Nightmares About the Future

Kevin R Brown
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Nightmares About the Future

...I have the mot vivid and terrible visions of the world circa 2015-2018 in my sleep, sometimes. I think that's what actually spurs me on to be active in speaking-up about certain issues, sometimes.

I see Edmonton as a 'former glory' broken heap of what was once a city. People walk around smiling, pretending like everything's alirght and 'toomorrow'll be a new day', leaning on whatever crutches of comfort they can while civilization unravels. Commodity and housing prices escalated to the point where they simply broke the system - people started to simply defiantly take food from grocers to feed their families and/or barricaded themselves in their homes. With the police over-extended dealing with the disorder, organized criminal bodies stepped-in to seize control, violently cutting-up the city into different zones of protection, religious and ethnic fervor adding to the momentum of an already out-of-control death spiral.

Pretty soon almost everyone is trying to make it by in makeshift shelters or fortified homes / overtaken businesses. Where the military has tried stepping-in, civil war is raging hot and heavy. Then winter is setting in, and people are still smiling stupidly, even as temperatures drop below forty degrees and they begin freezing to death en masse...

 

Maybe I've read too much Vonnegut and naysaying from economists. Frankly, though... informed positive outlooks are hard to find.

 

Anyone else have these kind of bad dreams? Care to share them?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:We have

Kevin R Brown wrote:

We have a base attached to the city. Even assuming we were 'all out of oil' (I doubt we would reach this stage before panic started to turn the wheels of martial law), simply marching the boys into the city would be no difficult task.

It's not about being all out of oil, it's about being all out of interest in staying in places that can't support life. Ever walked through a ghost town? Like an old gold-mining town, I mean. People don't stay where they can't survive.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Moreover, I shudder at the notion that no federal intervention would be attempted at all. Nobody to offer assistance against the approaching storm?

That's a terrifying thought.

But it won't be a storm. Just imagine if everything costed roughly 10 times as much as it does now. Then figure out how you're going to live.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
It depends on the times and places, Will. Look at Katrina: [...] It was ugly.

I agree, there will be a huge amount of misery. I just don't think anyone on this forum, or anyone who can think about it rationally will be left high-and-dry because we'll be psychologically prepared, and that gives us a huge advantage.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
The last thing in the world that I'd trust is the idea that these persons would let their lifestyle go silently into that goodnight.

Really? Those tough guys are usually the first ones to fold to real pressure. They stay in denial longer, say they have a high pain threshold in emergency rooms (and you know what THAT means - give them morphine, they're going to cry) and don't have the balls to ask their boss for a raise, much less start some real shit. Sure there will be an angry mob here and there, but with no focus to their anger, there's no revolution.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
I'll never underestimate the human ability to invent new and better ways to kill each other, even in the absence of oil. Horses make excellent artillery tows [...]

But you're ignoring the fact that artillery and bombs must be manufactured and transported. None of that was possible before oil (it only just started with coal). It wasn't our ingenuity that created this situation, it was available chemical energy in the form of fossil fuels.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
The last part I agree with, the first I don't. science and industry are married - one has always been a part of the other. You're claiming that science will flourish outside the shadow of technology and government? I say that's proposterous. history teaches us that this is very far from the truth.

History teaches us that science was started by aristocrats. It's only the post-1950s white-labcoat-and-glasses science that's married to industry.

Don't get me wrong, I think that in Canada, we're going to get along fine. Look at winters - when people's cars are stuck in the snow in the city, don't you see three or four guys just drop what they're doing and go help? It's certainly that way in Toronto, and I can't imagine it's any different in Edmonton. Maybe it is, but that culture should thrive in difficult circumstances.

But no, there won't be as many people. Whether that's lower birth rates or flat-out starvation remains to be seen. Just stick to the idea that everything will cost 10 times what it does now, and you'll be able to figure your odds.

 

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Kevin R Brown wrote:In the

Kevin R Brown wrote:
In the absense of farming machinery? When we're out using plows, horses and pitchforks, have no means of enriching soil or planting higher-yield crops (because they're no longer in development).

