One Nice Thing ... Maybe

HisWillness
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One Nice Thing ... Maybe

 I'm not sure if this is true or not, so you guys will have to help me out. I've noticed that one particularly annoying trait among believers is absent in us heathen swine: the competition to be the best believer. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are interpersonal contests between atheists, but I mean that "I'm being a better Christian/Jew/Muslim/Buddhist" tendency there is with groups organized around spiritual rituals.

In fact, I don't even know if it's possible, considering that once you don't believe something, it's not like you could possibly believe it less, whereas a member of a religious group can always say they're following the rules from the book better, or ... faithing harder or something. Even the difference between gnostic and agnostic atheism isn't great enough to cause any real friction. As far as I know, that's just a matter of epistemology.

I could be wrong, but the absence of that type of upstaging is pretty nice.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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I don't know. There've been

I don't know. There've been a few folks who come in and proclaim, "RRS is a bunch of rude cultish bastards! You should be more like those of us over at richarddawkins.net. All hail Dawkins!"

I'm not sure it's in the same category, but I think there is a tendency to prove they are a "better" non-believer, or at least "better" for the cause.

It's definitely less-prevelent, though.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


latincanuck
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HA!

I am a competitive bastard....I don't even believe in believing in anything, either i know it or i don't, I don't believe in nothing baby Sticking out tongue The rest of ya are believers in something.....little believing wankers Laughing out loud


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I was researching wikipedia

I was researching wikipedia on what beyond reasonable doubt means and found some paper references...got one that wasnt that good but summarized some others...its kinda disturbing....

one paper in the 70's said jurors were repsonding with what ended up being probabilities between 70% and 74% of guilt....Another study when outright asking people what the probabilities of guilt should be 33% said 100 (which is impossible)....I assume the average was in the 90's....seems "reasonable" to me....

This paper was trying to say there should be a probability number that is given by law so we all will agree more and it will be more fair....but it is "probably" best that there isnt...its actually illegal for a judge to specify the probability of "certainty"...people are so bad at probabilities it would probably sway them in the wrong direction anyway....

And I dont think you can even estimate your "belief" number correctly even if you did know what the standard is....it would be more helpful to see a bunch of cases that were overturned...and some that were not....

in california it is defined as not mere possible doubt because everything relating to human affairs and depending on moral evidence is open to possible doubt...It is that state ofthe case which after the entire comparision and consideration ofall evidence leaves the minds of the jurors in that condition that they cannot say they feel an abiding conviction to a moral certainty of the truth of the charge.

Nebraska adds that a reasonable doubt is an actual and substantial doubt reasonably arising from evidence from the facts or circumstances shown by the evidence or from the lack of evidence on the part of the state as distinguished from doubt arising from mere possibility from bare imagination or from fanciful conjecture....

remember...in science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent."

Now, do we really "know" anything???


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Since atheism is the absence

Since atheism is the absence of an irrational belief in something I suppose it just doesn't lend itself to the same level of "one upmanship" that afflicts the religious mindset. Religion glories in difference in any case, the Jews might have coined the phrase but nearly all theism implies as a given that its followers are "chosen people". They are right and everyone else is wrong. Once that is taken on board then it's only logical that the same conclusions are drawn about individuals within the faith. Hierarchy is another common trait amongst religions, and hierarchy doesn't make sense unless it infers that those higher up in the organisation are better in some way than those below.

 

Atheists also believe they are right, but they're not competing in the same sport as the others anyway. They are beginning as they organise to show hints of a developing hierarchy in terms of vocalising opposition to religious fallacies, but since it's an "ism" that doesn't have any set of guiding principles beyond refusal to believe in superstitious crap, it will never emulate religions completely in terms of splitting hairs over who is doing it better than the rest.

 

I'm with Sam Harris on that score in any case - best to drop the term atheism if it is seen to imply just another belief system. Anyone who says therefore that they're a "better atheist than me" will simply receive my sympathy, and more importantly, will simply have advertised through their stupidity that their views aren't worth listening to. A built-in anti-bullshit mechanism that atheism benefits from and is completely absent from the mumbo-jumbo people!

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Atheism and irrational belief

I don't think atheism is against irrational belief, it's just non belief in supernatural deities/god(s). However one an atheist and still have irrational beliefs, like superstitions, walking under ladders, friday 13th, even many new agers, those dealing with positive thinking and positive energies etc, etc, etc to me are irrational beliefs, because there is no evidence that all of that works at all. However they can be atheists still. Atheism just simply a non belief in theism, many have shown to have irratoinal beliefs. Now a rational thinker goes against irrational beliefs Laughing out loud


EXC
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nigelTheBold wrote:I don't

nigelTheBold wrote:

I don't know. There've been a few folks who come in and proclaim, "RRS is a bunch of rude cultish bastards! You should be more like those of us over at richarddawkins.net. All hail Dawkins!"

 

I visited their forum one time they had a thread called 'God is a cunt'. I don't how we can't top that over here. 'God is Motherfucker' maybe? But, that's actually true if the Trinity doctrine is also true.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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An atheist who won't walk

An atheist who won't walk under ladders is just a person who has yet to extend the logic of his or her opposition to deity into other areas of superstition. But as you say, it doesn't invalidate their atheism in any way - though it does raise an interesting question regarding how on earth they managed to overcome their obvious potential to be irrational, draw the correct conclusions regarding that other big nest of irrational vipers, religion, and yet still buy into the little ones.

 

You're right too to say that atheism is simply an absence of belief in supernatural deities etc. But, and this website is one of the proofs of this, in the real world that means often taking an anti-establishment stance. In vocalising that stance the need arises to adopt from the beginning an anti-irrationality argument. It is unavoidable. In a perfect world atheism, being rational, would not even need to have a name. But as long as it does, and people describe themselves as such, it will be identified with an argument against the status quo where irrationality still reigns supreme.

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


EXC
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HisWillness wrote: I'm not

HisWillness wrote:

 I'm not sure if this is true or not, so you guys will have to help me out. I've noticed that one particularly annoying trait among believers is absent in us heathen swine: the competition to be the best believer. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are interpersonal contests between atheists, but I mean that "I'm being a better Christian/Jew/Muslim/Buddhist" tendency there is with groups organized around spiritual rituals.

From what I observed in Evangelical Christianity, the women compete with each other to be the biggest sexual prude. The men compete to act 'holy' and 'Christian' to impress the women.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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There are also atheists that

There are also atheists that buy into non-superstitious pseudoscientific garbage - such as psychics and bad pseudo-medical scams.

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Actually I have seen

Actually I have seen atheists get competitive over who knows more science, similar to how one christian might say they're better because they know more about the bible. On this site though people usually just try to help you learn rather than just compete to see who knows more.

Actually just before school got out two friends of mine got into a very heated debate over who was smarter based on GPAs and ACT scores. I told them they were clearly both idiots.

 

"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan


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I'm going to go out on a

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that atheists are at least as competitive as theists.  If anything, I would expect more competition because there are theists who believe they don't have to do anything because God will give them everything they need.  Atheists know it's all up to them.

 {EDIT:  Whoops... forgot to finish my point.  I think there are definitely atheists who try to be "more atheist" than the other guy.  Just like theism, I think it's not so much about the belief or lack of belief, but the personality of the person holding or not holding the belief.}

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote:I'm going

Hambydammit wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that atheists are at least as competitive as theists.  If anything, I would expect more competition because there are theists who believe they don't have to do anything because God will give them everything they need.  Atheists know it's all up to them.

 {EDIT:  Whoops... forgot to finish my point.  I think there are definitely atheists who try to be "more atheist" than the other guy.  Just like theism, I think it's not so much about the belief or lack of belief, but the personality of the person holding or not holding the belief.}

 

TO be real Hamby, your atheism isn't nearly  as strong as my atheism.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Maybe that's why so many

Maybe that's why so many theists spell it "athiest?"


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HeyZeusCreaseToe

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that atheists are at least as competitive as theists.  If anything, I would expect more competition because there are theists who believe they don't have to do anything because God will give them everything they need.  Atheists know it's all up to them.

 {EDIT:  Whoops... forgot to finish my point.  I think there are definitely atheists who try to be "more atheist" than the other guy.  Just like theism, I think it's not so much about the belief or lack of belief, but the personality of the person holding or not holding the belief.}

 

TO be real Hamby, your atheism isn't nearly  as strong as my atheism.

You def aren't the same kind of true unbeliever as me, HeyZeusCreaseToe.

KK thx.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


HisWillness
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

TO be real Hamby, your atheism isn't nearly  as strong as my atheism.

You def aren't the same kind of true unbeliever as me, HeyZeusCreaseToe.

KK thx.

I guess what I was originally saying is that I'm the unbelieverest, and all y'all can only be pretenderating. 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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xoutlier2 wrote:Now, do we

xoutlier2 wrote:

Now, do we really "know" anything???

Sure ... within a reasonable degree of error.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


latincanuck
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Ha

I said it first therefore I am more of an unbeliever than u


HisWillness
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latincanuck wrote:I said it

latincanuck wrote:

I said it first therefore I am more of an unbeliever than u

You are merely the faster, and therefore less pensive unbeliever. My un-fu is the greatest!

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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You are all

You are all lowly apostates; I am not.

 

 

 


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Guess you can't pull a No

Guess you can't pull a No True Scotsman when you don't believe in Scotmans to begin with.

aiia wrote:

You are all lowly apostates; I am not.

I disagree.As I escaped from fundamentalism and brainwashing,cleary my atheism is stronger than yours.

No True Non Existent Scotman?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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Loc wrote:Guess you can't

Loc wrote:

Guess you can't pull a No True Scotsman when you don't believe in Scotmans to begin with.

aiia wrote:

You are all lowly apostates; I am not.

I disagree.As I escaped from fundamentalism and brainwashing,cleary my atheism is stronger than yours.

No True Non Existent Scotman?

However, you did at one time commit the unpardonable wickedness of lasping into a state of belief.

 Therefore I am the atheistest

 

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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HisWillness wrote: I guess

HisWillness wrote:

 

I guess what I was originally saying is that I'm the unbelieverest, and all y'all can only be pretenderating. 

  Hey Will, that's a pretty good imifitation of president Bush's speech patterns.  See what an Ivy League edumacation can do for you ?


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xoutlier2 wrote:I was

xoutlier2 wrote:

I was researching wikipedia on what beyond reasonable doubt means and found some paper references...got one that wasnt that good but summarized some others...its kinda disturbing....

one paper in the 70's said jurors were repsonding with what ended up being probabilities between 70% and 74% of guilt....Another study when outright asking people what the probabilities of guilt should be 33% said 100 (which is impossible)....I assume the average was in the 90's....seems "reasonable" to me....

 

There is an excellent movie called 'Twelve Angry Men' (there are two versions, original and remake) that focuses on the concept of reasonable doubt. Basically it is about 12 jurors in the jury room trying to come to a unaminous verdict, it starts with 11 of them voting guilty and the remaining 1 voting not guilty.

 

It also shows how some jurors will base their decisions on their beliefs, racism, just getting it over and done with, etc.

 

It is a very thought provoking movie.

 

: Freedom - The opportunity to have responsibility.

: Liberty is about protecting the right of others to disagree with you.

 


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HisWillness wrote:I could be

HisWillness wrote:

I could be wrong, but the absence of that type of upstaging is pretty nice.

With atheist men, at least, it simply comes down to who has the biggest penis. And that can be determined quite accurately and concretely right now with the assistance of a good ruler (or a yardstick, in my case). Christians have to die first before they find out who wins.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?