The "Freethinking" Atheist
Offline The term "freethinking" presupposes a belief in "free will." However, in the deterministic worldview of atheistic materialism, there is no free will. In other words, every thought or belief that an atheist has or entertains was completely predetermined and could not have been otherwise. This hardly constitutes the idea of freethinking.
The bottom line is that if there is no free will, then there is no freethinking. Moreover, the term "freethinking atheist" is actually an oxymoron. That being said, I will kindly ask the atheists on this forum to refrain from describing themselves as freethinkers. Intellectually honesty demands this.
Thank you. 
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Paisley, (80 97 105 115 108 101 121 44)
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Paisley, you can state what you think Game Theory is about until the cows come home, but until your statement contains some truth, you're just looking like an ignorant twit.
What you may not realize is that several of us are very familiar with Game Theory, and there are some people reading this thread who are better than just familiar with it. All this posturing you're doing doesn't make you appear smarter. Maybe you can convince the folks on some Christian boards that you know what you're talking about, but here, you are just making an ass of yourself.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
As science and reputable scientists don't hold inflexibly to its conclusions in the presence of new information, it's not a dogma and the practitioners aren't dogmatic.
Is this another of your shifting definitions to fit again? That must be why you chose to use the perjorative definition instead of the neutral one:
"The term scientism can be used as a neutral term to describe the view that natural science has authority over all other interpretations of life, such as philosophical, religious, mythical, spiritual, or humanistic explanations, and over other fields of inquiry, such as the social sciences."
Do those cherries you're picking taste good?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That is not what a Freudian slip is at all. Using 'god' in an expletive is not even a slip of any sort. It is simply using a common expletive and it has no bearing on a person's belief in god. Do you assume that in order to use 'god' in an expletive a person must believe they are offending god and thus believe? If so, that's not how people use expletives.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Ok, Paisley, just for the moment let's work with your framework:
You make the point that atheists cannot claim to think freely because atheism presupposes a lack of free will.
You further make the point that the lack of free will is mandated by materialist determinism.
But here's my question to you: What if you're not a material determinist? What if, instead, you're an agnostic who makes no claim of knowing anything about the fundamental mechanics of the universe?
You assert that atheism itself precludes what you call 'free thought'. So, if that's the case, then please demonstrate how a lack of surety precludes freedom of thought.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
What is dogmatic is the rigid belief that the scientific method is the only valid avenue of inquiry. This is what is known as scientism (which is not to be confused with science itself).
I wasn't cherry picking. Originally I quoted the neutral definition and only later included the pejorative definition in order to leave no doubt that scientism is a dogmatic ideology. In order to alleviate any further confusion, I will now post the entire introductory paragraph of the Wikipedia article on "scientism."
The so-called atheistic definition of "freethinker" is inherently self-refuting because the freethought movement professes itself to be "free from all dogma" and yet holds the DOGMATIC belief that personal beliefs "should be formed on the basis of science" and that "science has authority over all other interpretations of life" and over all "other fields of inquiry." The conventional term to characterized such a dogmatic belief is "scientism."
The bottom line: The atheist is not a "freethinker," neither by my definition (which is the literally rendering of the term), nor by his.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
When someone stubs their toe they might say 'God dammit!' (Most often I say 'Ow!' because my toe hurts.) This is a common expletive. Even taken literally, the person is not blaming god, they'd be asking god to damn something. (Perhaps the thing they've walked into?) The person is likely aware that the reason their toe was stubbed was through their own negligence in paying attention to where their toe was going. There are numerous other occasions where anyone might say 'God dammit!' and to literally interpret that as the person asking god to damn something would make their statement incomprehensible. It's a good thing, then, that no one is making such a statement; they're uttering an expletive. Expletives don't usually refer to anything or have any meaning, they're just strings of sound used in instances where people are emotional.
It is customary to use certain expletives in particular situations, this is a learnt trait, and thus they can carry connotations. Sometimes expletives are used in place of other words or sentences and take over their meaning, for instance, 'Fuck off!' is understood to mean 'Go away!' or any other similar sentence, however, with the extra connotation that person uttering 'Fuck off!' is particular angry with whom they're telling to go away and has decided to convey all of that in their use of the expletive. Of course, no one assumes that the person means for anyone to literally 'fuck' when they say that or else the intention of the expletive would have been lost. It is likely, however, that even someone unfamiliar with the use of the expletive would get the hint. In the same way does 'God dammit!' only show someone's dissatisfaction, anger, pain, awe or disappointment in a circumstance or situation and not that the person wishes god would damn something. If, indeed, someone did mean that, I would wonder at what they wanted god to damn since the expletive doesn't actually point to anything but immaterial things.
Since you think that using god in an expletive means the person believes in god and is blaming god, in what way is a person blaming god for anything by uttering 'God dammit!'? Or were you talking about a different expletive? Perhaps, 'Jesus Christ!' or 'Jesus, Marry and Joseph!' or 'Marry, mother of god!' or 'Christ almighty!' or 'Merde' or... well, I think I've made my point. (In case you don't get it, none of the expletives actually intend to blame 'god' for anything, they're just that: expletives.'
Your whole argument, however, is more simply refuted by pointing out that just because you believe it's cursing god to use god in an expletive does not mean that anyone who utters an expletive that includes the word god believes they're doing the same thing. An Atheist certainly doesn't think that she's cursing god, she in fact can't curse god because she doesn't believe in god. What you're arguing requires that the person uttering the expletive means to curse god and, as I've pointed out, that's not how people use expletives.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
First, only the perjorative uses made it to the post I responded to. Glad to see you rectified it.
Second, where did you get that all atheists are followers of scientism? I'd never heard of it until you brought it up. I respect science for its contributions to the betterment of humanity (far more than religion) but I don't worship it. I tend to think that beliefs should be based in reality and not an invisible friend of whatever description you choose.
The bottom line is that you've found a definition of "freethinker" that fits your belief about freethinkers and you won't change it no matter how much contrary (and correct) information is shown to you. Who's dogmatic again?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Wow, I never thought the day would come where I got to correct Hamby, but come it has: you demonstrably used the wrong vowel in the last word of your last sentence above.
To everyone else:
Please heed this warning: it will only end in heartbreak and sorrow.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
Having discovered the following entry on wordnet (not what I consider a linguistic authority, but good enough for arguing over the internet), I accept your correction:
twat: 1. a man who is a stupid incompetent fool
Originally, I avoided this word out of respect for the vulva. I can say with certainty that I've never heard a vulva say anything as ignorant as Paisley's assessment of Game Theory.
The following definition for twit is applicable, but not nearly as precise:
twit: 1. an insignificant or bothersome person.
I have no idea of Paisley's significance, but I can attest to being slightly bothered by his comments. Willful ignorance always bothers me. In any case, I stand properly corrected. Paisley is acting like a twat.
Oh, and Paisley, are you just going to keep blathering on even though your entire premise is based on ignorance of Game Theory?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I'm pretty sure he meant 'twit' and not ''twat', if that's what you meant. Both are words, but Hambydammit likely meant twit and he has spelt it correctly.
Edit: Apparently Hamby and I were posting at the same time and I stand corrected, but couldn't Paisley be both a twit and a twat?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Paisley is either being willfully ignorant, or truely is moronic in his understanding of term freethinker, as such and as stated before, with his vague and misconstrued defintion of free will, then freedom fighters must believe in free will, nor is there free press, or free agents, free market, free state, free fall, free throw, or in the end freedom of speech since every MUST believe in free will because ALL those words have free in them, as such using his method, if it contains free it HAS to be free will or nothing. Nice going Paisley, you lost the debate right from the beginning, your just to dogmatic to understand where you lost it at.
