Where does discrimination start?
Offline I've been thinking about the comparrison of atheists to the black civil rights struggle and the LGBT community. This made me wonder: where does discrimination start?
Obviously there are no separate buses or bathrooms for atheists. Anti-atheist sentiment is far more 'covert' than that. Although you may go years or your whole life without experiencing discrimination, the ex christians here can tell you atheists are not thought of well in the theistic mind. From my conservative schooling I can tell you they are portrayed as immoral, willfully sinful, and damaging to the fabric of society. But when we can say we have been discriminated against?
If someone does not hire you based on your atheism, is that discrimination? Because I'm sure many here would agree they wouldn't want to hire a fundy. I would find it disconcerting to know my employee was entrusting his/her productivity to an imaginary friend, and likely talking to that friend on work time. If that employee called in sick because of demonic attack,well..
Many here have been rejected by the opposite sex based on their atheism. But women might not go out with someone based on their nose, and I doubt any here would date a fundy, so this doesn't really qualify.
So what counts as discrimination?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Discrimination begins when motives or behaviors are generalized.
'Those people...'
'All of them do...'
Not hiring someone for their beliefs ~is~ illegal (except in very rare cases.. a political organization, for instance, can deny employment to someone from a different viewpoint because there is a conflict of interest).
Like it or not, if you own a business and decide not to hire someone because you disagree with a belief of theirs, that's discrimination through and through.
Prejudice and dating is a dangerous topic. I haven't thought it through fully yet, but I would rest my laurels on positive descriptions.
For instance, when I describe who I would [like to] date, I use positive descriptions (that is to say, things I would like that person to have). The person must be smart, brunette, funny, must speak English etc..
I don't (or try not to) have preclusions. I don't say: The person can't be blonde, stupid, and boring. (To juxtapose the previous statement). Anytime that a denial is issued because they present an undesirable quality you are at risk, and if that negative thing is a group identifier then the debate is over: dsicrimination.
That's not to say there aren't 'deal breakers', but those are things you must get to know the person before realizing, not beliefs or
If I have gained anything by damning myself, it is that I no longer have anything to fear. - JP Sartre
Maybe some here would not hire a "fundy", I cannot speak for all atheists just like one Christian doesn't speak for all Christians.
But as for myself, as much as I depise magical claims, if I were to own a business(not that I would), my top priority is to put people in that do a good job, regardless of beliefs. The only limit I would put on their speech at work would be not to discuss beliefs with customers UNLESS they bring it up, and amongst employees, that they cant let ANY talking take focus of the job they do. And no one employee has a monopoly of what can or cannot be said on the job. As long as the work gets done and no one side of the issue is trying to silence the other, you have to let people be themselves, up and until it interferes with job performance.
One thing about one of the people I work with, is that I can talk to others and speak freely about my atheism, but this one guy, the bosses son, cuts me off when I try to counter his comments, he says, "Hey, whatever you believe is fine with me, I tottally respect what you believe". And that is where the conversation always ends with him.
It is code for, "I don't respect what you believe. " I would rather he be honest and say, "I respect your right to be an atheist, but I think you are full of crap for not believing". That would be honest.
I respect one of my former co-workers from my last job who is an Evangelical, who never did that. When we discussed the issue she ALWAYS listenend to my objections to her claims without taking my unfiltered opinion as a personal attack on her, which it was not.
If there is no discrimination against atheists in this country, then why do many states still have written in their state constitutions barring non-believers from holding public office? If there is no discrimination why has this nation never had an atheist president? For the same reason it took so long for women and blacks to compete for that same office. People fear things they don't understand.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
To clarify a little, I'm not suggesting not hiring based on belief should be legal. Rather, I want to see if atheists show the same discriminations they fight against.
Brian37 raises some very good points. There is no reason not to hire a christian if they are qualified for that job. But if you have a atheist and christian, both equally qualified, what then? To be honest, I'd like to know that in hiring the atheist, I'm not going to have to worry about them praying incessantly on work time, blaming satan for sales losses, or missing two weeks because some put a curse on them. And yes, between a christian school and a christian workplace I've seen all those happen.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Well said Brian, me thinks the peole are really afraid of the unknown.
