People eating people
Posted on: July 15, 2008 - 9:18pm
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People eating people
Because I'm in a Singer-esque philosophizing mood today... :
A small game.
Can anyone justify why it is that people should not set-up slaughterhouses for killing other people for consumption, in the same way we currently do with cattle, pigs, etc, without using special pleading?
Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Yes it is. But I hope you'd grant that "How would you feel?" is an appeal to emotion and consequently, not an argument either.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
I don't think this is the kind of question that can be asked or answered honestly unless those discussing it have been in the position to harvest humans for food.
Altogether now ...
"Bringing in the peeps
Bringing in the peeps
We shall make a killing
Bringing in the peeps ..."
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Altogether now ...
"Bringing in the peeps
Bringing in the peeps
We shall make a killing
Bringing in the peeps ..."
So uplifting I had to sing it twice (well actually it was a glitch with the enter button that did it ...)
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Well I don't eat cows or pigs I eat beef burgers or sausages.
While intellectually I know full well where the meat comes from emotionally it may as well be grown on the supermarket shelves. I think once you emotionally make the link between meat and death there is a pretty high chance of becoming vegetarians (as my 2 brothers did). Sure there are exceptions but I suspect if I ever visited a slaughter house it would be no more McDonalds for me.
If you start eating humans its going to be far harder to break the link between meat and a sentient life form. Not impossible but not particuarly desirable either
McDonalds still carries meat items?
What Would Kharn Do?
Or shoes that don't make your feet smell like rotten cheese. Have you noticed that about vegans, by the way?
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I would suggest that revulsion at the idea of consuming other members of our own species is another thing that has been hard-wired into our brains via natural selection.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
Hence all the rules even cannibals (and that includes Vikings) had as to when it was proper to do so. You could have something there, Jello.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Not even close, back in Argentina my great aunt (may she R.I.P.) had a big old ranch, where we would every summer have at least once, carne con cuero (meat with leather is the literal translation) where the cow would be gutted and put on a stake (well a cross really) and it would be cooked for about 24 hours, then you simply go up to it and cut off the parts you wanted to eat. Same thing with Pigs (just less time and no cross), hell I would hold the neck of the chicken as my grandmother would slice the neck open and let it bleed to death. Then a nice chicken dinner. So, yeah it's you poor old city folks that get your crap from the supermarket and believe thats where it comes from, shit just be fine that no matter what you eat, something dies in order for you to survive.
Ignoring the logistical problems..
Murder is immoral, therefore killing people for food is also immoral. So the real question you are asking is whether we have an arguement against murder which doesn't involve special pleading.
A society in which murder isn't immoral wouldn't survive.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
Unless they only consider murder immoral if it is a member of your society.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Define ''wouldnt survive'', how many years we talkin? 500? 2500?
edit; OH! and define ''murder'' as well (just the regular old ''no killy humany thingy?'')
What Would Kharn Do?
The Aztec empire survived a while. All it would take would be to say the people being raised for food aren't truly human. Granted it would need to be a different society from our own, but imagine if children were raised to believe they weren't really human - and if there were no adults from society put among them - they were started from babies raised by the people breeding them for food - they would be completely uneducated and unlikely to speak a language...
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Two cannibals sit down to eat a clown, one turns to the other and says "does this taste funny to you?"
You'd have to define society a little better. All I'm saying that if it's okay to raise people to be butchered for food, on what basis could you argue that it's not okay for me to shoot you in the face? The open killing of human beings for profit breaks the social contract and I think that you'd end up with a society that would self destruct.
The immorality of killing other people stems from my sense of empathy.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
But where are the babies coming from? Someone in this slave population would still be semi-educated. You don't need language to communicate to other people.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
They wouldn't even be semi-educated. The "breeders" would have been raised from babies as "cattle." If the ones being eaten were of a different race from the ones in the society itself, that would make things even easier for the "eaters" to say "they aren't really people."
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I mean they would be out competed by societies which frown upon murder. If cooking up people for dinner is okay, then what makes shooting someone and robbing a bank wrong? They are both forms of killing for material gain. If I honestly believed that killing other people was okay then why would I wait for someone else to kill me first?
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
but the humans would be capable of forming a new language... sure it might start out as "UH" for food or something but with enough time and the older kids teach the language to the younger kids before they are slaughtered off a language would develop, right? i think you're underestimating "uneducated" humans... given enough generations, i believe they would eventually either figure it out or figure out a way to escape. toss in the enviable slaughter gone wrong incident or a caretaker raping the female food and the time line speeds up.
Well obviously those from a rural background are going to be an exception but for city people (where most 1st world people live) have probably never seen a green field outside TV never mind a real life cow!.
My burgers are grown in Asda organically from tv land fields and no animals suffer
We in Nordmann "I Can't Believe It's Not Chicken" Progressive Food Enterprises (NICBINC Pfe for short) have tried ro perfect automated lobotomies in our labs and have had mixed success. However at the moment we have yet to speed up the process to the point of profitability so will continue using Mexicans (only for our US customers, of course, where the groundwork has already been done with regard to their status as fodder).
Matt, we were touched when you offered us your amply girthed meat reserves, but I am afraid you are rather on the mature side (meat-wise) and we doubt if the customer is quite ready for such an obdurate dental challenge. Nice of you to do the lobotomy yourself first though. If only all our livestock could be so considerate!
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
But how do you keep pregnant feral women with no family structure from hurting themselves? How do you structure in proper diet and exercise without allowing the "cattle" to interact on a level where they can communicate?
People are social animals, they need contact with each other. Think about how prisons are run.
Logistically, it wouldn't work. No matter how uneducated you tried to keep them, they would learn and they would figure out what is happening to all the people who keep disappearing. Not to mention that you'd have a tough time finding people to work in such a factory. I live about 2 hours away from a large meat packing plant which is primarily worked by new immigrants to Canada. The job of mass slaughtering animals hour after hour does have an impact on some peoples mental health and they have a suicide problem in the town. Now imagine how different it must be to kill cow after cow using a pneumatic air gun compared to lines of human beings screaming and wailing.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
exactly what i was trying to say, yet a much better way of saying it. humans have the potential to figure it out... sure you could discourage their potential by whatever housing and slaughtering methods you could create but the potential is still there. Not to open old wounds - but similarly, in the abortion discussion, a newborn baby has the potential to be a human adult - capable of thought, etc... whereas a bird does not.
i was in a slaughterhouse as a child and i still can't eat the specific food item which was manufactured at that plant. also, (semi-similarly) working in an animal shelter - there were numerous psychological challenges for the caretakers who put animals down. just the salary we would have to pay the slaughterhouse employees would probably make this venture economically infeasible.
This post displays an almost 100% ignorance of society and language as they actually function.
Because human meat isn't a healthy for other humans to eat. It's to do with the proteins or something, but it can basically make people ill. It's got health and safety nightmare written all over it. Oh and it's morally wrong or something.
Atheist Books
Oh, I beg to differ my dear Mr. Cordingley....
Prozac
This quote: "When I die I want to die like my grandfather did, peaceful and in his sleep....not screaming like the passengers in his car."
...is brilliant!
Is it yours?
I collect quotes, you see, and I like to add an author to them, whenever I can. Consider it stolen allready, but if I can put something other than "- Unknown" at the end, I'd like that.
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
It's an old joke in the USA.
Being open-minded isn't the same thing as being vacant.
Yes, Jubal is quite right. In fact I first came across this "witty" saying while visiting another forum. I have no idea
who is the original author. Sorry Nik.
I've read Peter Singer, and I'm not going to try to out-philosophize a very influential and bright expert in the field of ethics.
That doesn't mean I concede his points, but I couldn't hold up my end of the argument (though others have).
I simply reject Singer's notions of sentience. To be sentient is more than simply an ability to feel pain, and that's what Singer's foundational argument rests on.
I love my dogs. They're incredibly smart (for dogs), I'd even say they are probably about as smart as a really stupid human child around age 2-3. One even has demonstrated consistent object permanence, which is pretty damned amazing in itself.
But they aren't sentient. They neither remember most of the past, nor make plans for the future. They don't make tools, learn from mistakes of others in their species, record discoveries to build upon, etc etc.
And that's really the essence of what you're asking I think. You seem to take Singer's position assume that all beings capable of feeling pain are sentient, and therefore all having the same "rights" (I know I butchered Singer, but ethics and Singer in particular was about 30 years ago
I just reject the premise of this position entirely.
When we can have a conversation with a critter about his rights (or anything else more complicated than "I want" or "this symbol means this sound"
I'll be the first one to argue for their rights, even if like my dogs, the rest of their cognition is that of a really stupid 3-year-old. But to be sentient, or more specifically to have rights, requires more than just feeling pain. Especially when it's believed that even *plants* feel pain.
Bottom line? I wouldn't slaughter humans as a routine food source for the exact same reason I am against torture of humans and needless cruelty to animals: Because it's bad for the people doing it and bad for the society which supports their actions. (Not at all making generalizations, this stuff has been studied to death) This is not to mention my own obvious bias about homo sapiens and its place at the top of the predator food chain.
Being open-minded isn't the same thing as being vacant.
I read this joke in Jimmy Carr's book "The Naked Jape", where it was credited to British comedian Bob Monkhouse.
Yeah, I did a quick Google search on this British comedian http://www.basicjokes.com/dquotes.php?aid=2838 he was a really funny guy. Too bad he passed away, though.
Sorry Kevin for pulling this thread off topic....