How do you tell the difference?
Offline I've seen the notion that some Theists don't actually believe and are 'culture Theists' or 'believe in a belief' or something similar.
So how do you tell the difference between these and the Theists that actually believe?
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Offline I'm sure you have a great rack, Captain. I'm sure it's just amazing.
Seriously, do you not feel secure about something that you'd like to come out and tell us? Or is it always going to be hints here and there about how you don't fit in, despite being well endowed and attractive?
That was actually a joke, you're reading too much into my posts.
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Offline Ronin, you and I have conversed at length on several subjects in these forums. Is there any doubt in your mind that I truly believe? Yet, you (I think it was you) once made a statement to the effect that I was one of the most rational theists you'd ever encountered. I don't think that faith and reason are separated that easily.
You cherry pick what to 'believe' from the holy books, right? Yet you give us no rational basis for why one passage is true, another is metaphor. This is what all theists do because you don't really believe. Because religion is a drug, you just delude yourself with some beliefs to get high and to get some comfort from believing you got a divine sugar daddy looking out for you if only you kiss his Divine ass.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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Offline I've seen the notion that some Theists don't actually believe and are 'culture Theists' or 'believe in a belief' or something similar.
So how do you tell the difference between these and the Theists that actually believe?
If you peel the onion back far enough you'll see Theists pretty much all fall into these two categories. There may be a few menally ill people that have deluded themselves into believing, but they usually are a danger to themselves and others. Most Theists just believe enough to get the drug like high that religion offers.
That's why we don't need to 'convert' people to atheism, we just need to get them out of the closet. Stop go along with Theists when they say they believe. It like if you meet someone that claims to be very wealthy or brags about other things you know are untrue. If people would call them out and stop playing along with the self-delusion, the lies would stop.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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Offline HisWillness wrote:I'm sure you have a great rack, Captain. I'm sure it's just amazing.
Seriously, do you not feel secure about something that you'd like to come out and tell us? Or is it always going to be hints here and there about how you don't fit in, despite being well endowed and attractive?
That was actually a joke, you're reading too much into my posts.
But your posts follow a pattern, otherwise I wouldn't mention it. The above deflection happens each time, too.
Step 1: "I don't fit in", Step 2: "I'm attractive," Step 3: "I was just kidding."
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline This is actually a concept that I've found I have to explain to a lot of women... and that's not saying ANYTHING against women... but while we all have a lot of behaviors we do without thinking about it, this is something that's more true of men than of women: We don't think.When you ask a man 'What are you thinking?' and he just looks at you for a moment? We're not thinking. Man is capable of long-term planning and rational thought. We are capable of careful, meticulous study. But 99% of the time, men especially, we're on autopilot. We're not thinking. We're just acting, or reacting. We're just completely 'in the moment' without even thinking about it.
I know this is a wierd place to be saying this, but ladies, when we seem to be acting like obtuse fools just to piss you off? We're just obtuse fools. Men are dogs. Really, we're very simple creatures. As I said, we may have plans, we may have interests, we may have devoted fields of study, but outside of the things we have consciously chosen to bend out intellects to, here is what goes on in a man's brain:
Man's Brain wrote:We're just dogs. We want something to eat, someplace to sleep, and a leg to hump every now and again, and we're happy.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline But your posts follow a pattern, otherwise I wouldn't mention it. The above deflection happens each time, too.
Step 1: "I don't fit in", Step 2: "I'm attractive," Step 3: "I was just kidding."
For fuck's sake Will, the only time I said I didn't fit in was in the boobs topic. Don't start bringing Lucy's cardboard box into this one.
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Offline For fuck's sake Will, the only time I said I didn't fit in was in the boobs topic. Don't start bringing Lucy's cardboard box into this one.
Wow.. I just went back to that thread.. surprised to find it at 367 posts. Started reading from the end.. moving backwards. That was interestingly sad.. but at least now I understand the reference to Lucy's cardboard box. I was more a Calvin&Hobbes reader myself..
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Offline For fuck's sake Will, the only time I said I didn't fit in was in the boobs topic. Don't start bringing Lucy's cardboard box into this one.
Pineapple, denial ain't just a river in Egypt, you know. I have no idea about your rack or your physical appearance in general. That's not what this is about. I've shown you numerous times that your M.O. is exactly what Will has said. You post something that clearly leads in a particular direction. When you're called on it, you change your answer, or gripe at people for reading too much into what you've said. If worst comes to worst, you say you were just joking.
I'm not trying to be mean to you. (I say that because I fully admit that sometimes I try to be mean to you. You deserve it sometimes.) I'd really like you to see that at least with other people, you are extremely evasive, and you tend not to ever say something directly and clearly. Forgive me for playing a psychologist on the internet, but such a strong tendency towards others often indicates a similar tendency towards oneself.
It's hardly a crime to be uncertain about your feelings or beliefs. Jake knows all of us have had things that we felt emotionally attached to but that we couldn't justify. One of the games people play when they don't have an answer is to shift the blame to other people. Everyone else is asking leading questions. They're trying to make you look stupid. They are attacking you. They're intentionally playing a "game." It's not an easy thing to look inward and see fear or evasiveness. Unfortunately, it's part of the human condition. We all have something we don't like to think about. The only question is whether or not we think about it anyway.
If none of what I'm saying applies to you, then fine. You're perfectly content with your beliefs, and you know good and well what the answer to the question is. If you do, then answer it. Otherwise, stop griping at people who are pointing out the obvious -- that you are evasive, and turn legitimate questions back at the interlocutor, as if they are trying to hurt you by asking.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Offline Whoops... got confused about threads... that's why some of that post doesn't make much sense. I stand by everything I said about you being evasive. Apply the rest of it to the thread about what you get out of religion.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Offline Quote:For fuck's sake Will, the only time I said I didn't fit in was in the boobs topic. Don't start bringing Lucy's cardboard box into this one.Pineapple, denial ain't just a river in Egypt, you know. I have no idea about your rack or your physical appearance in general. That's not what this is about. I've shown you numerous times that your M.O. is exactly what Will has said. You post something that clearly leads in a particular direction. When you're called on it, you change your answer, or gripe at people for reading too much into what you've said. If worst comes to worst, you say you were just joking.
I'm not trying to be mean to you. (I say that because I fully admit that sometimes I try to be mean to you. You deserve it sometimes.) I'd really like you to see that at least with other people, you are extremely evasive, and you tend not to ever say something directly and clearly. Forgive me for playing a psychologist on the internet, but such a strong tendency towards others often indicates a similar tendency towards oneself.
It's hardly a crime to be uncertain about your feelings or beliefs. Jake knows all of us have had things that we felt emotionally attached to but that we couldn't justify. One of the games people play when they don't have an answer is to shift the blame to other people. Everyone else is asking leading questions. They're trying to make you look stupid. They are attacking you. They're intentionally playing a "game." It's not an easy thing to look inward and see fear or evasiveness. Unfortunately, it's part of the human condition. We all have something we don't like to think about. The only question is whether or not we think about it anyway.
If none of what I'm saying applies to you, then fine. You're perfectly content with your beliefs, and you know good and well what the answer to the question is. If you do, then answer it. Otherwise, stop griping at people who are pointing out the obvious -- that you are evasive, and turn legitimate questions back at the interlocutor, as if they are trying to hurt you by asking.
Oh come on Hamby. I'm snide for a reason.
I've told other people to fuck when they probed me what makes you think I won't do it to you now?
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Offline Oh come on Hamby. I'm snide for a reason.
I don't doubt that you have a reason. Since you don't say what it is, I'm forced to guess. I wasn't tossed off the turnip truck yesterday. I think I have a pretty good guess.
I've told other people to fuck when they probed me what makes you think I won't do it to you now?
Oh, I don't know for sure. Could be any number of things. Maybe I hit a nerve, and you're angry, but you're still fascinated that someone sees through your evasiveness. Maybe you're struggling with questions about how my knowledge of your gender has changed my attitude towards you, and you're trying really hard to find a way to blame my attitude towards you on gender bias, but you can't because I was just as direct with you before you mentioned it. Maybe it's an age thing. Again, I treated you this way before I knew that you're very young, so you can't really write me off for that reason either. Maybe it's because you've seen me interact with other people on cam and know that I am very respectful of other people but also very direct, and you know that I wouldn't be saying any of this to you if I didn't think there would be some benefit to the conversation.
Then again, maybe you're experiencing that annoying youthful hormone coctail that leads to post-adolescent insecurity, lashing out at perceived authority, and a counterbalancing desire for something concrete to hang your hat on, or someone to tell you something that will make it easier for you to feel a sense of self identity.
Like I said, it's really difficult to tell things about you because you never say anything clearly about yourself. All any of us can do is guess based on generalizations. If you hate having generalizations applied to you so much, why don't you tell us why you're different from everyone else?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Offline I wouldn't be saying any of this to you if I didn't think there would be some benefit to the conversation.
And what would that be Hamby? You'll "fix" me? Who are you House?
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Offline And what would that be Hamby? You'll "fix" me? Who are you House?
Don't flatter yourself too much, Pineapple. Haven't you heard me say many times that I don't debate theists to try to change their minds? I do it for the audience.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Offline Quote:And what would that be Hamby? You'll "fix" me? Who are you House?Don't flatter yourself too much, Pineapple. Haven't you heard me say many times that I don't debate theists to try to change their minds? I do it for the audience.
So all you've demostrated is that I'm introverted.
What's that suppose to do for the audience?
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Offline Hambydammit wrote:Quote:And what would that be Hamby? You'll "fix" me? Who are you House?Don't flatter yourself too much, Pineapple. Haven't you heard me say many times that I don't debate theists to try to change their minds? I do it for the audience.
So all you've demostrated is that I'm introverted.
What's that suppose to do for the audience?
as a member of the audience; it helps us understand some peoples motivations and motives that we wouldn't comprehend otherwise.
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
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The ones who actually believe have "I'm stupid" tatooed on the inside of their rectum.
Signature ? How ?
I've heard people explicitly emphasize the importance of belief itself over the factual content of belief.
many of the worst ones I know have a sort of split personality. They're extremely eager and super"honest" when they're presenting you with their ideas and how you should follow them, and when they don't think that anyone notices they're laughing at the fools they think are falling for their bs.
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
I ask them why. The ones with rationalizations and justifications are just part of the culture. The true believers just kind of look at you, unable to understand how you can question why they believe. To them, it's simply The Truth, and as absolute as mathematics.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
When you think about it, though... c'mon, it's really almost all culture.
When they tell you on Monday morning how many people were "saved" at church the day before.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
almost? I've seen less in petri dishes in high school.
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
You're going to have to clarify this some more.. please. I don't understand waht you're saying. "Don't actually believe" and "believe in a belief," to me, seem contradictory.
Seriously?
Some people believe based solely on the perception of belief's benefits (personally, socially, whatever vector you like); or perhaps they only endorse belief for others, having tacitly admitted their own incredulity toward the actual claims.
Ah.. okay.. maybe I understand now.
maybe? I'll put it in a different way; There are people who don't understand religious belief, have doubts about what they are told, etc... So instead of coming out of the closet figuratively, they keep attending for the social benefits of being with others or having something to do or whatever...
there are also those that know that what they hear or say isn't right or true, but stay in for their own personal gain at other's expense.
what Cpt Pineapple is wondering; is how does one tell the first from the latter? That's how I read her comment.
I hope this helps.
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
Something in the eyes of the "fundy's I've often noticed. Kinda dazed and possessed, or oddly excited ..... Scary .... Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn etc etc, and their sheep, reek the devil .....
Benny Hinn: Let the Bodies Hit the Floor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI
Atheism Books.
Well, like everything else it's a sliding scale. So you can't really tell easily. If you know and converse with them for a long time and they still seem fairly rational then they probably don't believe all that strongly.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Ahhh....I can see Saint Peter at the pearly gates, humming the theme to "The Catch of 153 fish" between his words as he says, "Next ! ....OK now..... bend over, we've got to double-check. This won't hurt a bit, I promise."
He's going to be in for a bit of a shock when the next MPAA/RIAA executive dies. I wonder what level of court they'll prosecute him at for his unlicensed public performances?
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/
Maybe Judge Jeebus will preside, allowing old Pete "free will", claiming public domain.
The ones that threaten your life are cultural, the ones that regard you with too much pity to listen are true believers. The ones that listen and flail about in argumentation are fooling themselves, some more than others.
Just a rule of thumb.
If I have gained anything by damning myself, it is that I no longer have anything to fear. - JP Sartre
Yeah. And that's just weird. But common, I'd agree.
"Dammit, you have to believe in SOMETHING ridiculous, don't you?"
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Ronin, you and I have conversed at length on several subjects in these forums. Is there any doubt in your mind that I truly believe? Yet, you (I think it was you) once made a statement to the effect that I was one of the most rational theists you'd ever encountered. I don't think that faith and reason are separated that easily.
Perhaps the measure of faith should be the observation of Tertullian "see how they love one another".
Just as an aside, being over 40 years old, I have to submit regularly to the indignity of a rectal exam. I have yet to hear my doctor exclaim during the course of the examination, "So, I see you're a religious beliver." For what it's worth.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
Or, for the 'believe in a belief' concept, there's a whole lot of folks out there who subscribe to the 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in, only that you have faith in a higher power'. Which strikes me as a plea for tolerance at the cost of orthodoxy, but at the same time, it begs the question 'If the substance of your beliefs isn't important, why believe them?'
