Hello world!

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Hello world!

Hey guys! My name is Jake and I'm 18 years old. I'm the son of a Southern Baptist preacher and I've been and atheist for 4 years now. I live in Austin, Texas but I just moved here from Homer, Alaska. If you have any questions about me, feel free to ask!

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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welcome

 

    Glad to have yet another Texan here, that state seems to be getting saner every day. I be from Toronto GTA myself, eh.

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No_Thanks_JesusWelcome to

No_Thanks_Jesus

Welcome to "show". I was just wondering how far your no thanks jesus goes ? !!! 

   There are lots of staunch "Atheists for Jesus", as me, Richard Dawkins, Alan Watts, Nietzsche, and many buddha fans etc etc.

How about "No Thanks St. Paul !" 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Atheists+for+Jesus&btnG=Search

 

 


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Hello my Friend and Welcome

.............to the machine , or if you prefer the Lab , or the RRS Forums .  Austin the birthplace of Steve Ray Vaughn , second to only Jimi Hendrix . And Alaska WoW , what did you learn ? outdoors sport's like fishing , hiking , white water rafting ?     

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Hellooooooooooo! =^_^=Son of

Hellooooooooooo! =^_^=

Son of a preacher, eh? If he knows about your atheism, does he accept it or is he using the silly "it's just a phase" thing so many religious parents use when thier children deconvert? I'm asking because it's something I see parents do alot with younger deconverts.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Hey what's goin on.....I

Hey what's goin on.....I don't know about Texas, but I recent got back from a trip to Seward, Alaska to visit some family and loved it. Anyway, welcome to the forums

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Welcome to the hizzle!

Welcome to the hizzle!


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:Hey

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

Hey guys! My name is Jake and I'm 18 years old. I'm the son of a Southern Baptist preacher and I've been and atheist for 4 years now. I live in Austin, Texas but I just moved here from Homer, Alaska. If you have any questions about me, feel free to ask!

 

Welcome to the forums!

The only question I have is : your realization of atheism 4 years ago....what was the one thing that helped you break out of your (what I assume is HARDCORE) indoctrination!  Great escape!

 

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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Ken G. wrote:.............to

Ken G. wrote:

.............to the machine , or if you prefer the Lab , or the RRS Forums .  Austin the birthplace of Steve Ray Vaughn , second to only Jimi Hendrix . And Alaska WoW , what did you learn ? outdoors sport's like fishing , hiking , white water rafting ?     

 

Texans in Alaska tend to learn one thing; the oil industry. Mind, that's just a tendency. Smiling

 

hi and welcome from another Texas atheist Smiling You'll enjoy it here, I'm sure.

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History channel

Hello again ,I was just watching the Daily Show ,and the guest taped a show in Alaska called "Tougher in Alaska " about how hard it is to get around.       

 

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Welcome Jake!

Welcome Jake!


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Welcome!You further solidify

Welcome!

You further solidify my theory that fundamentalist indoctrination only leads to atheists..maybe they will indoctrinate themsleves out of existence soon. I'm also curious as to how your father took it?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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Welcome to the

Welcome to the RRS!

Congratulations on your upgrade to unbeliever.


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Welcome aboard

 

 

 

      ... pull up a chair, sit on the floor... admissions free, pay at the door.   I still think Tom Hicks first said this line but I can't find it on the web.  Anyone help?    

               

                Good to have you.  What's the drinking age in Texas?

 

                                                     


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 Welcome. Enjoy.

 Welcome. Enjoy.


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Hi, there.  Have fun.

Hi, there.  Have fun.


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My screen name uses Jesus as

My screen name uses Jesus as a generalization of all the Gods since he's easily one of the most well known. In other words; I want no part in anything that is supernatural.

 

But then again I also wanted to get the nice side in there (no thanks) because I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:I

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.
Why?


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I'm a HUGE fan of Vaughn! I

I'm a HUGE fan of Vaughn! I learned that political correctness is a facade to cover up one's cowardly side because they're too afraid to state their own opinion.

 

But yes, fishing, hiking, and rafting were a huge part of my life and I'm still in love with it.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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JillSwift

JillSwift wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.
Why?