A wise person doesn't believe the science fiction of their own imagination regarding the vast unknown. Everyone is in AWE.
If dogma was water the religious hypocrites are drowning, while the science practitioners walk on top of the water .... There is no way to completely escape dogma, so being aware of it makes one the wiser ..... Some say story Jesus was such a wise man, walking above the sea of humanities average reasoning ....
The religious are ALL wet ! Scientists only get their feet wet. No one is perfect !
Atheism Books.
Curiously coherent....
Are you still out of rum?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Everyone needs Beer and Rum to read that other me, I suppose ???
Atheism Books.
Well, I'm going for sake tonight... we'll see how sake for me and rum for you works out.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
A grand experiment indeed ..... I luv the oriental things ....
Such things are not intellectual endeavors and you're quite simply elevating the issue to absurd heights. Its clear that these things have become common spur of the moment verbal reactions that express negative feelings such as 'pain', 'anger', or even 'frustration'.....etc.... Nothing more. There is no rhetorical victory to be had here.
For example: dictionary.com:
Goddamnit –interjection (sometimes initial capital letter) Informal: Sometimes Offensive.
(used to express anger, perplexity, amazement, etc.)
The words(phrases) contribute nothing more than a thoughtless emotive reaction and aren't lending themselves to be interpreted literally. You're clearly being thick and pedantic.
As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,
But the light grows weak while under Yggdrasil. --clutch
I have given you and your cohorts ample opportunity to explain how "Game Theory" refutes my argument. To date, no such explanation has been forthcoming. I'm afraid my patience is beginning to run a little thin. Simply spouting off how brilliant you and your fellow atheists are will no longer do. Unless you demonstrate the ability in the near future to actually formulate some kind of argument, I will not feel obligated to respond to any comments you may feel compelled to post and direct my way.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
This debate is not a CONTEST ..... ( ummm? , but it IS , wait that makes no sense
Atheism Books.
"Robots with consciousness" are not capable of free thought. No further commentary is necessary.
You and your fellow atheists are understandably upset that the worldview you share relegates yourselves to the status of "robots with consciousness."
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
It was a rhetorical question. I'm quite aware that Dawkins is clueless concerning the concept of pantheism.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
SEE ---->
Or he sees through it for what it is... a way to claim a deity but not take it seiously by making it meaningless.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I don't know why you are saying "thank you." Clearly, you are just as misinformed about the nature of pantheism as is Dawkins. If you had a clue, you never would have conflated pantheism (actually panentheism) with atheism.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
FEEL THE ATHEIST LOVE , MR. P ?????????
Oh Paisley, at least have the decency to actually respond to my arguments. "Robots with consciousness" may or may not be capable of free thought, but that is not the question at hand. We are discussing freethought not free thought. How many times must I explain that the two are different?
Firstly, that doesn't upset me at all. Secondly, you are shifting the focus of the argument from freethought to the nature of free will. Once again, if you wish to discuss a new topic, start a new thread. This one is too messy as is.
COME TO THE DARK SIDE -- WE HAVE COOKIES
curse 1: to use profanely insolent language against : blaspheme <curse God and die — Job 2:9(REB)>2 a: to call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon (source: Merriam-Webster Online)
bless : to invoke divine care for (source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)
Anytime an atheist employs the term "God damn it," he is literally calling upon God to curse somebody or something. And anytime an atheist says "God bless you," he is literally calling upon God to bless somebody. Now, what aren't you getting?
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
So when I say to someone "Crap, I forgot my keys" I am really telling that person to take a crap? Or is this different?
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Apparently, what we have here is a "robot with consciousness" taking a fatal error. Sorry for the meltdown. You have my condolences and sympathy.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
!@#$%^&*()_
Nothing or everything .... Paisley you are a sick FEAR MONGER , fuck you SATAN .....
Atheism Books.
