And does God really want people consuming more than their fair share of resources? I forget what the exact ratio is, but the U.S. has something like 5% of the world's population yet consumes 20% of the world's resources. Anyone who breeds to this extent is demonstrating maniacal self-centeredness, and clearly loves themselves more than any god.

And there it is. The first step down the long road to misery.

Well, considering many believe the end of days is near, why ration resources? So rape, pilage, and plunder the Earth's resources to your heart's content! After all, "God put them trees there for us to chop down"!

Yeah. Most of us are forgetting that we are just animals. Back on the cave man days, we had to have shit loads of children because it was unlikely they would all survive. These people are just doing what we're genetically hard-wired to do. Of course pretty soon we developed technology, which continued to evolve in ways that kept us healthier for longer, and decreased infant mortality rates. The technology evolved, but we didn't.  So now we still have the biological need to have kids and keep them alive, but now we're too good at it.

Here's the thing. From an evolutionary standpoint, we are "wired" to procreate often, because chances are, half your kids will die of disease or get eaten or something.

But in modern times, things are different. Taking care of offspring doesn't just entail feeding them until they reach sexual maturity and go off on their own. Thanks to "civilization" we've complicated the system immensely. Now, raising children entails signing them up for soccer, going to their ballet recitals, making sure they're keeping up in school, outfitting them with braces, sending them to college, getting them toys, keeping them safe from violence, making sure they're up to date on innoculations and dental exams... and feeding them. All this is a much bigger investment in time and money. Plus, it doubles the time that children are dependent on parents - instead of 12-13 years, it can easily reach 25, because many aren't financially independent when they reach legal adulthood (myself included).

Luckily, we've invented contraceptives, so that instead of getting overwhelmed, we can focus on only a couple kids, to ensure that they turn out ok.

The thing is, now that we are able to think rationally, we are often able to override our animal instincts. We now know that our sex drive is a mechanism in place for making sure we procreate. However, we also know that humans are eating up resources at a horrifying rate, and humans are overpopulating the planet. We know how many kids we can feasibly financially support with our paychecks. We know that finishing education is better in the long-run than dropping out to pop out a kid. Because we can think rationally about the big picture, and because we can weigh these facts against one another, I think it's safe to say that the majority of us come to the realization that it's impractical to have sex with the goal of procreation every time.

I don't think the evolution argument has any bearing here, considering how many other aspects of our lives we've artificially changed with rational thinking and technology. We've extended our lifespans, learned to diet & exercise rather than stuff our faces, invented corrective lenses, etc. Saying god meant for us to have a lot of kids is like saying he meant for us to be fat & blind and die at age 40. The fact is, the zeitgeist changes with technology, and so it should apply to reproduction as well.

I really think anyone who plans on "saving themselves for marriage" and really follows through will likely be saving themselves for themselves. I wouldn't date a woman who thought like that - not only because she's likely a religious nut but also because it would be stupid. You don't buy a car without taking it for a test drive, right? Marriage is a lot more serious than buying a car and getting divorced is a lot mor trouble and expense than winding up with a piece of shit car. One thing I always point out when people cite studies that people who live together before marriage are more likely to get divorced than those who don't (I don't even pretend they'll know what the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is) is that only extreme religious psychos nowadays would get married before living together first - and they usally are also very strongly against divorce.

For fucksake its a uterus not a vending machine!!

I hate how they say its up to God how many children they have. Yeah, that's right, haven't you heard of family planning you fucking morons!?

I think you're misunderstanding my position here. I agree with your statement that technology evolves & we don't, and I agree we can see many instances of people being undone by instinct + technology.

For example:

[instinct to graze constantly on calorie dense foods] + [easily accessible calorie dense food] = obese people

[instinct to sleep when it is dark] + [lightbulb] = insomnia

[instinct to attack people when angry] + [nuclear weapons] = death & destruction

However, there are also instances where technology can actually improve upon or outsmart our instincts, and contraception is included in this category. I'm not saying don't have sex. On the contrary, fuck all you want! With contraception. There are so many options out there today, there really is no excuse to not be using it (unless you are trying to conceive, obviously). There are many many types of condoms, a variety of formulations of birth control pills, IUDs, the shot, the patch, spermicidal lube, the today sponge, etc. More permanent options include vasectomies & getting your tubes tied.

Because here's what happens:

[instinct to fuck like crazy] + [contraception of choice] = no babies (yes, there's a <1-2% chance of conceiving, but for all intents and purposes, let's just say that's negligible)

Thus, contraception works with, rather than against, our natural animal instincts.

What I'm trying to say is that the reason why we desire sex on a regular basis is rooted in procreational purposes. But that is because early man often didn't even live half as long as we do now. It was necessary to keep population numbers up. Now that we have figured out ways to keep people alive longer through modern medicine, we have to also figure out a way to prevent overpopulation.

As an aside, contraception doesn't do us any good if people don't know how to properly use it. The first time I had sex in college, the guy at least had a condom, but then said, "How does this work? How do I put this on?" And in my head, I was like, 'You've got to be kidding me! You're the guy, you're supposed to know how to do this!' I had only had sex one time before that, so it's not like I had a lot of experience with this stuff. Of course, the condom broke, probably because it wasn't put on properly. So then he kind of freaked out, but I didn't become pregnant from the incident luckily. Later on, I learned it had actually been his first time, which sort of explained things. But isn't this something that should be covered in a sex-ed program?

I never heard anything about how to until college (granted I graduated HS in 1992) - sex ed in the classes I had were limited to the dry sperm & egg stuff and graphic pictures/movies about STD's. The one we saw that mentioned protection was from about 1977 - starring Auntie Biotic, Penny Cillin and Captain Condom as superheroes. AIDS was never mentioned in them cause they were so old, until the science teacher brought in a late 1980's News program that he personally recorded at home. Imagine what it's like in the Buybull belt where they teach "astinence only" and bullshit like condoms don't work - or worse kids that went to a Christian school - and it's easy to see they wouldn't know how to use one, or might not even know what one looks like.

AHAHAHAHAHA oh jesus fucking christ that is too funny for words. At my school they most definitely do not tell us how to use a condom but 1)if you get boxes, they even include directions sometimes even with cartoon-like pictures, and 2) how hard is it, really? seems like a pretty simple design. but anyway....

of course we also have an instinct at some point to raise our own children. rationally, we know there's too many people, but people still have kids because they find it fulfilling. Fucking is a huge instinct, but we also want to pass on our genetic code and typically receive emotional rewards for doing so. despite all the trouble and money spent, I'm sure Mrs. 20 kids, and especially Mr. 20 kids, feel mighty proud of themselves.