making children say the pledge?
Posted on: April 21, 2008 - 9:06am
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making children say the pledge?
Ok, regardless of the "under god" crap, what do you think about children having to say the pledge of allegiance in school every morning? Back when I was in Highschool I eventually just stopped saying it because to me, making an oath was a serious statement. (It's part of the whole medieval thing with me, long story) But thinking about it, there is no way a third grader can fully understand what it means to make an oath of allegiance to a nation. It's just like saying "thats a republican third grader" Or "that's a christian third grader", the child has no comprehension of those things, so why expect them to be able to understand the gravity of a pledge of allegiance to a country?
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Oh, and I found this:
In 2006, in the Florida case Frazier v. Alexandre, No. 05-81142 (S.D. Fla. May 31, 2006) "A federal district court in Florida has ruled that a 1942 state law requiring students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution, even though the law allows students to opt out, because they can only do so with written parental permission and are still required to stand during the recitation.
Yeah, certain breeds of Christian have a problem with it too. To me it smacks of cult behavior/brainwashing - getting kids to recite something they really don't understand. By Jr high almost nobody actually said it. The "under god" thing is about the worst part of course. A lot of other people don't say it because they don't believe there is liberty and justice for all in the US - I tend to agree. Do you know how many kids think the word is "invisible" rather than "indivisible" - thinking it's referring to God because it immediately follows and they don't know what "indivisible" means? By the way, how exactly can you be allied with a flag?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
There's a big controversy in South Africa at the moment due to plans to introduce a pledge at schools.I'm totally against it, as people go to school to learn,not be nazi youth or something. It's also making people who had nothing to do with apartheid apologise for it,but that's another story.
Anyway, I went to christian schools were we pledged alliegance to jesus and the bible everyday..
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
I consider any brainwashing unethical. Children should be taught how to think, not what to think.
...
Btw, if I recall correctly, I understood exactly what it meant to take an oath of allegiance by the time I was in the third grade... so I stopped doing it. Loyalty should be earned, not indoctrinated.
1) It is an oath (thus the name, yeah?) so it's stripped of all meaning if a person is forced to say it. Children don't have the first clue what taking an oath entails.
2) We need to remove "under god" from it... because it totally fucks up the meter. It's a poem you McCarthyist louts, you can't just throw in words higglty pigglty!
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Yep, brainwashing.
But if you don't start that early wouldn't it be more difficult to get them to willingly go off to die in wars later on in life?
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Yeah, I was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness, and I never said the pledge of allegiance. The argument was that the only thing that anyone should pledge allegiance to is God, and that pledging to a flag is a form of idolatry, which it is, even from a secular standpoint of "idolatry" being an irrational allegiance to an object or symbol.
In grade school, nobody seemed to mind. However, I remember getting in trouble when I went to high school. My home room teacher was very psuedo-patriotic, and me not doing the pledge really pissed her off. She thought I was just saying that it was against my religion so I could be unpatriotic because I hated America or something. I also almost got suspended in art class because I drew an image of somebody burning a flag. I made it as a symbolic painting that was about recycling, and I used the burning flag as a metaphor for destroying America, as it would be a BAD thing, but, of course, I didn't get that across, and my teacher destroyed the painting in front of me.
It just goes to show you that jingoistic "patriotism" can be just as irrational as religion.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful"
-- Seneca
the origanal pledge, from the ninteenth century; I pledge alliegence to the flag, of the United States of America. and to the republic for which it stands one nation, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. That under god crap wasn't shoved in untill the 1920's. The origenal I have no problem with.
Before anyone asks, I'm a Mainer, born in N.B. and I live in the GTA. (Toronto)
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I thought it wasn't added until the 1950's.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
It was in 1954 when it was officially added.
Most of it was due to a campaign by the Knights of Columbus.
The original pledge first appeared in 1891 in the periodical "The Youth's Companion".
At about the same time, the author of the pledge, Francis Bellamy, was a chairman in the National Education Association, and created a program for the public schools' Columbus Day celebration in 1892. This is how the "Pledge of Allegiance" began.
There were a couple minor changes before 1954, such as changing the term "my flag" to "the flag of the United States of America" in 1924. Also, the word "to" was added in 1892 which changed "and the Republic for which it stands" to "and to the Republic for which it stands".
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful"
-- Seneca
Thank darwin I'm no fakin american. No offense, but there are really a lot of things which are fucked up in USA.
Hence why I'm leaving when I finish college.
True America has its faults, but all this anti-Americanism is getting a little tiresome. I would think most Americans on this board realize the current President is one of the worst leaders in our history, and perhaps current western democratic history. Fighting multiple wars around the world is not a policy that engenders good will and respect from you global neighbors. There are a ton of stupid religious people here, but there are also a lot of smart, scientific people here as well and it is not very nice to say you are superthankful you're not a "fakin(I hope you misspelled frakkin) American."
Being born an American is no different than being born an Iranian, and I am sure while a lot of people think their country is somewhat frakked right now, they are not whining about being born as a citizen of Iran with no previous input in the decision.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
The pledge is nationalistic propaganda and the words under God should never have been put into it. It is unconstitutional and should be removed. I know personally that most people just kind of mumbled it along every morning or put their hand on their heart and stood quietly. I had a few teachers that said, "we're not going to waste time with this, lets get started" and just turn off the intercom when the pledge came on.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
The problem isn't just the extreme religiosity (I think the US is probably the worst place in that regard outside of the mideast, Phillipines and much of Africa) but the extreme right wingness here. An average Democrat here would be considered a staunch conservative in Western Europe. Plus all the wastefulness kind of ticks off the rest of the world. Not to mention the extreme arrogance of some of us (mostly, again, the ultra-conservatives.)
Back on topic, wouldn't it be much better to pledge to the constitution?
I pledge allegiance
to freedom
and the constitution of America
and to the principles
for which it stands
one nation
indivisible (then continue as is...)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I don't hate American people, i hate American stupid people (fundamelists, simply stupid, George).
I simply hate Americas point of view: America is greatest nation in the world, so we will take all oil to our selfs. And everyone else could go to hell.
P.S. Divide those smart and scientific people from the rest and send them to Europe.
P.S.S. What's the difference between "fakin" and "frakin"?
I remember reciting the pledge in Kindergarten and feeling strange about it. I would say due to the fact that most of the words--> I had no idea their meaning!
I remember clearly thinking that ".....and to the republic, for which it stands..." Was "....and to the republic for 'witches stance'.." That is how I recited it for a VERY long time.
Even after I was taught about the pledge (or at least wanted to listen to an explanation) I still didn't feel like I should be forced to say it. And that WAS how I felt...'forced'...because if I didn't place my right hand over my heart and murmur those words I would be going against the group. Very scary as a child, going against the group....
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
I actually agree with the Witnesses that The Pledge meets the Biblical definition of idolatry, whether it includes "under God" or not; most pre-20th Century Christian Americans would likely have the same opinion, but people have forgotten that. Pledging to the Constitution isn't a bad idea, but the thing to keep in mind is that any oath is meant to be taken in a somber realization of a promise to oneself as much to the subject of the oath. If anyone wants to pledge his or her loyalty to any institution, it need not be reaffirmed on a daily basis. That's what makes an oath into a prayer or a mantra.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
It warms my heart to see others who think obligating people to recite the pledge everyday is stupid. Its one of those political heresies I feel like I can't discuss with anyone because people get incredibly worked up over nationalistic symbolism.
That also reminds me of those idiots that insists the US is the best country in the world, and if another one of us disagrees suggests we move to Iran/China/whatever - used to be Russia. Don't they get we aren't saying its the WORST country, but many of us feel Canada, Australia and Western Europe are far better. Maybe for whatever reason we can't move their - lack of money, job, family/friends, etc. I guess that's the nutcase super-patriots favorite false dichotomy. The US could do much better if we moved WAY further to the left and eliminated all the religious influence.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
So many good points...
* I confine my anti-Americanism to the people running the place into the ground. It's a fine country, and a good constitution, if only we could find some people to keep it that way.
* Reciting a pledge or oath in school reeks of fascism. If we had a few people keeping the government in line with the constitution, we probably wouldn't have to force patriotism on so many people.
* I detest American consumerism. I think it's an embarrassment and smacks of arrogant ignorance.
* It wouldn't surprise me to see a mass exodus of left wing types in the next couple of decades. Of course, that will mean more conservatives in Canada and Europe...
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Norway, Sweden, Denmark...
Yeah, that pisses me off too. When I was in school in southern California and we talked about the pledge someone would end up saying something about how lucky we are to live in THE best part of THE best state in THE best country in the world.
Wow, isn't that amazing. Of all the spots on Earth I happened to be dropped in the best place on the entire planet. I must be special.
I used to think, "Huh? Why? Says who?" The people there, of course. But don't most people think their country (or state or school or race or religion ....whatever) is THE best? But argue that point and, not only do you get accused of being unpatriotic, you might even be called anti-American. Then, like you said, you're told, "If you don't like it here then move to another country!"
Of course, I hadn't said I didn't like the U.S. (although I do truly hate Los Angeles) but they don't get that. They assume that if you don't think your country is the greatest that ever exited than you must hate it. There is, apparently, nothing inbetween.
But, that kind of early brainwashing helps governments build armies, so it will never stop.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
For the record, I have a friend from Kenya. He doesn't think Kenya is the best country in the world.
Now that I've nitpicked, I think that kind of belief is representative of a kind of false dichotomy that plagues Americans at evey turn. Either you're a good person or you're bad. You're for me or you're against me. We very often want to see things as a choice between opposites when the reality is that life is much more complex than that. Most of the Europeans I know wouldn't say their country is the best in the world. They would say that it's very good in some ways, neutral in some, and bad in others.
I hate to pull the Hitler card, but I notice that when nations start thinking of themselves as the best people in the world (Germany and Japan come immediately to mind. Not far behind are the Crusaders...) bad things usually follow.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Well Americans have been thinking of themselves as the greatest for a long time. Then we got President Bush. So, yeah, bad things did follow!
I am so grateful for our two-term limit! I was actually worried for a while that he would try to abolish that.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Now, if we could get a ban on immediate family...
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
http://geography.about.com/cs/culturalgeography/a/mentalmaps.htm
From a local paper last year...
Pledge divides teacher, student - An article about a music teacher pitching a fit about a young man not participating in the daily Pledge of Allegiance.
Standing for flag isn't supporting war - An opinion piece basically stating the young man is disrespecting his cousin, Lance Cpl. Nathan Raymond Wood of Kirkland, who was killed in action during military operations in Fallujah by not pledging allegiance to the flag.
Salute young man for being respectful - My reply to the opinion piece and original article above.
I'm proud to be an American and proud to participate in the pledge of allegiance when I get the chance. I'm also proud to place my hand over my heart during the singing of the national anthem and when the flag goes by during parades. But I strongly believe that no one should be compelled to participate in any of these rituals of national pride. Also no one should be allowed to participate in any rituals of national pride until they understand what it is they will be doing and what it generally means to participate.
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
This article has some good arguments.
http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=53
It's an interesting site in general. They say they're impartial. I haven't read enough to know if that's true. But it looks like a good resource for information on agruments relating to religious/social/political issues.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
There shouldn't *be* a pledge of allegiance. A pledge to the Constitution or to a set if ideals, that would be a good idea. But pledging your unending allegience to an inadimate object--that could stand for anything--and to your country, purely because you live there, is illogical nationalism. Something isn't rght just because your country/people did it, and using that as justification leads to all sorts of nasty things, just take a look in a history book.
Little caveat first: I am not an American, so don't put too much weight on my words here forasmuch as they relate to the USA.
In all honesty, the "liberty and justice for all" bit does appeal to me. Even reciting something with those tenets in it -and even by children- does not réally rub me the wrong way.
Although I understand the danger that this might (maybe even rightly so) be perceived as nationalistic in a scary way. And I completely agree that children should be thought to think rather then what to think.
However, what I perceive around me is that "not thinking" is precisely what people seem to be doing. Something of a daily recitation might for many people be a nice reminder about a couple of very important basic principles. I could imagine some sort of "pledge" with a couple of Human Rights worked into them, as well as a "liberty and justice" bit, and maybe even something like a "one humanity, undivisable"- bit.
Or am I confusing my personal political view with "universal truth" and would this be a way of "forcing free thought" on people (and is forced free thought really free?)
Thing is, and this is what started me thinking about all this: in my own country (NL, but I see the same thing happen in neighbouring countries) many people seem to be searching for "something" to gather behind. And at the moment this "something" seems to be populistic politicians with scary stories about terrorism, who álso have a whiff of a fascist scent about them.
Well to be fair, I have never seen anyone style themselves "patriot" and not be some sort of right-wing nutcase or your average racist (smygrasist). Even the outspoken neo-nazis call themselves that.