I think manure will still be in development (NOT a metaphor) and legumes will still be in development as nitrogen-binding agents in the soil.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Yes, Will. What I said is extremely accurate. Especially up here. Read up on agricultural history. You're looking at 16-ish or so hour days in the field sewing and reaping, every day of the week, both to ensure everybody is fed and to ensure you have enough food to keep everyone fed when the climate harshens. And note that not everyone in the supposed community would be capable of evenly contributing (the elderly? the infants?).

Considering that there were, in fact, bankers, lawyers, cabinetmakers and aristocrats before coal and oil, and only 50% of the population was able to feed the other half, a small farming community could probably make it. Masonry, carpentry, blacksmithing, and other trades would still be required within a region.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
Oh, not everyone will be fed. For instance, those who aren't interested in shovelling manure and clearing rocks.

And such people (and their friends/families) would simply let themselves starve to death?

There's my dry sense of humour that doesn't translate well into text. Obviously not everyone in a community has to farm. Will there be enough food to feed everyone in the world? Nope. And yes, there will be lots of starvation.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Quote:
Whatever did we do before farm machinery? Hmm ..

Check the population figures, post green revolution. There were significantly less people to feed at that time.

India will be the worst hit. They were "saved" by the green revolution. Of course, by "saved", I mean "set up for unprecedented disaster".

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Also see: Dust Bowls. We did incredible, unsustainable damage in agricultural regions through our farming practices. Yields were so low that we had to farm much larger surface areas, which meant clearing-out a lot of vegetation and trees, which meant destabilizing topsoil...

True. We should probably rotate the crops. Even the Romans did that.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Without the oil supply to meet agricultural demands, we'll be looking at mass starvation. When that occurs, I'll bet top dollar that status quo and the illusion of cooperation will shatter, and people will be at each other's throats.

Sure they will, they just won't be able to get those tanks a-rollin' like they used to.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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deludedgod wrote:Yes,

deludedgod wrote:

Yes, Will?

That was meant to be a response of applause. Now that I've edited in the orginally intended sound, I feel as though I've lost the comic timing, but truthfully, I practically cried after reading your comment. I couldn't agree more.

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Ken G. wrote: I think that

Ken G. wrote:

 I think that the next group of Humans to go to the gas chambers,will be Atheist/Agnostics ,which is one of the main reason's why we must organize.

That's interesting, Christians thinks the same, just with beheading, instead of gas chambers.

Anyway, in the age of nuclear weapons and other nasty stuff of mass destruction, long-term supplies are a nonsense. I've read somewhere, that USA has great supplies of goods like metals, food, medicine, and so on, in secret storages under mountains, like Rockies, for example. It's there for a case of long war, which is in these times not very probable. It should be rather used for removing poverty in the world, this would remove the real possible cause of any future war. Current tension in the world is, because the rich parades in their wealth in front of the poor, and that pisses them off really a lot.


 

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Yes Luminon, Rockies are an

Yes Luminon, Rockies are an example of mountains.


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Underground Storage

 Luminon wrote about all of this material that has been stored in underground Mountain in the Rockies,Well you better believe that all of that food , medicine, generators and living quarter's is not open to regular citizen, No f<>king way.That is there for only a very select group of people,Shit they (the government) has huge underground cities near military bases in the States,not to mention that we have over 730 military bases around the World,And none of this is some kind of conspiracy,read "Chalmers Johnson's trilogy,Blowback,Sorrows of Empire and Nemesis"he was a US diplomat in Japan,so I would say that he's been privy to a lot of top secret material,so wake-up and smell the coffee.

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Ken G. wrote:Luminon wrote

Ken G. wrote:

Luminon wrote about all of this material that has been stored in underground Mountain in the Rockies,

No, Luminom mentioned the Rockies as an example of mountains - about the only sane and factual assertion he has managed as far as I can see in the few months I've been perusing these threads.

 

Ken G. wrote:

Well you better believe that all of that food , medicine, generators and living quarter's is not open to regular citizen, No f<>king way.That is there for only a very select group of people,

And rightly so. Those that constitute a resource drain, for example (the mad, bad and thick) have no business availing of someone else's foresight. Let's face it - they don't even do hindsight too good.

 

Ken G. wrote:

Shit they (the government) has huge underground cities near military bases in the States,not to mention that we have over 730 military bases around the World,

Each one with an underground city attached? Seems "we" or "they" (make up your mind) have made room for you thickies after all! So, panic over and stop whining.

 

Ken G. wrote:

And none of this is some kind of conspiracy,read "Chalmers Johnson's trilogy,Blowback,Sorrows of Empire and Nemesis"he was a US diplomat in Japan,so I would say that he's been privy to a lot of top secret material,so wake-up and smell the coffee

Johnson, whose work I admire, is an academic specialising in political economy and specialising further in Asian political studies. His deductions concerning the growth of American militarism are based not on being privy to top secret material, as you would like to think, but on intelligent observation of events. His primary concern at the current time is not exposing conspiracy (since the mechanics are transparent) but what he considers an overt corruption of democracy in line with a policy he calls "Military Keynesianism". A serious development in recent years, yes, but not something that cannot be reversed - his whole point. If you want fuel to feed your doomsdayism you'd better look elsewhere. If you're willing to stop bleating about how we're all doomed and it's the end of the world, but instead get up off your butt and actually do something to restore republican democracy, then Johnson is your man for information and advice.

 

There is one thing however that I am sure Johnson would agree with both you and Luminom - the Rockies are indeed mountains.

 

 

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Doomdayism

  Nordman wrote that I believe that we have  underground cities below all of our military bases -NOT - and who the F<>K is whining ,NOT ME -The shit has already hit the fan.And if you read Chalmers Johsons work correctly you can plainly see that he has had access to ,lets say material that most of us don't even knows exist(As I would like to think),and on"Military Keynesian ism" which is a term that was coined by a Polish economist in exile "Micha Kalecki" to explain Nazi Germany success in overcoming the Great Depression and achieving full employment,and his whole point is that ,Yes it can be reversed,but in order for that to happen,the system must collapse, and  be rebuilt .That's why he is looking for a differant country to live with his wife and cat !!! and if you need any other evidence check out www.americanempireproject.com

 

 

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Ok, you're not whining.

Ok, you're not whining. You're saying the shit has already hit the fan so we're all doomed, man. You're right - that's worse than whining. It's pessimistic inertia, making you an appendage to the world you live in, not an actor.

 

I was not aware that I had failed to read Johnson's books correctly. I began at the beginning and read through to the end of each one, I held them the right way up throughout, and I comprehended all his words - even the big ones. I did not say that he coined the term "Military Keynesianism", though he is the contemporary author who is most fond of citing it.

 

Thanks for the reference to the website, one that I've had occasion to review before. As a publishing venture I wholeheartedly concur with their ethos, direction and much of what they have published so far. Why however its content should turn me into the same level of gibbering doomsaying wreck as yourself is beyond me. There are other internet sources by the way which also link to similar material more thoroughly presented and with excellent bibliographies to further educate yourself about the threat to democracy and what you as an individual can do to counter it.

 

Relax, take a deep breath, inform and concentrate your mind, elevate your butt and get out there and make a difference. AND STOP WHINI--- oops, sorry. Stop being such a silly little appendage, you excitable thing you! 

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Relax

 

 


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  Appendage

  Nordman wrote: OK,your not whining,you're saying that the shit has already hit the fan and that we're all doomed,that's worse than whining,it's pessimistic inertia,making you an appendage to the world that you live in,not an actor.(WRONG) I'm a cautious optimistic,and trying to label someone as an appendage to the world that I live in,and not an actor(seems pretty rude to me) And as for reading Johnson's books correctly,I would suggest that you re-read NEMESIS,and on pages 268-269-270 he, not me, points out and I quote "Could the people themselves restore constitutional government? A grassroots movement to abolish the CIA,break the hold of the military industrial complex,and establish public financing of elections may be theoretically conceivable but is unlikely given the conglomerate control of the mass media and the difficulties of mobilizing our large diffuse population.(and then he goes on to say),it is also possible that,at some future moment,the U.S. military could actually take over the government and declare a dictatorship.That is how the Roman Republic ended.But I think it unlikely that the military will go that route.(and then he quotes-Anatol Lieven ,author of "American Right or Wrong:An Anatomy of American Nationalism,concludes"U.S.global power as presently conceived by the overwhelming majority of the U.S. establishment,is unsustainable...the empire can no longer raise enough taxes or soldiers,it is increasingly indebted,and the key vassal states are no longer reliable...the result is that the empire can no longer pay for enough of the professional troops it needs to full fill its self assumed"imperial tasks"(and also I'm glad to hear that you can not only read a book from the beginning through to the end,but that you can also comprehend even the big words.) and then for you to assume that I have some how turned into a gibbering doom saying wreck and then to see yourself as some kind of "Enlightened Warrior" going thru the threads and calling people rude and demeaning names is beyond me.And as the other Internet sources that link with similar material more thoroughly so I can educate myself about the threat to democracy and what one can do to counter it. Well I guess that in many ways I do see thing's quite differant than most people due to my own personal experience and by reading people like "Noam Chomsky,Howard Zinn,Michael Parenti and of course Amy Goodman who is working very hard to broadcast "Democracy Now!" a show that I've been watching for over 10 years,Ah  today's show was a reading of Howard Zinn"s book "A People History of the United States" and  I can't forget  "John Perkins;Confession of an Economic Hit Man" along with  other authors like "Jared Diamond's Guns ,Germs and Steel"and "Collapse" along with Felipe Fernandez-Armesto book "Civilizations and Brian Fagan "Floods,Famines and Empires.and I almost forgot sit back and relax,inform and concentrate "Your" mind and stop being silly .

 

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Nordmann wrote:Yes Luminon,

Nordmann wrote:

Yes Luminon, Rockies are an example of mountains.
...
There is one thing however that I am sure Johnson would agree with both you and Luminom - the Rockies are indeed mountains.

 

The subject of that sentence were a storages of goods for american elite. I mentioned Rockies as one of places where such storages are, so it's emphasized that they're in
1) mountains
2) rather big mountains like Rockies, not like these mostly under 1000 m, as some of us has almost in their backyard.
I really don't know why do you think I meant that sentence like it would came right from Sesame Street, but probably you're just trying to be rude. Stop furiously waving that sword around and eating too much of red amanitas. Maybe a few of the green ones would calm you down a little Smiling

Who's whinning? This is, how it is. We can just get known with what's happening in the world and throw away the fear. When we're not afraid of them (you know who I mean...THEM!), we're starting to be out of control. This is the purpose of Hell and disasterous evening news, to scare people so they soften up to any influence.  But we're growing out of that habit. When a good example shows up, hundreds of millions of us will go for it. We already disagree with what is happening in the world, if a real alternative shows up, the unhappiness of masses will become their stimulus to change the world. Such an alternative may only be seen by wide public when something system-breaking occurs, like a very probable massive stock market breakdown. Worldwide, if possible. But such a cultural movement must be initiated by example, not only words. (to have an ideal is nice, but to make it come true is even nicer, and completely different thing)

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Dreaming

  FulltimeDefendent Loves these Dreams;Yes indeed ,Have you ever listen to "The Freewheelin Bob Dylan album with song's like "Masters of War, Talkin'World War III Blues. A really good album.

 

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Luminon wrote:. . .Who's

Luminon wrote:

. . .

Who's whinning? This is, how it is. We can just get known with what's happening in the world and throw away the fear. When we're not afraid of them (you know who I mean...THEM!)

. . .

I dunno man, I know a lot of "THEMs." Which them are you referring to? And don't say "The Man," 'cause I'm The Man and you're The Man, and etc.


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inspectormustard wrote:

inspectormustard wrote:
Luminon wrote:
. . .

Who's whinning? This is, how it is. We can just get known with what's happening in the world and throw away the fear. When we're not afraid of them (you know who I mean...THEM!) . . .

I dunno man, I know a lot of "THEMs." Which them are you referring to? And don't say "The Man," 'cause I'm The Man and you're The Man, and etc.

That was meant to have ironic, conspirative sounding Smiling I should add some emoticons to it. But it seems you get it. There is a crime of separation, that people don't feel not know what you describe here, they don't feel the unity, and that allows them to perform a head-hunting attacks on a neighbouring tribe, or a country on the other side of world.
For example, I'm definitely not a racist, but I surely have an uneasy feeling if I see a group of younger members of Roma ethnic minority of dark complexion, and I suddenly recall some of stories from their notoric reputation...for example, if I exaggerate, a general motive in such gossips is "you happen to offend one by not letting yourself be pickpocketed and then all of them will find you and beat the c*ap out of you and take your phone, wallet, mp3 player and anal virginity". It's not really that bad, also I've almost never seen a such group of them (mainly friends who goes more to distant pubs), but the feeling remains. I've got to calm down these bits of emotions rationally, that if I would see into their minds, I would find a similar, normal person like everyone else and I would be seen as a big, bad, rich, heartless, police-protected 'gadjo' (something like white devil, pale face, bwana kubwa, and so on).
This my anxiety probably has an origin at school, when Roma schoolmates (only two in total, fortunately) had problems at home, that parents ignored them, had an alcohol problem, or tried to beat a reason into their heads (yeah, I saw the hand imprint on a face sometimes) and that certainly didn't make them good classmates. Children would really need a psychologic courses to understand, for example, that when a classmate behaves like the greatest ass ever, it's an inner calling for help, attention, and retreat from awful things at home. Before such facts finally managed it into my mind (which was too late), I got into a few of ugly fights.

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How can a person with so

How can a person with so little regard for syntax have any regard for the poor unfortunates he expects to wade through his "ripostses"?

 

First principles, Luminon. Learn to speak, and then learn how to have something to say.

 

Go to bed and sleep it off.

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Nordmann wrote:How can a

Nordmann wrote:

How can a person with so little regard for syntax have any regard for the poor unfortunates he expects to wade through his "ripostses"?

You're free to point out syntax errors in my text, for example by a personal message. It's been a while since I was at school lesson of english, I'm mainly a self-learned person, by reading, and playing computer games. So far, nobody complained as much as you, I don't mind it if you'd be more specific... 
I value the unwritten etiquette of an internet forum, that people has to read someone's posts, if they want to respond. Thanks all, who read them, I try to make them interesting as I can.
I suspect that I sub-consciously emulate a syntax from my national language into english. Maybe I even emulate a syntax from some english books I had read recently.  You're quite right about that sleep, my work didn't allow me to get much sleep in last days, but what pisses you off so much, that you had to emphasize it also on the other topic? Take it easy, I didn't eat your lunch.

 

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Luminon wrote syntzax:

Luminon wrote about how this Nordmann "CHARACTER" likes to point out the mistakes that non-professional writer makes when writing a post. Syntax-Symtax,the guy is a real ...,what does he think this is the "New York Times or the Washington Post",as they say "He Got Issues".What more can I say ?.

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I never meant to imply that

I never meant to imply that Luminon was guilty simply of writing bad English. I meant to imply that he's talking shite - in any language, however badly expressed.

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And just in case you (and

And just in case you (and he) miss the whole point of why I say it - consider this:

 

If a community, out of some misguided or exaggerated concept of respect, allows the rantings of irrational lunatics to appear to carry as much right to expression and cause for reflection as the considered opinion of rational people, where does it lead?

 

The next time you hear church bells calling the flock to worship invisible men in the sky, or the next time you find yet another civil liberty removed at the behest of individuals who believe they are on the point of being assumed into heaven by some celestial Scotty in control of a divine transporter room, or the next time a child turns to her rational parents and admonishes them for failing to believe in the "baby god" she has "learnt" about in school, then attempt to answer the question above.

 

Maybe then you too will see why rational people have a duty to point out and oppose all forms of lunacy masquerading as valid thought and reason. Every unopposed piece of crapology put forward as an article of belief, however lunatic it might be, is a brick in the defences of religion. There are no exceptions.

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Nordman wrote;in case you mised the point

  Well ,I guess that I did miss the point ,Your point is very,very Rational,point well taken .


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Nordmann wrote: If a

Nordmann wrote:
If a community, out of some misguided or exaggerated concept of respect, allows the rantings of irrational lunatics to appear to carry as much right to expression and cause for reflection as the considered opinion of rational people, where does it lead?

You probably misunderstood a function of rationality. It's not meant to make people agree with each other, it has no means to do so, it's just a specific, valid way of working with facts which are present to a rational person. Mutual agreement can't be sure, just as you can't be sure, that a law system will punish only guilty people and not the innocent.

The reason, why any number of strictly rational people might not get to the same conclusions, is simply in different amount of facts they can use for logical assumption. If someone has less or more facts than someone else, both conclusions may be rational, and in the same time, different, or even opposite and mutually exclusive.
If these both sides would know exactly the same input facts (or all facts in the universe) the conclusions should be identic, otherwise there is no guarantee.
I hope you don't expect everyone rational to hold your stance, considering them otherwise as irrational people. I've checked the Wikipedia article about rationality and I see I'm not astray from the criteria of rationality. I must work rationally with all facts which gets to me, no matter if it makes me look irrational, because of a nature of these facts. Definition of rationality doesn't speak about what is culturally acceptable to be rational or irrational about.
 

Nordmann wrote:
The next time you hear church bells calling the flock to worship invisible men in the sky, or the next time you find yet another civil liberty removed at the behest of individuals who believe they are on the point of being assumed into heaven by some celestial Scotty in control of a divine transporter room, or the next time a child turns to her rational parents and admonishes them for failing to believe in the "baby god" she has "learnt" about in school, then attempt to answer the question above.
God is just as good as people themselves, too bad that theists carry their notion of God from ancient middle-east. You can't suppress ranting of lunatics, you may just treat people well enough so they won't be afraid of the lunatics' angry God, nor lusting for that God's eternal garden of pleasures. If a majority of people isn't immune against that emotional crap of imaginary sugar and whip, the vengful dividing of people on good and bad, then let's hope a coming conflict will be resolved in a civilized way.

Nordmann wrote:
Maybe then you too will see why rational people have a duty to point out and oppose all forms of lunacy masquerading as valid thought and reason. Every unopposed piece of crapology put forward as an article of belief, however lunatic it might be, is a brick in the defences of religion. There are no exceptions.
Yeah, a world divided on black and white, the sinful and the saved, Satan and God, the faithful and the unbelievers, right and wrong, WE good and THEY bad, hey man, really you have to copy the worst things on religion?
That glorified rationality is only one of multiple qualities people should acquire, one after another. It's not the beginning, nor the end of everything. It's better than being irrational, but  it's no excuse for comfortable stagnation in thinking that you will be always right, when you're rational. There are no guarantees.

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You are a fool, and that is

You are a fool, and that is not a crime normally. But your foolishness, when it is seen to be accepted within a community, is taken by theists to mean that their foolishness is acceptable, and therefore - to them - not even foolishness.

 

That is why I have no problem with calling you a fool - your latest post confirms this - and, whether your intelligence allows you to see it or not, your foolishness is a danger to the potential success of rationality.

 

Your right to be stupid is not something I would quibble with, but your assumed right to pretend your lunacy should, by association, be deemed rational is something I not only object to but actively oppose. Thank you for confirming, in your latest post, that I am right.

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy