite number might not believe that. I don’t, because that belief is absurd.
“Atheists deny innate value of humanity, and that man is merely a clever animal”
A curious claim, first made, I believe, by the German theologian Rahner. It’s not an actually meaningful claim, since “animals” encompass a taxonomical group, a kingdom which humans belong to by definition, since they have a nervous system and a blood supply. Yet the term “animal” seems to be derogatory, you can imagine the profound irritation I haveover such “speciesist” chauvinism. I try to remind people that the notion of “species” is an arbitrary taxonomical classification based on the ability for two gametes of two organisms to form a zygote together, and that biology is better imagined as a continuum of different morphologies and phenotypes, than a strict and rigid set of “kinds”. Even with God belief, it would be necessary to accept precisely that claim, man is a clever animal, because evolutionary biology specifically overturned religious and eschatological notions about human nature. Hitherto, it was held across the whole Western world the notion of a “Great chain of being”, an implicit teleology, with God at the apex (The Christian God, naturally). Rene Descartes believed that man had an immaterial soul which separated him from other animals. The idea of man as innately superior is understandable from an intuitive standpoint. Perhaps one of the reasons for hostility against evolution is that it destroys the delusion that man sits atop a natural apex, or is “separate” from the other animals. In Christian doctrine, this has been promulgated first with the Adam and Eve story as the notion of “stewardship”. In one crushing blow, all of these notions were destroyed simultaneously, and this would still hold whether God existed or did not.
“Atheists engage in self-worship, or man-worship, etc”
Again, the claim presumes that without worshipping God, presumably we would worship something, perhaps ourselves (this is called autodeification). Again, this claim starts from the axiom that man needs to worship something. As previously mentioned, anyone with a basic familiarity of the atheist philosophers, and how they have influenced many modern atheists. Another false dichotomy is the culprit here, for the axiom being held is that worship is a necessary human endeavour. It is not.
I’m now going to discuss several of these beliefs, their antecedents, cultural, social and political factors associated. The first thing we can see is that many of them simply stem from a set of unshakeable beliefs treated as axiomatic, yet with no grounds. If I treated the statement “everyone must believe in God” as an axiomatic one, then it would be inconceivable to me that such another person could hold a belief in negation to that, and so, I would revert to an escape of cognitive dissonance by assuming that the person actually “hates” God. Yet the statement I brought up as an example is not axiomatic. It is as far from axiomatic as it is possible to be far from axiomatic. It is absurd.
Many of these same people, in addition to holding aforementioned axiomatic beliefs, would then perhaps find it difficult not merely to believe that there are those who don’t hold to what they believe, but even those who have a wholly different conception of what God is. For numerous philosophers who were not atheists, God had the characteristic called apathiea. Their God was the deistic one, and they were, in their own time, likely to be demonized as “atheists”.
In the United States, these unpleasant notions converge with McCarthyism. All of us, those who subscribe, and those who do not, are familiar with the modern American “political religion”, with its roots in the Age of Affluence. Emphasis on strong nationalism, American exceptionalism, and the whole notion of “All-Americanism”, is concomitant with a deep religious tradition and a reaction to the Communist era. The most flagrant example of this which still exists today is the BSA, whose members have to be heterosexuals who believe in God. Evidently the demonized notion of “Godless communists” still persists. At least, the “Godless” part still does. The American political religion has a curious tendency to make very strange juxtapositions of beliefs, to the extent that in the concomitant theology, today, many Americans are unembarrassed to say, openly, that they believe that the Creator of the Universe is concerned about which nation wins a war, or gives them personally good luck and blessing, or, even more pathetically, when sports stars believe they are guided by God’s hand. A concomitant to this social climate is the bizarre political theology which, as previously mentioned, has roots in McCarthyism. Hence, when someone says they believe in God, for many, (and we return to the problem of axioms) it is automatically assumed that they believe in the bizarre effigy that constitutes a central piece in the American political religion. Yet the philosophical deists, to take an example, with their Dei apathiea, would find more in common with the atheists, Spinoza, Nietzsche, Ayer, Sartre, Camus, and Hume . Creationism, too, has its roots in this twisted political theology. They spend half their time arguing that if taught evolution, children will become drug-addicted sexual deviants and that to believe in evolution, you must be an atheist. The BSA’s holding that a necessary condition for being an ethically responsible citizen is God-belief seems utter absurdity in light of that I took that belief to pieces in the link I have provided below, demonstrating that it is absurd to derive such beliefs from God-belief.
Yet in the aforementioned American political religion, as famously epitomized by George Bush Senior, it is presumed that the word “God” might refer axiomatically only to the God that the American political religion subscribes to. And if I did believe in God, and I don’t, I would still declare that this God, concomitant with the political religion started by McCarthyism, is an utterly ridiculous God. The sort of God, the creator of the universe, who cares what people do while naked, or whether you win a football game, or which country is better. Against such a backdrop of sheer lunacy, if I were a deist, I’d move in with the atheists. Indeed, one of the reasons that atheism has been so successful is because atheist philosophers have all but destroyed the aforementioned notion of God. For that, I suppose, I must thank the rise of authoritarianism in monotheism for cementing the belief that “God” means precisely the sort of God many Americans and others believe in today, to put it bluntly: The sort of God who cares about the gender of the person you are fucking.
False dichotomies abound here, of course. As previously mentioned, it is taken as axiomatic that the utterance “I believe in God” should somehow imply that you believe in this quasi-religious American political religion, with all the notions they have been free to hang and anchor to an exceptionally bizarre Protestant theology. Unfortunately, for many people, it does. Yet, I already established the absurdity of this dichotomy here:
Confusion Regarding What it Means to Be an Atheist
What I also established in that link is that the dichotomy is indicative not so much of a stance but of a word, and that word is “atheist”. Since the argument I put together is in the link, I won’t waste time going over it here.
Ultimately, the simplest rectification of the problem at hand is simply to shed unwarranted axioms. I stress all the time, to everyone I meet, that they must build their worldview from the ground up, the way Descartes did, or Hume. Start with no assumptions, certainly not those which pertain to the political preferences of the creator of the universe, lest you find yourself trapped believing utter absurdity.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Worst argument?
"God must exist,or you wouldn't be able to talk about him."
So Darth Vader's real too?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
That's quite an amazingly stupid arguement - that the mere discussion of something constitutes acceptance of its existence, even if the topic of the discussion is whether or not the subject exists.
And yet, the same people who think that talking about God = believing in the existence of God would at best laugh at you if you replace "God" with "Allah," "Zeus," "Thor," "the Flying Spaghetti Monster," etc.
Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.
Ah, yes. This argument offers two propositions: all concepts must be physical objects, or god is just a concept like any other.
EDIT: The theist then relies on implicit special pleading by simply not applying the same principle to other concepts. But, if we interrogate their logic further, we find god must first be a concept. Is it even that? It is, in its more exciting interpretations, an unsubstantiated deliberate agent, manifesting willy-nilly, doing what it pleases. In more philosophically-conceited circles, it's an empty wrapper encompassing substantiated things, while adding nothing to them. So what is it they're getting at, really?
AWE LA , ohhh the awe ! Allah Allah
G AWE D Worship the awe, but how !?!
"Against such a backdrop of sheer lunacy, "
>>> <<< .... Thanks DG, that was a fun read , with not one ray of doubt .....
Atheism Books.
So, is anyone interessted in the piece itself?
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
The impossibility of actual infinity arguement. This is sometimes articulated as the more entertaining, "If i promise to give you a chocolate bar after an infinite amount of time would you ever get the chocolate bar?"
The Ressurection is a Justified Basic belief.
Boris Becker struggled to not commit suicide after winning a Grand Slam, therefore, purely human pursuits are empty, thus God is needed for meaning (Thank Ravi Zacharais for this one).
Asking "who created God?' is a fallacy becuase, obviously, God is eternal, therefore always existed. This is also articulated as "You are confusing the idea of a 'creator' with myths and fables".
At least I know where I am going when I die.
I am narrowminded in the truth and you are open-minded in falsity.
To a Christian, being Moral in human standards is meaningless since a Christian lives by God's standards.
God can love what does not exist yet, therefore, it makes perfect sense for an all-perfect being to make create something.
Moses can kill 3000 people becuase God was only against murder not capital punishment, furthermore, those only applied to the Jews and after Jesus changed the laws there was no need for that ancient law code.
Evil is simply lacking God similar to how cold is lacking heat.
The idea of God is so unimaginable and unconcievable by a finite human mind that such an idea must have been put in the human mind by the higher power himself.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
I suppose.
An atheist made a spelling error, therefore God exists.
Theists are in a privileged position in that they are not theists to themselves. Their eyes are 'watching god', and so atheism is shallow because it is against theism which is a broad category and not against, for example, Christians : real theists. Although Christians are in the theist family much like humans are a part of the animal kingdom, this (and these) distinction is near negligible; they have an agenda which is being righteous in a world where sin is imminent. Hence any opposition to a Christian by an atheist is necessarily a confusing one for that Christian. Perhaps this is why a Christian might say that 'atheists hate God'.. there is really no category for an atheist because the Christian does not consider himself under any family of theists. Just a thought.
If myopia is privileged.
It's not against anything, and it's not shallow: it is devoid of content. But this isn't a bad thing anymore than Christianity is bad because its myths don't include the Marvel Comics universe in the pantheon. Meaning, morality, etc., are, for the atheist, explained elsewhere, and don't need a metaphoric pseudo-parent to provide them.
LOL. I can't imagine what that statement is for.
The distinction isn't negligible at all. There are radically different views across theistic religions. You're begging the question regarding sin. If Christian actions can only be justified by the existence of sin, their views must be valid for sin to exist.
Yes, insulation, xenophobia and myopia are potent.
I AM ATHEIST < I AM GOD , I no like religion, god of abe is the devil in us .... kill the dogs of dogma ....
Atheism Books.
I think you've picked my favourites, too.
Even as an antitheist, I don't hate something I don't believe is there. I'm not sure how a mind could bend itself into such a thought-pretzel. As for "Christian charity" openings to correspondence, it's pretty much the same thing as someone saying, "no offense, but ..." or "I love the guy, I really do, but ..."
You're right - it's much the same as the first one. Only with added stupid. Additional stupid at no extra cost, mind you, so it's a fantastic deal.
This one may be my favourite. As you say, Freud is right to associate the abandonment of religion with maturity. Now that I don't believe in Santa, I don't get any presents from Santa. That much is true. However, I tend to appreciate the people who do that kind of thing more now that I'm all grown up.
And now that I'm an adult, I'm basically going to fuck all day and all night. C'mon. All I have to say to that is "Catholic girls". QED.
More empty demonizing for what seems to be no reason. I think it's an insult from faith-ist camps to say that someone doesn't blindly follow orders. I don't know. The people who say shit like this actually confuse me. It's too bad they make up 2/3rds of the population (estimate from the Milgram experiment).
I think you're being disingenuous here (and I'm the king of disingenuous, so I should know). You know what they're saying. Man is special, and came from a magic fairlyland castle in the sky where a regal god-thing bestowed upon him the keys to the earth. Animals are either slaves, food, or they don't matter. So we couldn't possibly be animals ... except when we're slaves, I guess ...
The only thing amazing here to me is that people can honestly look at the rest of the animal kingdom and think, "yeah, I'm nothing like that." I think the people who really get upset at the idea that they're animals are the ones just dumb enough for it to hit close to home. Y'know, guys who actually might not be able to out-think a chimpanzee, and the thought of that is an affront to their ego. Just a guess.
Unfortunate, but true. Also way too difficult for the average jackass. I think that's why we se this calibre of argument. They're just re-statements of "everyone in my family believes this crap, so it must be true, since I stand up for my family." To them, that's not circular. It would be comforting to think that there was some sort of alien retard-o-beam stopping people's thoughts from gaining the kind of momentum that would bring them to a coherent conclusion. Then at least it wouldn't be their fault. Unfortunately, that's about as likely as the existence of a deity.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I think its less a matter of everyone else believing in it and more the idea of such an entity, despite many Christian claims otherwise, is easier to grasp than there being no such entity. The reason why I say this is because the most intellectual and "secular" arguments for God all rely on intelligence, mind, and how this intelligence or mind is evidenced in the natural world. Furthermore, many apologetics even add on to this claim or as icing to the God-cake that "I cannot possibly imagine a world in which such an entity is not present and neither can you". It is no accident that many arguments for God rely on the "impossibility" of being able to explain things without God. The other aspect about such entity that is easy to grasp is the idea of "force" namely force of the moral law or force of morality. If Plato showed us anything, it is that its very difficult to argue for justice, namely being just, if there is no entity forcing you to be just or promising you luxurious rewards for being just (or to be just if it gets you no more rewards than one who is being unjust). Which is why, even if one is able to develop their own secular code of morality, the challenge, as they see it, is "Why should others follow it?", which, again, is a challenge many apologetics rely on in arguing for both god and morality. What is interesting about this move, to me at least, is that they are clearly bypassing God's supposed wisdom and loving nature, and simply point out that you will have your ass handed to you if you do not abide by the Moral Law. Regardless of that little mishap however, or probably because of that mishap, now it makes even more sense to accept God's existence as "self-evident" since not only does he account for why everything is here, but also why we should be good or just. I am sure having your family believe in it helps but, you ultimately have to understand the simple "logic" behind the belief in order to believe in it on your own terms. What also helps is that bad logic is easier to grasp than good logic and, as I pointed out, arguments for God rely on one bad use of logic on another.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
I don't think that it's logical or easier to believe that there is some entity. It may be easier to believe if that's what you've grown up believing. The only reason people say they cannot imagine a universe without God is simply because of education and culture. Belief in God is definitely not innate.
I'm not saying it's innate nor that its more logical. I am saying that the oversimplified logic "Something must have created the universe, therefore god did" is easier to grasp then "It is not necessary for their to have been a creator entity since it is very possible for this universe to have always existed". It is easier, not necessarily more accurate, to make sense of the world if some super-entity made it for a purpose then to make sense of a world that wasn't. Which is why many also claim "I refuse to believe that there can be a world without God." Which isn;t really an arguement, rather, a clear lack of imagination. The point is however, this shows that the "logic" used for God is ultimatly based in this need for the world to make sense in a clear and understandable way. If the history of religion has taught us anything, it's that the natural "logic" the human mind has is to assume that the natural elements are being controlled by entities like us becuase, if they are, we can understand them and then control them or at least manipulate them to our needs. Once you strip away the notion that the natural elements are in control of such entities, you are then quickly humblerd since you realize ntohing you do will alter them and they will do whatever they want regardless of what you believe or feel about it. The only exception to not being able to control it is pollution but that happened totally by accident and we were arrogant enough to beleive it would never have an effect. How wrong we were and still are and now the earth is simply on an altered course of drastic change.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
I AM one with the infinite eternal ( G awe D , Awe la ), If I AM wrong it is god of abe's fault. Either way I AM off the hook for not knowing and therefore any judgment ..... Pascal Wagner inverted !
Atheism Books.
You mean like Hitchens's "a junk explanation is better than no explanation to the believer"? I tend to agree that people really want to believe.
Big "if". Huge, actually. The Plato dialogues don't really hold water. They're fine as an intro, but so weighed down with absolutes that they become irrelevant quickly.
They're also reinforcing the notion that we're helpless without some kind of invisible guidance. We can't make decisions, live our lives, or breathe without God. Oh wait - of course we can. Were we brushing our teeth with fluoride in the middle ages? No! We were still trying to make gold out of lead. Where was God to tell us that fluoride stopped tooth decay? Or that disease was actually another set of "God's creatures"? The implication isn't just that we'll be punished, but that we're totally out-of-control without supernatural supervision. (As if WITH supernatural guidance we're doing so great.)
You don't really have to understand logic to accept the invisible dad. You can use cognitive dissonance, which is how everyone arrives at religious belief.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence