Marjoe - how God is "felt"

Archeopteryx
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Marjoe - how God is "felt"

A blurb on a nifty video I just watched last night:

 

I've been an Atheist for a while now, so it baffles me that I'd never heard of the documentary film "Marjoe" before this week. It's a documentary film shot in the 70s that was a miniature exposé on big time religion. I'm sure it had a much larger shock factor then. It can't compare with the audacity of the four horsemen, but I kinda liked it. (Though it is VERY SLOW PACED).

Basically, Marjoe was a famous child preacher, leading congregations since he was 4 years old. In the film, he describes how his parents "trained" him to be an effective preacher. He never believed in God or in the religion he preached, but he was a successful preacher because he "understood the gimmick".

Marjoe doesn't spend a lot of time talking in the film. He mostly shows footage of his sermons so that you can see the things he is doing and how it effects the audience. Basically, he's demonstrating that preachers are doing the same thing as rock stars, which is the high he gets from preaching (since he doesn't actually practice what he preaches).

He points out very small things that are common sense when you hear them. But having been raised by Pentecostal parents, it was really cool to see the man playing the Pentecostal preacher discuss his acting routine. (Not that all preachers are acting or think of it as acting. He asserts---and I agree---that even the congregation is "putting on a play" to a certain extent.)

The most interesting things to watch were his methods for affecting people. He shows that tone of voice matters. Confidence matters. If someone asks you if you're saved, he says, you can't hesitate. You can't say "Huh? Oh. Yeah." You can't simply say, "Yes". You have to look them hard in the eye, squeeze their hand tight, shake it vigorously, and say something like "You bet your life, brother. I'm washed in the same blood as you." The use of "blood" and language that suggests sameness are important. This affects people.

He talks about the gestures he uses while preaching. When he says the word Jesus, he might throw his arms open wide in a grand gesture, opening his chest to the congregation. When he mentions the devil or satan or hellfire, he leans forward, points his finger, makes a challenging gesture. It affects people.

He talks about using poetic language, especially antithesis and alliteration, and the use of cadence. He rattles off a long series of examples. I'll quote his example spiel for you: (throughout the spiel he speaks in pairs of antithetical rhyming phrases. The first is always spoken in a high tone, the second in a low tone, establishing a rhythm to go with the rhyme.)

"For seven years I was a heroine addict! A pill dropper! An LSD tripper! High risin' and low slidin'! Bustin' heads and poppin' reds! Settin' fires and slashin' tires! But then I met a man who was hung up for my hang ups!" etc. It affects people.

He even talks about the good crazy stuff. How do you make a person faint or collapse by laying your hand on their forehead? Easy. It's all about the build-up. You single them out and stand them up in front of hundreds of people. You tell them God is about to touch them. Don't just tell them. Exclaim it. Yell it at them. Ask them if they're ready several times, more vigorously each time. Ask the audience if they believe the person is about to be touched. Build it up until there is an expectation. The person to be touched is on the edge of their spiritual seat. Then, you do not simply lay your hand on the forehead. You turn, very suddenly, very spontaneously, and you press your palm firmly into their head, even shaking or rocking their head as you do so. The special circumstances and the build-up make the action a shock and a sudden release of tension. For some it causes fainting or collapse, and for many others it's simply a jolt of... something. How can they deny that they were jolted? It affected them.

He mentions speaking in tongues. It is just gibberish after all. There are a few who know it's fake, and they use it to show how incredibly holy and close to God they supposedly are. A person sitting in the congregation might think, "Wow, he speaks in tongues. I've never spoken in tongues. He must be far closer to God than I am." This makes them want to try harder, maybe. To follow that person's example. Other people speak in tongues when they don't know it's fake. This is accomplished by a group of people, perhaps three or more, who do speak in tongues (knowing it's fake or not) surrounding a person and "speaking in tongues" (read: talking gibberish) at the target somewhat violently. They might press the person to "talk to Jesus", to "let it out", to "set the spirit free" and so on. It puts a heavy load of pressure on the person to speak in tongues under the guise that it is doing no such thing. Consequently, the person will listen to what the other tongue-speakers are doing and will, in a moment of submission, start producing the same gibberish sounds. The other tongue speakers rejoice. This not only instantly relieves the pressure on the target, but it earns them highly positive feedback, which gives them a jolt of something nice. They just learned how to speak gibberish while believing it's not gibberish. (Gibberish doesn't "feel like" anything.) It affected them.

I especially liked the parts of the video where he showed how to ask for money. Talking about sin, hell, and calling for an examination of the spirit is key before you collect money. It doesn't have to be over-the-top scary stuff. Just get them wondering where they stand. I liked how he said things like, "Reach into your pocket and take out the largest bill you have. If that billl is a 10, you can give that 10. If the largest bill you have is a 5 or 1, that's all that God wants from you." It's clever how he asks for the largest bill they have while turning around and indirectly suggesting that the smaller bills are "good enough". No mention of the 50s or the 100s. It doubtfully works on everyone all the time, but I'm sure it works enough for a new car.

None of this is to say that this was the best "atheism video/movie" I've ever seen. Most would probably find it kind of boring, since 2/3 of it is just watching him in action in front of a congregation (i.e. watching church). But it's cooler to watch anything when you have some insight into how it works.

 

In closing, hello again, Rationalites. I've been MIA for a while, but no worries: I haven't gone the way of God, if you know what I mean. Eye-wink

 

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Isn't this child Marjoe

Isn't this child Marjoe Gortner, who later became an actor and starred in films like "Earthquake"?


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Wow , watching clips now ,

Wow , watching clips now , ain't that telling ! Kill religion , I meant dogma , NO BOTH !

                                

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Marjoe&hl=en&sitesearch=#

 

  


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That was interesting. I've

That was interesting. I've always been a little puzzled with what to make of spiritual slaying and tongues.It is undoubtfully a powerful tool in getting people to believe.And we all know how hard the argument from personal experience is to argue against.

Tongues was a tough point for me as a christian. I could never do it, no matter how hard I tried and prayed.My friend could turn it on and off at will. I had been taught you can only talk in tongues after being baptised,which I never was.I suspect it was this mental block that kept me from doing it, not a lack of faith from me. I was still pretty sore at god sometimes for not letting me do it. Looking back, maybe I was secretly too rational even then to babble nonsense.

I need to read more of these kind of things.I still have difficulty believeing a pastor could willfully deceive people.I was taught to trust them explicitly.I can't deny that all the things described are con man work.

There's a small church near me I used to attend. It is small even by our standards, but pulsing. It is a pentecostal church, complete with tongues, falling people, demon manifestations(alegedly) and more. I loved it when I was christian.Drank it up. The pastor is everything describied here. Incredibly charismic and alive. He can get a room full of people to do anything, and get them to enjoy it and enjoy handing over their money.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Thanks for that

Thanks for that Archeopteryx, it was quite interesting. Religion requires an entirely different way of thinking, based on emotions and "feelings". If it feels good, or intense, it must be god!

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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I went to a xtian college my

I went to a xtian college my sophomore year.  They gave classes on dramatic speaking for would-be preachers, evangelists.  They showed you how to use voice inflection, dramatic build-up, rhyming patterns, emotiional pleas, etc.

Basically, nearly everything that's in the Marjoe video (just dressed up to try and make it look respectable).

And then there was the "clapper".  He's the guy who cues the audience when to clap and shout "praise god" or "Amen" or other mindless crap when they are taping a xtian tv show..

Apparently even an omnipotent creator needs a helping hand once in a while.

" Sow a seed on your Mastercard, your Visa or your American Express, and then when you do, expect God to open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing."
 

 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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Hey, Arkey! Good to see you

Hey, Arkey! Good to see you again.

I've always sort of wondered about that -- how "complicit" the crowd is in the act.  That jives with my feeling about how frequently people lie to themselves, especially when they're being "watched" by other group members.

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Jello wrote:Thanks for that

Jello wrote:

Thanks for that Archeopteryx, it was quite interesting. Religion requires an entirely different way of thinking, based on emotions and "feelings". If it feels good, or intense, it must be god!

Exactly, good remark. Emotional stuff is the best recognizing sign for deceiving ideologies, either false or "sincirely" meant. We've got here "UFO contacters" who puts stickers around in the town, that extraterrestrials (who particularly, names, images, descriptions, mostly stuff stolen from Eduard B. Meyer) in their ships and motherships (with names) fights a great war against some "dark worlds" which are full of reptiloids portrayed at sitting in black capes with hoods in front of computers, working as programmers, who prepares negative programs for individual people, which are afterwards broadcasted right into people's minds through another broadcasting techics in the underground of the Moon. They also prepare a control of all people through chips and satellites... ( as a guy who studied chips, programming, electronics and radiotechics, I'm highly sceptic to that, lol )
Anyway, they don't really fight. They're so loving and peaceful, that their fleet of 10 000 000 ships will be rather used as a propagative argument among humans, and a potential evacuation fleet, than for being equipped with big lasers to wipe out these dark worlds off star maps. I really don't get why the dark worlds (whole planets!) are so obsessed with this small planet, and so are the millions of the good extraterrestrials' ships. Can't they stop dragging us into their own problems? Don't the reptiloids on the "dark worlds" have anything better to do, than to control 90% of earth's individuals? Like alien sex, alien sport, alien music, alien games, alien booze...they're like retirees, obsessed with lives of soap opera characters.
The friendly extraterrestrials, led by Ashtar Sheran, are all portrayed with bright and saturated colors, full of shine, glow and stars, heart symbols everywhere, words of love, humility, friendship... but nothing what would really demand us to use that spongey thing inside of our head. It's purely focused on emotions. Though it's oversweeted and delusional as hell, they have enough of joyful members.

In my opinion, fundie religion and demonic cultism is pretty much the same thing. It uses the same brain centers (or not uses), it involves the same planes of existence (emotional) to be focused on, just the words are different. Man-made God is unfortunately not so illusory, the emotional energy doesn't get lost in this small universe, it returns to the believers and creates a positive feedback to influence their thinking further. This process may get a life of it's own, so it's even more diffcult  to get out of such a cult.
Not everyone has such an influence as Marjoe. You can call it an acting talent, or a power of personality, but it can't be taught nor inherited. It's the same power artists uses for art, politics before elections and businessmen for business. It's a quality of that person's consciousness. And, I have to emphasize, there is no sky daddy to watch over such people if they use their influence only for good things. There are only possible consequences of their actions. I think it's better now that Marjoe became an actor, the less of such people in religion, the better. For a sake of harmonic equilibrium, it's overgrown, it doesn't need to grow more, it grew for past 3000 years!

However emotions should not be confused with intuition. Intuition is an edge phenomenon, a first impression, which usually gets buried under second thoughts, which comes just after. And it shows up after the person is well intellectually developed, never before. It's not based on brain's emotional or logical functions, it shows up when these functions are more controlled and doesn't stand in it's way too much.
Intuition is a wordless "voice", which, when you read a book, tells you what is true and what not, it doesn't make you believe it to ensure it's duration, it's not invasive nor manipulative. A person with developed intellect can start to use intuition in hard situations and yet stay emotionally calm, to an amazement of everyone around, who feels like they're gonna get crazy of that situation soon. This is why emotions aren't the same thing as intuition.


I'm quite interested by the "speaking in tongues". As I understood from here, it's mere gibberish, it's not sanskrit, hebrew, sumerian nor enochian language, which would suggest an trans-space-time affinity with the times of Jahweh, so why it's so significant? Behold how powerful is our god, he can make people mutter nonsenses like they became insane! What an attraction. In local, evangelical or catholic churches it would be probably considered as undignified and theatral behavior, if not an effect of devil possesion, this is why I don't understand it much. I would be ashamed to gibber anything at a religional ceremony. Even a priest, singing in front of an altar as I saw it a few times, sounds weirdly. If you ever happened to speak in tongues, was there any special feeling, like being intoxicated? Was it more like booze, (narrow consciousness, happiness) or pot? (wider consciousness, increased mental and physical sensitivity)
How did you know what syllabe to pronounce? Was it spontaneous and randomly sounding, or done to sound exactly like it is officially expected for religional people to gibber? I mean no offense, I'm just fascinated. Maybe it's a "help" of Christianic egregor (the emotional feedback loop I mentioned), I really doubt that intelligent people at bright senses like you're surely now, would suddenly consciously choose to gibber. And I understand how it is to be in a similar dreamstate and how diffcult is to get rid of it. (a personal thing, not religional)

As for speaking in tongues, I prefer hindi, punjabi, sanskrit, arabian, african and indian languages, often used in psychedelic world music. Rare ritual chants, electronically modulated beyond vocal possibilities, or when voice becomes undistinguishable from an instrument, that's amazing. Effect is similar (mindblowing), and it gives the deep and profound meaning, nothing what majority of people would listen to, but exactly like neo-hippies likes it. I don't go to church, I go to the cranial temple of sound and world synthesis, that's my foible Smiling And it makes me to consider music sacred.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.