 

Because I remember how heavily I was into being a Christian and how much it meant to me. Only when someone is ready to come to reality will I help them. Otherwise I'd be starting a lot of drama.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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No_Thanks_Jesus

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

JillSwift wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.
Why?

 

Because I remember how heavily I was into being a Christian and how much it meant to me. Only when someone is ready to come to reality will I help them. Otherwise I'd be starting a lot of drama.

But don't you feel happier now? Don't you wish someone had told and helped you sooner? What if someone had led you to atheism through confronting your beliefs. If they had adopted your stance, you might have been christian your whole life.

I'm not saying you should automatically confront every person on the street about their belief, but generally if you wait until a christian is ready for reality, you're going to be waiting a long time.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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JillSwift

JillSwift wrote:

Hellooooooooooo! =^_^=

Son of a preacher, eh? If he knows about your atheism, does he accept it or is he using the silly "it's just a phase" thing so many religious parents use when thier children deconvert? I'm asking because it's something I see parents do alot with younger deconverts.

 

He says that if I'm not a Christian now then I never was and is thoroughly convinced that I'm going to Hell. I can't talk to him anymore without him trying to "save" me and nor will he give me the time of day to explain why I'm an atheist.

 

The moment I told him I was an atheist was horrible. Ever seen a preacher pin his son to the wall by his neck and cuss him for 30 minutes?

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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Loc wrote:No_Thanks_Jesus

Loc wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

JillSwift wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.
Why?

 

Because I remember how heavily I was into being a Christian and how much it meant to me. Only when someone is ready to come to reality will I help them. Otherwise I'd be starting a lot of drama.

But don't you feel happier now? Don't you wish someone had told and helped you sooner? What if someone had led you to atheism through confronting your beliefs. If they had adopted your stance, you might have been christian your whole life.

I'm not saying you should automatically confront every person on the street about their belief, but generally if you wait until a christian is ready for reality, you're going to be waiting a long time.

 

Lol, it's the serious debate I'm referring to. I'll state my beliefs, opinions, and known facts from time to time. But whenever they want to sit down and really get to it, I'll be there.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

Hey guys! My name is Jake and I'm 18 years old. I'm the son of a Southern Baptist preacher and I've been and atheist for 4 years now. I live in Austin, Texas but I just moved here from Homer, Alaska. If you have any questions about me, feel free to ask!

 

Welcome to the forums!

The only question I have is : your realization of atheism 4 years ago....what was the one thing that helped you break out of your (what I assume is HARDCORE) indoctrination!  Great escape!

 

 

I was at the time the leader of church camp, leader of Sunday school, as well as the youth preacher. I was always looking for new things to help me be a more focused christian. It really is a story worthy of a book but I'll just say it started when I realized how many translations and modifications the bible had gone through and how off center it must have been from the original version, from there i spoke with my science teacher and the entire process went of for a few months.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:The

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
The moment I told him I was an atheist was horrible. Ever seen a preacher pin his son to the wall by his neck and cuss him for 30 minutes?

And parents wonder why their children reject them.

Fortunately for me my parents learned of my apostasy over the phone. My dad was at one time a "stand in" preacher for about 2 months where he goes to church (because they were "in between" preachers), so I partially understand your situation. It's really disheartening when you want to speak to them about something but they try to cloud it with religion. I am now on good terms with my parents as they have finally stopped pestering me about religious crap and treat me with a bit more respect.

Good luck trying to get your father to listen.

Your god's silence speaks loud and clear


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:But

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

But then again I also wanted to get the nice side in there (no thanks) because I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.

 

Nice sentiment, but if you really dig into why people 'believe' you'll find that they don't really believe at all. At best is't self-delusion and they are so full of hypocrisy when they cherry pick and decide that only part of the holy book is true. You'll find 'belief' is often based on fear. With the way your father acted, I'd say he may be a closet atheist. But he's in so far with his career and life so wrapped up in religion, that he can't get out.

So, I can't have any respect for someones belief in something for which there is no evidence and something which they terrorized and lie to children about.

Why do you want to get on the nice side of people who terrorize the young and naive and would be happy to see you tortured in hell? Seems like you'd want to just avoid these people, tolerate them if they're your family.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Hello. Wow another Texan.

Hello. Wow another Texan. There must be something in the water... Eye-wink


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Sleestack wrote:Hello. Wow

Sleestack wrote:

Hello. Wow another Texan. There must be something in the water... Eye-wink

 

I wish; the truth here is, just admitting a slightly different world view requires courage and more powerful guns than the resident cretins have, but then again, I'm in North Texas, not the far more reasonable bastion of Austin.

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Welcome, I see we have

Welcome, I see we have another Bad Religion fan!!!! Hooray! Saw them Twice last year one of the best bands I've ever seen in concert!  What else do you like?


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EXC wrote:No_Thanks_Jesus

EXC wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

But then again I also wanted to get the nice side in there (no thanks) because I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.

 

Nice sentiment, but if you really dig into why people 'believe' you'll find that they don't really believe at all. At best is't self-delusion and they are so full of hypocrisy when they cherry pick and decide that only part of the holy book is true. You'll find 'belief' is often based on fear. With the way your father acted, I'd say he may be a closet atheist. But he's in so far with his career and life so wrapped up in religion, that he can't get out.

So, I can't have any respect for someones belief in something for which there is no evidence and something which they terrorized and lie to children about.

Why do you want to get on the nice side of people who terrorize the young and naive and would be happy to see you tortured in hell? Seems like you'd want to just avoid these people, tolerate them if they're your family.

 

I like the way you think, but why go around hating the mass when many of them don't try to force anything upon you? There are many who are like my father and how I was, I admit that. But even so, only when bigotry is attacking me will I strike back and be forceful with my beliefs. I want to be nothing like my father, I want to be better. I have friends who are christians and jews who respect my standing so I respect theirs. When they ask me why I tell them.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod


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Kay Cat wrote:Sleestack

Kay Cat wrote:

Sleestack wrote:

Hello. Wow another Texan. There must be something in the water... Eye-wink

 

I wish; the truth here is, just admitting a slightly different world view requires courage and more powerful guns than the resident cretins have, but then again, I'm in North Texas, not the far more reasonable bastion of Austin.

That does indeed suck. Nothing like living in the 21st century and having 14th century neighbors.


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:Ever

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

Ever seen a preacher pin his son to the wall by his neck and cuss him for 30 minutes?

I need you to type the following into Google for me: "flying armbar".

Also, from my old instructor Vladimir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5KJxgSk-Q

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:I like

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I like the way you think, but why go around hating the mass when many of them don't try to force anything upon you? There are many who are like my father and how I was, I admit that. But even so, only when bigotry is attacking me will I strike back and be forceful with my beliefs. I want to be nothing like my father, I want to be better. I have friends who are christians and jews who respect my standing so I respect theirs. When they ask me why I tell them.
Now, see, here's the problem:

Those "masses" you say aren't forcing anything on you? They are. They're the ones voting in the lunatic politicians. They're the ones who sit quietly by when minority views are being squelched.

Also, I'm talking about "respect" of those silly religious views. There's no reason at all to respect such idiocy, and I assure you that such respect is not reciprocated. I don't mean to suggest going all the way to the other end of the pendulum swing and hate anyone. Or to give some poor sap an ear-full if they say "bless you" when you sneeze.

 

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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HisWillness wrote:Also, from

HisWillness wrote:

Also, from my old instructor Vladimir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5KJxgSk-Q

Is it just me, or is his demonstration partner not paid nearly enough?


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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JillSwift

JillSwift wrote:

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:
I like the way you think, but why go around hating the mass when many of them don't try to force anything upon you? There are many who are like my father and how I was, I admit that. But even so, only when bigotry is attacking me will I strike back and be forceful with my beliefs. I want to be nothing like my father, I want to be better. I have friends who are christians and jews who respect my standing so I respect theirs. When they ask me why I tell them.
Now, see, here's the problem:

Those "masses" you say aren't forcing anything on you? They are. They're the ones voting in the lunatic politicians. They're the ones who sit quietly by when minority views are being squelched.

Also, I'm talking about "respect" of those silly religious views. There's no reason at all to respect such idiocy, and I assure you that such respect is not reciprocated. I don't mean to suggest going all the way to the other end of the pendulum swing and hate anyone. Or to give some poor sap an ear-full if they say "bless you" when you sneeze.

 

 

 

the fact these sorts of people go about hating and influencing things on such a large scale is precisely why atheists in their territories can't openly admit to being atheist. I for one can't carry a gun everywhere to defend my position, so I don't admit to being atheist around certain people. It's not about respecting rabid xtian belief so much as it is about respecting one's own right to live.

 

Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back


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HisWillness wrote: I need

HisWillness wrote:

 

I need you to type the following into Google for me: "flying armbar".

Also, from my old instructor Vladimir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5KJxgSk-Q

 

 Yikes !   Seriously, I'm a huge fan of Russian fighters but I'm a little dubious about the effectiveness of Vlad's slippy-slappy form of combat

 

ps, welcome to the forum Jake.


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Damn, you guys had/have it

Damn, you guys had/have it rough. When I was a kid, my parents probably would have disowned me if I had become theist. Well, they probably wouldn't have disowned me, they would have just laughed at me. I can just imagine it now: "No son of mine is going to be an idiot".

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Welcome...

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

My screen name uses Jesus as a generalization of all the Gods since he's easily one of the most well known. In other words; I want no part in anything that is supernatural.

 

But then again I also wanted to get the nice side in there (no thanks) because I respect peoples choice to believe in a God.

 

Hi and welcome.  

While it would be counter productive, not to mention impolite, to go for the throat of a supernaturalist in a social situation, I don’t think it is good to pretend a respect you do not feel.  All forms of superstition, religion in particular, have been historically detrimental to civilization in my view and do not deserve respect.  After all, your recent enlightenment would not have been respected throughout most of Christian history…quite the reverse.  

 

 

............................................................

"Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition". - Isaac Asimov


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Yikes

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Yikes !   Seriously, I'm a huge fan of Russian fighters but I'm a little dubious about the effectiveness of Vlad's slippy-slappy form of combat

Don't knock it til you've tried it. No one expects the very weird sensation of getting hit in a few pressure points all at once. It's like having your nervous system decide that it's going to give up. The feeling is just shy of taking a huge liver shot. (For those of you who haven't done any boxing, the "liver shot" is the body blow that boxers can't stand up after.)

Where do you think Fedor came up with that weird boxing style, SAMBO? Nope.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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I have always referred to

   Just curious, but did Vasiliy say that he knew and or trained with Fedor ?  I don't recall reading about Vasily or Systema in any interviews with Fedor

I did a Google search and Vasily seems to endorse the use of "Psychic Training" or sixth sense.  Seems kind of weird to me, though.  What was your impression of that ?

  I'm still checking the guy out and am reading a thread about Systema on Bullshido.net.

 


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My religion is you

My religion is you ,

 Because I AM god as you ....


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Just curious, but did Vasiliy say that he knew and or trained with Fedor ?

Whoa - no, I didn't say that. Systema is mixed with a bunch of old Russian styles of martial art (which is where Systema borrows much of its striking technique). As a convenient example, we studied the strike that Fedor just used to knock Tim Silvia out. The sweeping overhand that Fedor, in his genius, has turned into a hybrid of a straight punch and a backhand roundhouse. I've seen him use it brilliantly several times on larger opponents (like Zuluzinho as the most textbook example). He can plant it straight on the jaw, which is amazing.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
I did a Google search and Vasily seems to endorse the use of "Psychic Training" or sixth sense.  Seems kind of weird to me, though.  What was your impression of that ?

Ugh. Yes, unfortunately these guys propagate the myth that there's some kind of psychic energy you can use on other people. Somehow it only seems to work on some students (for instance, it never worked on me or anyone else who had played a contact sport before). That part really bothered me because it's my feeling that Vladimir considered it a kind of joke, but the demand for it kept him going, and he made a video about it. That was such a small part of the training that I just ignored it. But yeah, that part is pure bullshido.

Vladimir and a few of his students are decent, but don't watch any of the guys from Systema UK - they're terrible. I don't even know where they learned that shit. Ryabko is very efficient, but his stuff basically works for his body type (stocky and powerful). Most of the stuff you see on YouTube is what Vladimir called "Easy" training (demo stuff). The actual practice was a lot more brutal, and a lot less like aikido.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:I like

No_Thanks_Jesus wrote:

I like the way you think, but why go around hating the mass when many of them don't try to force anything upon you? There are many who are like my father and how I was, I admit that. But even so, only when bigotry is attacking me will I strike back and be forceful with my beliefs. I want to be nothing like my father, I want to be better. I have friends who are christians and jews who respect my standing so I respect theirs. When they ask me why I tell them.

Well that's a myth that religion is just a decision that adults make, that religious people mind their own business and don't force their beliefs and values on others.

What's the reality? Many want to force Christian values on the rest of the society, teach bad science in the schools, not teaching students to think critically, a worthless war on drugs, an unhealthy attitude toward sex, a lassie-fair attitude toward the environment and overpopulation, demanding that politicians have Christian faith. Then they want tax exemption for their churches.

I see religious indoctrination of children as abuse, same as forcing drugs or sex on a child. To mis-educate a child is as bad or worse than no education.

I believe that religion poisons everything. Theists don't live in hermetically sealed environments that prevents their poison from affecting the rest of us.

But the Christians who 'respect' your non-belief also believe that you will be tortured for all eternity in hell unless you come back into the fold? If they are your friend, how can they love and worship a god who will torture you just because you decided not to believe something without evidence? When they are in heaven and you are in hell, are they planning to continue respecting your decision?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


ProzacDeathWish
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HisWillness

HisWillness wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Just curious, but did Vasiliy say that he knew and or trained with Fedor ?

Whoa - no, I didn't say that. Systema is mixed with a bunch of old Russian styles of martial art (which is where Systema borrows much of its striking technique). As a convenient example, we studied the strike that Fedor just used to knock Tim Silvia out. The sweeping overhand that Fedor, in his genius, has turned into a hybrid of a straight punch and a backhand roundhouse. I've seen him use it brilliantly several times on larger opponents (like Zuluzinho as the most textbook example). He can plant it straight on the jaw, which is amazing.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
I did a Google search and Vasily seems to endorse the use of "Psychic Training" or sixth sense.  Seems kind of weird to me, though.  What was your impression of that ?

Ugh. Yes, unfortunately these guys propagate the myth that there's some kind of psychic energy you can use on other people. Somehow it only seems to work on some students (for instance, it never worked on me or anyone else who had played a contact sport before). That part really bothered me because it's my feeling that Vladimir considered it a kind of joke, but the demand for it kept him going, and he made a video about it. That was such a small part of the training that I just ignored it. But yeah, that part is pure bullshido.

Vladimir and a few of his students are decent, but don't watch any of the guys from Systema UK - they're terrible. I don't even know where they learned that shit. Ryabko is very efficient, but his stuff basically works for his body type (stocky and powerful). Most of the stuff you see on YouTube is what Vladimir called "Easy" training (demo stuff). The actual practice was a lot more brutal, and a lot less like aikido.

Cool.  Thanks for the view from the inside, so to speak.   I'm glad I'm not the only one here who enjoys combat oriented sports.  

...I guess I should stop being rude to Jake and derailing his intro thread.  Sorry Jake !


MattShizzle
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I think respecting the

I think respecting the person is something you should do but not their beliefs. I always like to say (I think the quote's by Bertrand Russel) "People who don't want their beliefs ridiculed shouldn't hold ridiculous beliefs."

Atheists that get on our asses for not respecting theist beliefs/leaving them alone when theists don't leave US alone piss me off even more than theists sometimes. How much respect do most Christians have for our lack of theistic belief? Beliefs not worthy of respect don't get my respect - though I'm not going to burst into a church and scream "you're all deluded by utter bulshit" if someone brings it up to me (or posts it in a public forum) I'm not holding back at all.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


No_Thanks_Jesus
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That's what I hold to, I

That's what I hold to, I respect a person CHOICE to, not the belief itself and I attack when they do or when they get that holier than thou syndrome. My friends are cool with me so I'm cool with them, the majority of a faith are quite a different story.

I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. - Doug McLeod