The definition of a Soul as the most central and complex symbol our brains, "I"

Jiggles Vibe
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The definition of a Soul as the most central and complex symbol our brains, "I"

If you think that I'm referring to the definition as what theists see it as, think OTHERWISE. this one is not like theirs (in fact, it can apply to non-living objects and it's not going to heaven or hell when we die, contradicting their definition, read on).

 

I've come across this book in my Local Barnes and Noble bookstore without a clue as to what its content is. When reading the insert, it caught my eye:

["What do we mean when we say "I"? Can a self, a soul, a consciousness, an "I" arise out of mere matter? If it cannot, then how can we understand this baffling emergence? Deep down, a human brain is a chaotic seething soup of particles, on a higher level it is a network of abstractions that we call "symbols". The most central and complex symbol in your brain or mine is the one we both call "I". An "I" is a strange loop in a brain where symbolic and physical levels feed back into each other and flop causality upside down, with symbols seeming to have free will and to have gained the paradoxical ability to push particles around, rather than the reverse. For each human being, this "I" seems to be the realest thing in the world. But how can such a mysterious abstraction be real- or is our "I" merely a convenient fiction? Does an "I" exert genuine power over the the particles in our brain, or is it helplessly pushed around by the all-powerful laws of physics? How do we mirror other beings inside our mind? Can many strange loops of different 'strengths' inhabit one brain? If so, then a hallowed tenet of our culture- that one human brain houses one human soul- is an illusion."]

- "I Am a Strange Loop"  Douglas R. Hofstadter,  Basic Books  2007

 

What the main point is, the soul of a being is its awareness of its place and of itself, its "I". the size of the soul is determined by how strong this "I" is (e.g. humans have a bigger soul than a gnat, which probably is barely aware of itself, most likely just topping a flush toilet system's self-awareness at best). And yes, non-living objects can have this property (a computer may have a soul, but its much smaller than a human because its abstraction of "I" is very weak, next to non-existent, an earthworm has more soul than most computers and if a robot becomes self-aware, then they qualify as having a measurable soul). if its just pushed by the laws of physics, then it's ' hallucination by an illusion'.

 

It's a very interesting and in-depth book. The author addresses number theory, some points in quantum mechanics, complex systems at different scales, self-referencing sentences, analogies, patterns, bits of chaos theory, Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, feedback systems, axioms, philosophical ideas, some aspects of neurology, and anything else i probably overlooked. I recommend a read of this book.

 

did i cite my source right?

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
-Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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I LIKE .... what AM I ? 

I LIKE .... what AM I ?  Seems a cool book of questions .... THANKS


Waiting for Oblivion
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Sounds really good.

Sounds really good.


Watcher
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Jiggles Vibe wrote:["What do

Jiggles Vibe wrote:

["What do we mean when we say "I"? Can a self, a soul, a consciousness, an "I" arise out of mere matter? If it cannot, then how can we understand this baffling emergence? Deep down, a human brain is a chaotic seething soup of particles, on a higher level it is a network of abstractions that we call "symbols". The most central and complex symbol in your brain or mine is the one we both call "I". An "I" is a strange loop in a brain where symbolic and physical levels feed back into each other and flop causality upside down, with symbols seeming to have free will and to have gained the paradoxical ability to push particles around, rather than the reverse. For each human being, this "I" seems to be the realest thing in the world. But how can such a mysterious abstraction be real- or is our "I" merely a convenient fiction? Does an "I" exert genuine power over the the particles in our brain, or is it helplessly pushed around by the all-powerful laws of physics? How do we mirror other beings inside our mind? Can many strange loops of different 'strengths' inhabit one brain? If so, then a hallowed tenet of our culture- that one human brain houses one human soul- is an illusion."]

- "I Am a Strange Loop"  Douglas R. Hofstadter,  Basic Books  2007

 

What the main point is, the soul of a being is its awareness of its place and of itself, its "I". the size of the soul is determined by how strong this "I" is (e.g. humans have a bigger soul than a gnat, which probably is barely aware of itself, most likely just topping a flush toilet system's self-awareness at best). And yes, non-living objects can have this property (a computer may have a soul, but its much smaller than a human because its abstraction of "I" is very weak, next to non-existent, an earthworm has more soul than most computers and if a robot becomes self-aware, then they qualify as having a measurable soul). if its just pushed by the laws of physics, then it's ' hallucination by an illusion'.

"All matter is merely energy at it's slowest vibration.  We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are imaginations of ourselves."

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Jiggles Vibe
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Watcher wrote:"All matter is

Watcher wrote:

"All matter is merely energy at it's slowest vibration.  We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are imaginations of ourselves."

 

well said, well said.

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
-Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon.


Jello
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Well said by Bill Hicks none

Well said by Bill Hicks none the less


HeyZeusCreaseToe
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Here's Tom with the

Here's Tom with the weather....left that out Watcher

 


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HeyZeusCreaseToe

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

Here's Tom with the weather....left that out Watcher

 

Heh.  I was just thinking about that part.  Tool rocks.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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I want to know, why am "I"

I want to know, why am "I" attached to this particular body instead of some other? Why am "I" in me instead of, say, my sister........or you, or Kevin Bacon?

For a theist it's a simple answer: God "assigned" us to our bodies.

For an atheist it's a bit more puzzling.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


Jiggles Vibe
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Theia wrote:I want to know,

Theia wrote:

I want to know, why am "I" attached to this particular body instead of some other? Why am "I" in me instead of, say, my sister........or you, or Kevin Bacon?

I'm afraid the answer is not that simple. You (the "I" that you are) may actually be in your sister, but it's much weaker than the "I" that exists in your body, or at least that's what the author is trying to get at. multiple souls, "I" can inhabit one brain is what he's trying to explore in some of the chapters in the book.

 

this explanation may be too simplified, I haven't read the book in a while.

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
-Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon.


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About "I"

It seems to me that the "I" that we all seem to experience is a solidifier for sane consciousness.  Try to imagine being a sentient, experiential, reasoning being without a concept of self.  Of course I guess it is reasonable to suggest that such a being could exist, but it seems that the development of self is a very efficient product of evolutionary development.  Being that your brain has the overwhelming task of taking in data, processing and forming that into perception, analysis, output, innovation and even sometimes absurdity or obscurity (not necessarily negative), it seems totally efficient to be able to place a persona to fit that process.  If you had to do all of that, with all of the environmental / internal input / output going on, without a sense of self, it could be pretty hazardous to individual survival to be without a way to focus that perception.  Focusing perception through the self also allows for easier communication to others. 

"I see a wolf over there, watch out."  vs.

"the experiential processes of this singular brain within the collective of processing brains  furthermore within this specific environment has determined that a wolf is over there, all sentient beings should take caution as a collective whole."

I know that's a bit ridiculous, but overall it seems that personal identity is a function of communication and a product of being aware. 

 

"G"


Jello
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Watcher

Watcher wrote:

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

Here's Tom with the weather....left that out Watcher

 

Heh.  I was just thinking about that part.  Tool rocks.

 

Are you trying to annoy any Bill Hicks fans that might be lurking on this board?

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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Jello wrote:Are you trying

Jello wrote:

Are you trying to annoy any Bill Hicks fans that might be lurking on this board?

Who's Bill Hicks?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci