God Rocks!!!!!!
Posted on: July 28, 2008 - 2:28pm
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God Rocks!!!!!!
Here's a stupid question: Can God make a rock so big that even he can't pick it up?
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Not by any religious deffinition. Speaking as an atheist god doesn't exist anyway so the question is irrelevant.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Honestly, I'm probably a rare case, but that question was one of the first issues that caused me to begin inspecting the tenants of my faith. It really bothered me, and I found that other religious people that knew about it sort of laughed when I posed the question. Although it's 'a dumb question' it has real ramifications when you begin to investigate it and its variations.
Well, it does for those who have faith, and that is, presumably, who the question is for...
If I have gained anything by damning myself, it is that I no longer have anything to fear. - JP Sartre
Whoa! Never heard this one before. You've really thrown us religious types into a tailspin.
I know (hope) this is in jest, but in seriousness, these types of questions are very firmly rooted in academia, which is famously out of touch with how the world actually works, how people actually feel, what people actually think, etc. If God does indeed exist, then the answer to this question is at very best irrelevant.
It's sort of like how each of Chuck Norris' testicles is biiger than the other. Where does it end? Is that why god is apparently incapable or unwilling to attend to the suffering of his children? He's too busy trying to make a rock he can't lift?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
How so? The ability to accomplish either task would inevitably negate the possibility of an all powerfull god.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Eh, because the ultimate answer is going to boil down to 'Can God? God is omnipotent, so of course He can. Being Omnipotent, God can do anything, including making himself no longer omnipotent. So, if God is omnipotent, then it follows that he can do it, but hasn't done it, and likely won't, because in doing so he would then render himself no longer omnipotent.'
So the answer is included in the question, and really, it provides no actual weight either way.
Which is a shame, because it's a question that does make people question their faith and critically examine what they believe in.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Foolish lil mortals and your tiny 3 dimensional thinking...
All god would have to do is create a rock big enough that he cannot lift it, then create a being that could lift it, thus completing both tasks, and after the rock was lifted, destroy the new being, and say that he did it! bam!
What Would Kharn Do?
Yeah, but if I was the super strong being I'd just chop god in the neck and steal his rock.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
god in all his forms exists outside all forms of reason. The christian one deals with the reason problems using the valuable academic subject known as theology.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a far more scientific method of dealing with reality
Can the FSM create a beer volcano that even he cannot drink dry?
Answer is simple, it depends on how drunk he was when he started.
Don't like that answer well I could call you a heathen unbeliever but I offer a suggestion drink a few beers, still doesnt make any sense drink some more. Trust me eventually it will all make sense trust me I know
Ramen
I'm boned. I quit drinking a few years ago.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
The alcohol consumption is considered by a minority of pastafarian scholars to be a story that should not always be taken literally. As it means act like you have drunk 25 pints of beer even if you havent actually got totally rat assed.
25 pints? So he's supposed to throw up and then pass out (possibly into a coma?)
Well.....I am typically pretty beligerant and lacking in what most people call "manners".....
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
if you take your time...say 8 hours sure it can be done, I went to Newfoundland with my wife a few years ago for a wedding. In 7 hours, 6 guys polished off 10 2-4's of canadian beer. I swore off drinking that much with them ever again after that night.
That's actually why I quit. I had reached a point where it took 18-24 bottles to feel a buzz.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
My thinking is that the answer, perhaps, involves gods presumed ubiquitous nature as well as omnipotence.
If god existed and made a rock so big that even he couldn't pick it up he could always suspend or pause his omnipotence so that he couldn't lift it. If god is truly omnipotent, he would have to have this capability.
It would be as if he were a weapon wielding warrior setting his capability of power aside or a wild west gunslinger, pulling his pistol from his holster and setting it up on the bar in front of himself for a while......
....like next to his beer....*drools*
....or.................. something....
(salivation...so close to salvation, only not)
Uhhhh, in this way, god wouldn't have to lose his omnipotence permanently.
My question is... If god has too much to drink, which way would the vomit go?
The only answer I could think of was that it would have to be omnidirectional.
hee-he
If god only had to suspend his retard strength then he could simply do so with something as light as a feather, or for that matter fake it.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
True, but I'm still confused as to why people are still hung up on the supposed necessity of omnipotence. God, in theory, doesn't have to be all-powerful--he just has to be powerful enough.
That's true. But the most influential and (frankly) dangerous faiths are centered around an omnipotent and infallible god. If the world was made up of deists and "live and let live" Christians I wouldn't care, but I can't turn on the news without hearing about religious based warfare and the encroachment on my civil liberties of people who have their heads up their asses and claim preposterous things. Until they kick back and enjoy tall frosty glass of "chill the fuck out" I'm going to keep pointing out why their stupid.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
You made me laugh so hard I spilled my beer and sprayed my monitor.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
SACRILEGE!!!! *Evil monkey point* BURN THE HERETIC!
What Would Kharn Do?
Except that as long as God retains the ability to become omnipotent again, the rock isn't too big for him to lift, it's only too big for him to lift right now.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Wait in line, you can burn what the Catholic Church leaves they have 1st priority in burnin' for all my unforgiven sins and blasphemy.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
nay, beer sacrilege takes precidense over biblical sacrilege
What Would Kharn Do?
Burn the evil one that caused the spill.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
A more important question is whether God can rock so hard even he can't stop the boogie beats.
When I was about 8yo (the beginnings of my transition to sanity) I got to thinking about the problem of evil. First, I wondered why god would create evil to begin with. Then I got to thinking about all the times god used evil in getting even with people. I could remember a few but I knew there were more. So I opened up my bibble and started skimming through it looking for passages in which he/she/it used evil for basically evil purposes. Gave up after a while because there were way too many to remember.
Anyway, I kept trying to figure out why god used evil so much. Even asked my pastor about it but, whatever crap he told me, it didn't sound right. Don't ask me to remember what he told me, that was damned near half a century ago. So I kept on thinking about and one day I had an epiphany! That Sunday I went to church and told the pastor that I'd figured it out. god was really satan! I even argued with the pastor for about half an hour before he told me to leave the church and don't come back.
Think about it, god using evil as a weapon against those who cross him, or those who merely annoy him in some small way. god used evil to torture, blind, maim and kill on hundreds of occasions. and what a better cover? That would also mean god
is not omnipotent, or he's dead.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
By jmm's earlier reasoning, I believe God can rock only hard enough so that the boogie beats continue unabated.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Clearly not. Have you heard Christian rock? Even the metal sucks by default because they're all like "I'll make you taste the flesh of JEEEESUUUUUUUSSSS!!!!1".
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Clearly not. Have you heard Christian rock? Even the metal sucks by default because they're all like "I'll make you taste the flesh of JEEEESUUUUUUUSSSS!!!!1".
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
They say the devil takes many forms.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
What's "enough?" Aren't we just moving peas around on the plate?
He's trying to. It's a very clear cut question. Is gods power so limitless that he can create something that exceeds his limitlessness? To put it another way: Can god create peas so big even he can't push them around on his enormous ethereal plate?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
And the answer remains the same: He can, by ceding his limitlessness. Such cessation must be permanent, however, or the created object does not truly exceed his limitlessness; ie: If God retains the ability to revert to omnipotence, then he can lift the rock and push the peas, he's simply opting not to.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
And around we go. The end result is still that no being can be all powerful. Everything has limits. If he can or cannot accomplish either task then the limitless nature of god is negated. In your solution is the admission that god cannot create a rock or pea that big, ergo he is not all powerful. Suspending his retard strength is pointless as it doesn't require him to surpass his limits, and could be done to make any existing object (a pebble for instance) too heavy for god. That's akin to faking it and therefore a copout.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Not at all. If God were to exist according to the definition you posulate, you could complete the task, he simply wouldn't. The question 'can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it' is flawed. A better one would be 'can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it and remain God?"
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
I think you just knocked a pea off of your plate.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
This is actually from another thread but is directly related to this topic and in line with the position 'BMcD' put forth here. So I hope you (BMcD) don’t mind me using these statements in this thread. (BMcD, you should receive a PM from me concerning having borrowed the quote from the other thread.)
As you’ve pointed out, if he renders himself no longer omnipotent then he would no longer be god. With that in mind and considering he is no longer god, is it really correct to say that it’s god that can’t lift the rock? In my mind that would make it a creature who was formally a god that couldn’t lift the rock. Not a god who can’t lift the rock.
I think the problem I’m having may be more to do with the nature of the title 'God'. In my mind I have it down as being a title more a kin to being deserved through qualifications rather than somthing that's intrinsic to the creatures'identity. Maybe this is flawed though?
As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,
But the light grows weak while under Yggdrasil. --clutch
This is question is mainly for the believers of the Abrahamic god (since they're the most annoying) or anyone else who claims the existence of an omnipotent god.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Not at all.
Indeed, which is why I postulated that the better question is 'can he make a rock so big he can't lift it and remain God?'. I totally agree that once done, he's not God. His ability to perform the act is predicated on him never performing the act. It's like that old Looney Tunes reel where Daffy decides he's going to 'out daredevil' Bugs and swallows a mixture of kerosene, gasoline, nitroglycerine, and gunpowder, shakes well, and then swallows a lit match, blowing himself up.
Bugs: "Great trick, Daffy! You're right, that was amazing!"
Daffy (ghost): "Yeah... but I can only do it once..."
Well, even the most ardent theist will tell you that no-one can truly understand the nature of God. To do so would be to attain omniscience. So don't worry about it. Just remember that whatever you think about God, it's probably wrong, cuz he's a sick, twisted, sadistic pedophile anyway.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Which usually comes after you refute the littany of things they claim to be god's will.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Ok I got it. It’s not that the question doesn’t create a contradiction in terms, it’s just that the initial question isn’t quite specific enough.
Of course as an atheist what I think about God is completely masturbatory and theoretical (laymens terms concerning my use of 'theoretical' of course). But that aside, I find myself completely at odds with the idea that even though God is beyond our ability to understand him (her/it /them) that someone could somehow move on to worshiping such a thing.
As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,
But the light grows weak while under Yggdrasil. --clutch
The initial question was plenty specific. It is an attack on the claim of omnipotence. Neither option can be claimed in the affirmative without negating the other option, therefore god is not omnipotent. Any attempt to find divine loopholes as far as I'm concerned, is conceding the point. BMcD seems to want a Swiss Army knife becase the great big Bowie Knife I provided doesn't have a spoon.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
I realize it's an attack on omnipotence, however if you include the idea specific to God having to retain his omni traits then it seems to work as a safety net protecting itself from the idea BMcD put forth. It's really the same question either way you go about it, but, the latter caters to the pedantic.
As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,
But the light grows weak while under Yggdrasil. --clutch
I simply believe in closing the loopholes before the Llamas and Paisleys of the world try to exploit them.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Not much to exploit. That's the kind of mental acrobatics I hoping to stir up.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.