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
TATTOO CENTRAL
"St. Peter's on the other side"
To Mr. totus_tuus:
Well, it's a tattoo, all right. Butt (sc) it can't be felt, only seen.
It's possible some doctors, perhaps theist doctors, didn't get the memo on that one. It recommended the various procedures on removal of the cranium from the rectum..... previously known as pulling the head out of your a$$
My apologies to you, sir. We'll prepare a new memo right away.
If he did have his head up yours, I praise he was able to remove it.
I don't know if you can tell, Pineapple. When it comes right down to it, I am not sure that a lot of theists know whether they believe in god or belief in god. Before I admitted that I was an atheist, I probably counted as someone who didn't believe but went through the motions because they were "good."
We also have to consider the fact (and it is a fact) that a lot of people do things without thinking about them. There are a lot of people who have never actively considered their church attendance, prayer, etc. It is closer to an automatic behavior than an informed, conscious rationalization. If you ask them why they go to church, they'll truly be stumped, or will say something like, "Well, my mamaw and papaw taught us good, and we like the preacher. He's a good man, that one..."
That's not the reason they go to church, though. They go because they have always gone. We are creatures of instinct. If you really give it some thought, you'll probably realize that a vast majority of our actions are automatic -- not consciously thought out. We don't like admitting it, but even some of our deliberate conscious actions are very close to being automatic. Habits are seldom conscious.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
This is actually a concept that I've found I have to explain to a lot of women... and that's not saying ANYTHING against women... but while we all have a lot of behaviors we do without thinking about it, this is something that's more true of men than of women: We don't think.
When you ask a man 'What are you thinking?' and he just looks at you for a moment? We're not thinking. Man is capable of long-term planning and rational thought. We are capable of careful, meticulous study. But 99% of the time, men especially, we're on autopilot. We're not thinking. We're just acting, or reacting. We're just completely 'in the moment' without even thinking about it.
I know this is a wierd place to be saying this, but ladies, when we seem to be acting like obtuse fools just to piss you off? We're just obtuse fools. Men are dogs. Really, we're very simple creatures. As I said, we may have plans, we may have interests, we may have devoted fields of study, but outside of the things we have consciously chosen to bend out intellects to, here is what goes on in a man's brain:
We're just dogs. We want something to eat, someplace to sleep, and a leg to hump every now and again, and we're happy.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
That was Dennett's phrase 'belief in a belief' from the book 'Breaking the Spell'.
I think he has a chapter explaining it.
I always thought the honest answer would be 'nice rack'
Here's a way to know!
O They Will Know We Are Christians…
posted by Dan Savage on July 24 at 9:29 AM
…by the teenage girls we encourage to run away from home, get drunk, and [be] rape[d].
And I suppose those that say that they serve God by fighting to end poverty and hunger are conveniently 'cultural Christian'?
They rarely talk about god or jesus and mostly just listen and nod their head. They also ask questions.
They talk about god and jesus.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Got the old non-sequitur machine fired up again, Cpt?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I would if you'd stop throwing a wrench in it.
Believe it or not, I was planning to keep it in my garage when I created the topic, but Pork Chop made me drag it out again.
I thought you were asking about belief in belief.
I remember a couple of years ago I kept hearing about this (scary) poll
where a very large majority of American respondents said that they would vote
for a Muslim or someone of any other faith than their own before
they would vote for an atheist.
The message to me was that belief in ANY god is, even one totally opposed
to their own, is preferable to no belief in any god. Protecting their belief
in belief itself, at almost any cost.
(I see now that I misread your original post, oh well, sorry)
Thanks Kat.
I also did some searching up on some articles for "belief in a belief"--so, I think I understand a bit more now. Appreciate the help.
We aren't? I'm usually designing something or fantasizing about nailing someone other than the woman who's asking.
(Moral of the story: like expensive items, if you have to ask, you don't want to know.)
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I'm sure you have a great rack, Captain. I'm sure it's just amazing.
Seriously, do you not feel secure about something that you'd like to come out and tell us? Or is it always going to be hints here and there about how you don't fit in, despite being well endowed and attractive?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I won't speak for all men, but my thoughts transition nearly instantly.
So at the moment I'm asked, I'm not thinking about the nice rack, but then....
In the twinkling of my eye yet before the moment actually passes, then YES...