Several of my co- workers have agreed with me on many different Atheist issues, or so they claim, and I'm inclined to think it's because of their age, they are so much younger than I. I try not to talk about my Atheism at work for fear of upsetting the perverbial apple cart.
Given two exactly equal employees (an unlikely event) then the only thing left to judge is efffect. I don't know that it is discrimination at this point. Would hiring the christian to avoid discrimination be reverse discrimination?
A factor to point out here, though: Christianity is a belief system that dictates how a person should act. This is very different from the color of a persons skin, which in no way entails belief.
So, in the event that you have two completely equal job applicants, differing only by their skin, I think you choose the minority. This isn't reverse racism, it's equalization. In the same situation, differing only in atheism / religious belief I would choose the one that doesn't blame bad luck on evil spirits. That is assuming the applicants are ~exactly~equal~
If I have gained anything by damning myself, it is that I no longer have anything to fear. - JP Sartre
I never said you were suggesting that. I am saying that discrimination against atheists DOES EXIST and even though recent polls show a crack in that concept, it is still widespread. Atheists don't have dark skin or a dot on their forehead to mark them. But when we do say we are the silent discrimination is there.
Most people today know that they cant openly get away with it, but there are ways to do it without being detected. For example, in some "right to work states" you can be fired for just about any reason. If you tell your boss you are an atheist and they don't like that, they'd probably never express that to your face, but would later on use an excuse of something job related, like cutbacks or job performance, and without it being on tape, it would be your word against theirs.
Even with blacks today, some have a hard time buying a house and the owner can make an unrelated excuse having nothing to do with race to get by without saying, "I don't want blacks living in this neighborhood."
It is harder for atheists to prove discrimination because when it is done it usually amounts to unwritten unrecorded discrimination and "he said she said" cases are hard, if not impossible to prove.
While it is true atheists are not surrounded by police dogs being bombarded by fire hoses or massly "dissapearing" in the south, it is because we as a label haven't yet met the same critical mass that blacks did in the 50s and 60s.
I bet things could get worse if we gained that kind of organization and political power. BUT, by the same token, because of what blacks and women and native Americans and gays have gone through in their movements, it may make the road easier for us.
Atheist Station in PA has been vandalized. The Freethought Holiday tree in PA was vanalized. I have known of an atheist who was kicked out of his apartment because the landlord found out. I have known of people's personal property being destroyed. I have myself been fortunate in only getting dirty looks and cuss words from some. But it does happen.
There is an atheist in the military currently filing a discrimination suit. My point is it does happen. It is merely under the rug and covert at this time.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
This works fairly well when the mixture of employees is white-black or male-female but it is a whole different story when it comes down to theism-atheism. Why ??? Well, because no one chooses to be black or a woman (at least,not at birth) and it took many centuries for that idea to begin the real process of "equalization". Mind you, that is not "the fruit" that led to our society knowing women and blacks should be considered equal but rather only the seeds.
Only when we began putting ourselves in the shoes of the discriminated do we begin to really understand and start down the road to recovery from our sickness(es). This may take a lot longer with we poor Atheists, primarily because we DO choose to think the way we do. It's not about skin color or gender but rather the way we think.
Not sure I wouldn't go just a little further Brian with your scenario. It has been my experience that, yes, it is good to let people be themselves. However, if the "breaking point policy" becomes 'until it interferes with job performance', then you've got a situation that must be addressed, consequences for whatever actions took place and getting heads to cooly prevail.
As a business owner why would I want the possibility of dealing with that? I'd rather lay down a rule that simply says employees should avoid discussing religion or atheism amongst themselves during the hours they should be working. This rule of couse presumes such discussion wouldn't be a necessary function of the job.
Additionally, why not ask employees to address customers who might 'bring it up' in the following fashion: "Sir, we here at _____ have a policy not to discuss religion or ________ (some workplaces might wish to add politics to the policy). I would be happy to discuss that with you when I'm not here at work". Again, to be clear, this type of a policy wouldn't be necessary at say RRS or a church.
I have read constitutions and other garticles from the following states: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, California, Illinois, Indiana and a host of southern states.Many RRS readers would be shocked as to just how many things are still on the books that are even worse.
Again, people do fear what they don't understand but it isn't the same reasoning when it comes to atheists. Remember, men began to see women as "real people" once two things happened... 1)birth gender isn't a choice and 2) what if I ( as a man) had no choice in that matter (put myself in the shoes of women). Then a whole lot of other things had to happen and finally, in most places in the civilized world, women have gained some measure of equality.
With Atheism it is taking longer because the "opposition" sees us as making a mental choice. I don't believe in prognostication per se, but I am confident that eventually we will gain equality.
A year or so after 9/11 a comedian, I forget who, was poking fun at idiots who put all Muslims in the same catigory as terrorists. BUT, he said being the low man on the totum poll is always common, throughout our history, when it comes to being a minority. He discribed as being a "hazing". I am slaughtering his skit because he wasn't of course advocating bigotry.
Mabe it was Carlos Mancia? But in any case, he was saying "Welcome to the club" But made it clear that once you prove yourself and fight your way to the mainstreem you will be accepted.
Right now we are the lowest of the low, BUT, if we raise our voices and show society that we are just as flawed and just as diverse and just as human in the same wants and disires, eventually it will become a non-issue. But it is up to us, everyone of us to raise our voices.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Where does discrimination come from? Well, when mummy discrimination and daddy discrimination love each other very much ...
Oh wait, serious answers. If the religion gets in the way of the person doing their job, it is not religious discrimination but rather the fact that the person cannot do what they were hired to do. I've heard cases of jews getting jobs in butcher shops then only revealing once they've been there a while that they will not handle pork for religious reasons despite handling pork being part of the job. I've heard of female muslims going through nursing school and refusing to touch male bodies without the correct accompaniment despite that being part of the job. I've heard of a hairdresser recently in London who didn't get hired because in that particular salon it was a requirement to show off ones hair and what the salon was capable of.
All those examples are nothing more than people not being able to perform what they were hired to do and rightful grounds for sacking imho, they couldn't do the job they were hired to do so shouldn't have been hired in the first place. In the last example the person didn't even get hired and still won tens of thousands in compensation.
Not hiring someone due to them being of a religion or lack of religion despite it not interfering with the job, that is discrimination.
If I hired someone for a job that specified up front it would be a 7 day rotating roster only to have them refuse to turn up on their sabbath or equivalent, I would think it was them at fault and be looking to drop them. They knew coming in they couldn't fulfill the requirements and unless during the interview/contract stage of the hiring something was arranged then they should damned well do it. If I hired them for a Monday-Friday job with the occasional overtime and weekend work, then it would be something that can be looked past quite happily.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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Discriminations starts with mental compartmentalization. Yes, discrimination against atheists is far more covert, but the fear that I feel as a nontheist in America is a separate and equally valid issue. No one deserves to feel afraid in their own country of their fellow citizens.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
Protip: If you are an employer in the US, you are not allowed to even ASK what an applicant's religion is. If you do it opens the way to you getting sued (because there's no reason to ask it unless you're going to discriminate, so if someone doesn't get the job they could make the argument that you asked the question specifically to discriminate). If someone outright tells you their religion that's another matter, but you cannot ASK it.
I would hire the one which is the best for my business, religion doesn't really matter, but if his/hers religion interfers with the job, then i would definetly fire him/her.
This is a broad OP
Discrimination is learned. I say teach basic agreed "ethics" starting grade one to the kids , to rid this menace ....
Atheism and Theism too, which would be taught in "comparative religion" schooling, starting maybe grade 5 .....
Change the world , Why? , for the kids and some self esteem .... Wish I could do more ..... "give me all the kids" ..... ask yourselves, wish I had what, when you were kids ..... ?
Atheism Books.
I had a problem with discrimination, but I just stopped wearing my big pink atheist badge, and now people leave me alone.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.