You're probably right. This isn't a Freudian slip. It's a blatant display of blasphemy. When anyone yells "Jesus F***** Christ" after stubbing his toe, I will assume that he is blaming Christ for his mishap. There is no other rational explanation to account for such behavior.
The facts are that it is the tendency of human beings to cry out to a higher power (God) in a crisis situation. And by the same token, it is the tendency of human beings to curse "the powers that be" (God) when misfortune comes their way. That an atheist would curse the name of God over something so trivial as stubbing one's toe speaks volumes.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil '97
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CNZ7iod9s
LOUDER
Atheism Books.
Paisley is not the devil as there is not such entity. He is a lost sheep that is looking for the way. It is unfortunate he wastes his effort as he does in what appears to be a vendetta against atheists. He could make better use of his intelligence in finding a cure for cancer or an alternative fuel source.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
INDEED, I have trouble with words , dang me
Yet here we go again, you omit parts of the defintion which don't agree with you. Such as the following your forgot to add:
2 a: to call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon <was cursed and fears he will die> b: to execrate in fervent and often profane terms <cursed by future generations unless we act now>3: to bring great evil upon : afflict <a land cursed with famine>intransitive verb: to utter imprecations : swear <cursing loudly>
or as a noun
1 : a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one : imprecation 2 : something that is cursed or accursed 3 : evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution 4 : a cause of great harm or misfortune : torment 5 : menstruation —used with the Now of course we could look at it another way, such as:Which many of us in our society, when we injure ourself we curse as in profanity form or cathartic form which is simply to express to those around us, or to express negative emotions (which occurs when you injure yourself) which is far different than the blasphemous form (which you are trying to associate with) which is a direct attack on sacred religous figures or objects....which last time I checked injuring your toe is not a direct attack on religion.
Agreed.
Exactly.
Then you're not an atheist materialist, but an agnostic.
I never said that an atheist does not have free will. I simply stated that the deterministic worldview of atheistic materialism does not permit him the luxury of calling himself a free thinker.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Okay P you win , now what ?
No, I'm an agnostic atheist. I still have no belief in any form of God. I simply also have no disbelief. We've covered this ground before, and you know it.
Actually, while you do begin with atheistic materialism in order to establish 'no free will', you then turn around and paint all atheists with that brush. Allow me to refer you to:
and:
Note: Not 'I will kindly ask the materialistic determinist atheists on this forum...'
I am an atheist. I am an agnostic atheist, but I am still an atheist. I may also be slightly unhinged, as I maintain no clear trust in the reality of reality (but you knew that), and so, I would have to say that 'freethinking atheists' are possible.
So, I ask you now:
If we stipulate your usage of 'freethinker', as 'one able to made decisions without prior causes, completely free of stimulus-response relationships', or 'one possesed of free will', as opposed to Webster's definition of: 'one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma' would technically mean that materialist determinist atheists cannot claim 'free thought' under your definition, then would you be willing to stipulate that a)under Webster's definition of 'freethinker', this is not the case, and b)even under your own definition, atheists who make no assertion of materialist determinism are also exempted?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Careful there, I AM, you're getting dangerously close to my position of 'interact however you must, but know only that you exist'.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
I AM indeed
Are you saying yo do have a god named "FUCK"? You keep glossing over the example I used and putting in your own to fit your arguments.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Not all atheists are determinists. Determinism doesn't necessarily preclude free will. Intellectual honesty demands that you study more before making asinine assumptions and jumping to conclusions.
Thank you.
ETA: I obviously got in on this thread belatedly. My apologies for not reading all 5 pages first.
Atheist Books
It's OK - we've been going over the same ground with Mr./Mrs./?? "god in everything" for a while now. he/she/it has his/her/its definition that fits his/her/its beliefs and that's all that matters to him/her/it.
Good summary. Thank you.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Agreed. The expression "God damn it" literally suggests that an individual is calling upon God to punish somebody (actually something..."it" is generally considered to be impersonal). This is why such an expression is called cursing. The individual is literally asking that someone or something be justly punished or condemned (i.e. cursed).
So, let's place this in proper context. The so-called unbeliever stubs his toe on the bottom leg of a coffee table and screams "God F****** damn it!!!" Now, what are we to make of such behavior?
Well, the individual is clearly angry (a present state of "rage" is probably a better description). But if he is angry, then he must be angry with someone or something? So, with "whom" is he directing his anger? Or, at "what" is he directing his anger?
1) Is he angry with the coffee table? Does he actually believe that an inanimate object deliberately had the intention to bring him pain? Maybe? But what does this reveal about the unbeliever's beliefs? Whenever you're angry, you're angry with an intelligent agent, not with an inanimate object or an impersonal situation. Inanimate objects or impersonal situations cannot be held morally responsible for unpleasant experiences. So we can easily dismiss this explanation; it's simply absurd.
2) Is he angry with himself? Possibly. But when you consider the worldview of atheistic materialism, then this doesn't really make any rational sense. Why? Because in the deterministic worldview of atheistic materialism, every action an individual performs "could not have been otherwise." In other words, each and every event that one experiences was predetermined by the blind, pitiless forces of nature playing themselves out. So why is he blaming and cursing himself for something he had absolutely no control over? It's completely absurd. Besides, are we to really believe that the unbeliever is demanding that he be punished for being such a bumbling idiot? This will only compound his pain and will not alleviate his sense of righteous indignation.
3) Is he upset with the "universe" itself? Does he actually believe that the forces of nature are conspiring argainst him? Perhaps. But, how can you be angry at something that is not intelligent and therefore cannot held morally responsible? This is no different than being angry with an inanimate object (e.g. the coffee table). It's absurd.
4) Is he upset with a higher power or intelligence (i.e. God) whom he believes is deliberately against him? Most definitely. This is the only thing that makes a smattering of rational sense.
Agreed. An individual will curse another human being because he (the individual) is expressing righteous indignation and believes the other is guilty and deserving of retribution.
I have made a bullet-proof argument earlier in this post why the atheist does indeed exhibit anger directed towards God. The evidence for this behavior is played out everyday by such trivial mishaps as stubbing one's toe.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
JC,
Paisley is a he.
Thanks
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Paisley,
I know you are fond of the NT based on your previous usage so consider your statements in light of Mark 11:12-14.
"12 And the next day when they came out from Bethania, he was hungry. 13 And when he had seen afar off a fig tree having leaves, he came if perhaps he might find any thing on it. And when he was come to it, he found nothing but leaves. For it was not the time for figs. 14 And answering he said to it: May no man hereafter eat fruit of thee any more for ever. And his disciples heard it." Douay-Rheims Version
So when you consider this, Jesus the son of God cursed an inanimate object because it didn't feed him. What that says according to you is Jesus is absurd for blaming the object. So as you say is the Universe conspiring against him so he cannot eat. Your answer is it can't that is absurd. So that only leaves the possibility that Jesus is angry with God for not feeding him figs. Or himself. Granted I think Jesus was a spaced out desert prophet but this is about what you claim.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Thank you PJTS. Just trying to cover all the baaes.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Agreed. I know atheists who claim to be practice a form of Satanism, replete with all the trappings of a black mass and ceremonial magic. This is why I limit my discussion of atheism to atheistic materialism. Materialism is a deterministic worldview. Anytime an atheist refuses to acknowledge a materialistic postion, then I know I am confronting an individual who has some kind of spiritual or lurking god-belief.
I am fully aware of the philosophical terms associated with the "free will" debate. What you are referring to is what is called "compatibilist free will." Compatibilism is the attempt to redefine free will as it is conventionally understood to make it "compatible" with determinism. However, the only rational agent who can really be characterized has having compatible free will is a pantheistic God because only such an agent would be completely free from any external influence.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead