Naturally Hell doesn't burn forever since there is no hell.  For hell to exist it would have to be physical since the chemical properties of combustion require matter in order to release energy as heat.  For our "souls" to experience pain in this fire our souls would have to have a working nervous system, hence our need to be alive since the very element of our being dead is having a non-working nervous system.

To date no apologist has ever given us a location of hell.

Is hell a closed system or an open one?  Given us a location will answer that.  If it is a closed system then it falls prey to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and, without a constant fuel source, will eventually burn out.  An open system would have to be quite sizable in order to be burning for eternity therefore it should be quite visible.  Since it isn't visible it's safe to say that there is no hell since it either burnt out, or is just too small to bother with.

So, as an Atheist, I don't worry about hell.  Not because of some notion that it is a temporary eternal hell, but simply because it's existence is quite impossible.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/is_hell_exothermic_gives_off_heat_or_endothermic_absorbs_heat

This message comes from a graduate of the Univerisity of Oklahoma Chemical Engineering Department via an acquaintance of mine who sends out a "Daily Silly" to a large group of people. It cites one of Dr.Schlambaugh's final test questions for his final exam for 1997. [Note: Dr. Schlambaugh is known for asking questions on his finals like:"Why do airplanes fly?"] This was an "actual question" given on a University of Washington chemistry midterm.

Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with proof.

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for temperature and the pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until All Hell breaks loose.
2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Therese Banyan during my Freshman year, that "It will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in that area, then (2) cannot be true, and so Hell is exothermic.

This student got the only A.

 

The fuss, George of the Cross, is while we don't believe, we are treated with scorn and threatened by people who claim to love Jesus. i.e. the fuss is all most of us want to do is live our lives and theists don't let us do that without us almost constantly having to look over our shoulders and in our food lest some "well meaning" nut deprive us of our right to live.

Please use paragraphs. I find it difficult to rummage through a verbal trash heap.

As for hell, I agree to an extent. My parents raised me as a fundamentalist thinking Hell would burn forever many people who remained conscious forever. As I matured, I studied the Bible, especially the doctrine of Hell. I contemplating the meaning of sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus, which translators often translate as Hell. I spent months tracing how many times the various biblical authors used those terms and how they used them. Eventually, I concluded that the fundamentalist, so-called literalist view was false. I still haven't decided on an exact interpretation yet. Does the fire incinerate the people, rendering them eternally unconscious? Or, does the fire purify them so they can enter heaven too? Both views seem to have support. The story of Sodom illustrates a support for the cessation of consciousness view. The numerous references to saving not some or not most but everyone supports the purification view. I think the texts might hint at the existence of two opposing schools of thought on the subject, just as there was two opposing schools of thought in ancient Judaism about the existence or nonexistence of an afterlife at all, though I haven't gotten around to doing further research on it.

Anyway, I ultimately left Christianity and looked into several forms of theism, ranging from the mystical theosophy to the practical deism. I considered myself a deist for a few weeks, which was how long it took for me to recognize that my acceptance of it was based on emotional credulity rather than rational justification. Hence, I abandoned all forms of theism.

My reasons for leaving Christianity had nothing to do with the fear of Hell. Even the liberal conceptions of Christianity did not work, because there is no rational justification for accepting it. Deism? No justification for that either. I see neither as a refuge of anything, except rational thought. I still use arguments against theists on the basis of such a horrible place. Why? Because it's a logical form of argument: if X, then Y. I use it to poke holes in people's worldviews to make them more skeptical about what they had adopted and what they might adopt in the future.

What justification (emotions and faith do not constitute justification) do you have for accepting the existence of a hell in any sense? If you cannot answer that question, I invite you to consider why you cannot.

I've an announcement to make.  Hell is real and its located in California.  It's real name is Bakersfield and churches are to be found on damned near every street corner.  Ok, that's an exaggeration, they're on every other street corner.  In dog we trust in the schools, a fundy on the school board another one in charge of the County Elections Office. Rednecks in abundance.  Yeah, it's hell alright.

There is a verse where Jesus says the torment will not end. The inconsistencies in the nature of hell just demonstrate that the bible is not the word of any god. It just stories made up by men. Some thought hell would be eternal torment others just a burning destruction. In any case it's torture.

I've visited Bakersfield once, and I agree that it is hell... or at least the front yard of hell.

Didnt they also rename one of their streets after that band Korn?

 

    Before i say anything let me get one thing clear. As you know i'm a Christian that is my conviction, my faith, my belief. Anyone who claims to be a Protestant Christian follows what the Bible says. I am 100% Bible follower, i want to make clear i'm defending the topic on hell on what the complete Bible says, not how if it is physically or scientifically possible. I believe God can manipulate science because he created the science (Genises 1:1). There is no location to hell because it is not burning yet, in light of the Bible. Hell burning deep in the bowels of the Earth, and people are suffereing right now, is A LIE! Hell doesn't exist, yet. This myth is not biblical and a lie that the Catholic Church has had since the Dark Ages. I'm not attacking Catholics but as a side thing if i didn't know Biblical truth, and true Christianity, if we took a look at history and the crimes of the Church i would be a profess athiest as well believe me. I't seems to me that you don't believe in "souls", well than do you believe in a "mind". Something that i always thought to myself the "mind" is the athiest way of saying "soul". I quick thing on the whole soul thing basically Biblically a soul is what makes a person, who that person is and basically everything attribute of the person that is not physical. For example deep satification in a persons "heart". There are somethings that a human needs that physical and material things can't give. We can use love as a example love is not tangeable nor physical, so why people put so much value to it, love is the first step to understand Christianity. Desire is another thing . But to explain the whole the soul burning thing is another myth. The way this myth was thought up of is pagan(Greek) look at the the human soul, this is a view that many other people believe, it's the belief of humans having an imortal soul. Because people belive that the soul can never die, when it is placed in "hell" all the soul can do is just sit an burn forever. I absouletey agree with that point you said that hell will burnout, that is 100% biblical.(Malachi 4:3). Explaining when hell will happened can be very complicated becuase you have to study alot of things in the Bible to get the topic of hell when it burns. if you are curious and want to know more. Listen to this sermon: <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/David_Asscherick/discover/18-The_Good_News_About_Hell.mp3>

The gist of it is the reason why there is a hell. To get rid of the evil and wrong doing that plagues this world. God doesn't want to people in Hell, the Bible calls it his "strange act" Isaiah 28:21. It makes no sense how people can believe in, and i guess this is where Christians look irrational and un logical, that someone would punish somebody for eternity for something they did for only 60 to 70 years of life. That makes no sense and that where alot of Christians are wrong. As for the scientific look on hell, if God is who he claims, all knowing and powerful, he is then he can bend his created science to do his will. It wouldn't be a matter of science it would be a matter of his power.

I pray that you do see him and find him God Bless.

-Jorge Cruz 

 

... is that it doesn't exist.

 

First of all I really appreciate you replying back to this. You definitely know what you are talking about. I really like how you said you studied and look for yourself. To be honest that's how i am, i don't believe nothing people tell me unless i see it in the Bible and is logical. I give you props on that because sometimes when i'm discussing and reasoning with people it frustrating that how they want to argue something they know nothing or little about. It's not smart if you talk about something you do not know about. I believe God gave us a brain and i must admit there times where most Christians don't use it.  I take my Christian beliefs very seriously and my faith is a intelligent faith, i leave nothing to blind faith, because that is weak faith. 

I'm very familiar with the Sodom and Gomorrah texts. Just a quick look at it in Jude 1:7 it says that they suffered eternal fire, is Sodom burning today? of course not, also because it says in  2 Peter 2:6 it says that they were condemn to ashes. What basically we have to figure out is what the Bible say in light of eternal fire, which the Sodom is used to show that fire in the bible doesn't mean eternal because they Bible says they were put to ashes. If you are still interested in knowing the truth i persuade you to listen to this sermon about hell: <http://www.yourvideos.net/hopevideo/David_Asscherick/discover/18-The_Good_News_About_Hell.mp3>. Also before you make a 100% complete decision about there is no God you should listen to this sermon from the same preacher, his name is Davis Asscherick and he give very deep intellectual sermons: <http://www.audioverse.org/displayrecording/31/DavidAsscherick-DoesGodExistDoesItMatter>

To answer your question about if there is an Justification of hell.

 

The purpose of hell basically to get a rid of evil, wrong doing and people who do it. Who rather do wrong than right. In light of the Bible Hell is the grave. To make it as simple as possible Hell is a place where the existent becomes non-existent. Hell is not punish nobody is basically just to get rid of. The reason why God uses fire  is this. For example, a piece of paper that is "evil". I want to get rid of this "evil paper". If i bury it, it still exist and there is a chance someone can just dig it up again. I put it deep in the ocean it still exist and someone can go down and get it. But if i burn the paper the evil is gone. Some people say well why not just take the evil out of the paper. Well to bring it back to people, you can only take out the evil if that is your decision. And if you decide you want to get rid of this evil we can't do it on our own we got to God to take it out, that’s is the whole point of Christianity. 

A sinner is basically someone who does wrong. We all do wrong no matter who we are, and almost 100% of the time we do wrong because of selfishness, we do wrong to please our desires and pleasure. The reason why this world is so terrible and screwed up because everybody is wronging each others and themselves. A Christian principle is love another, treat others like you would like to be treated. I ask you to imagine a world like that where, every body looked out for the other person instead  of ourselves. Even with disasters and death this world would be a utopia. I put deep thought and thought about it logically it would be a perfect world and just with that one Christian principle. That why I believe Christianity works. Basically that’s the human problem we just want to do wrong because we want to please ourselves, think about. That’s basically what sin is all about. Wrong is all around us it but most people don't care, most people are not concern about that ,people don't care this world goes to hell in a hand basket as long as they get to live there life, and what we they want. God wants to get rid of the human problem, the human pain, he want to make this world a perfect utopia, so he has to basically wants take out the trash, he has to get rid of the cause of the problem. Hell is not a prison it is a remover. But Christians see the wrong the in the world and in themselves so they believe and ask God to get rid of it. God can offer that to you, but its only your decision.

If you have any other questions or want to discuss something please right back at [email protected]. Also get back to me if you hear those sermons, I would like to hear your response to them. Why doesn’t Christianity work what is the problem with it.

 

 

 

 

A sinner is basically someone who does wrong. We all do wrong no matter who
we are, and almost 100% of the time we do wrong because of selfishness, we do
wrong to please our desires and pleasure. The reason why this world is so
terrible because everybody is wronging each others and themselves. A Christian
principle is love another, treat others like you would like to be treated. I
ask you to imagine a world like that where, every body looked out for the other
person instead  of ourselves. Even with disaters and death this world
would be a utopia. Basically thats the human problem we just want to do wrong
because we want to please ourselves, think about. Wrong is all around it but most
people don't care,  most people are not concern about that ,people don't
care this world goes to hell in a hand basket as long as they get to live there
life. God wants to get rid of it, he want to make this world a utopia, so he
has to basically wants take out the trash. Hell is not a prison it is a
remover. But Christians see the wrong the in the world and in themselves so
they believe and ask God to get rid of it. God can offer that to you, but its
only your decsison. The only to see if there is a God is to search for him with
all ones heart. But if one doesn't even try than of course one can't see if
there  shutting his/her eyes and covering there ears.  I wonder how
science came to be in the first place, is there something before science?

 

You base your claim on an erroneous translation. Bereshit in 1.1 has the form of a construct, not an absolute, so instead of "In the beginning, Elohim created", one would more appropriately translate it as "At the start of Elohim creating". Genesis begins with background information on the state of things. The action sequence begins in 1.3.

Genesis 1 does not teach ex-nihilo. In fact, it teaches against it. It says that land, air, and water existed "at the start of Elohim creating", meaning Elohim didn't bring those things into existence. Genesis 1 simply describes Elohim containing, separating, and moving things.

To give you a better idea of the structure of the text:

At the start of Elohim fashioning the sky and the terrain—the land was desolate and empty, darkness covered the surface of the deep, and the wind of Elohim hovered above the surface of the waters—Elohim said "Light!", so there was light.

I didn't concern myself so much with translating the text as structuring the verses. The first verse connects with the third in a logical sequence: At the start of Elohim fashioning ... Elohim said, Light! Before Elohim could fashion the world, he needed light to see what he was doing. The second verse serves as a parenthetical thought, bringing the reader up to speed about the situation so they would know what Elohim would see once he illuminated the area. The author hints that Elohim would feel disappointed after seeing the desolation but would be motivated to improve the area. The story continues, verse four onwards, telling of the ways in which Elohim improved it and how Elohim felt more and more satisfied as the work progressed. Never, though, does it speak of water, air, land, or spacetime itself coming into existence. 



The word "mind" simply symbolizes the results of electrochemical activity within the brain. I have not encountered any Christians who use the term "soul" to denote that. They tend to use "soul" as denoting something with an actual existence that lies behind neuronal activity.



The word "love" symbolizes an array of experiences within the mind when contemplating a person or object. The phrase "in love" symbolizes two minds sharing similar contemplations of one another. One would rightly regard love as intangeable and nonphysical for it merely symbolizes something and does not, itself, exist as something outside the mind.

Your argument relies on a fallacy of ambiguity. Consider the proposition, "love exists". That ignores the symbolic nature of linguistic expression. Symbols do not have an existence themselves, beyond sensations within the mind, and propositions like "love exists" would have one thinking that love exists independently of the mind when it doesn't. Similarly with "the mind exists." Mind itself does not exist beyond the sensations of the brain. Your argument in favor of the existence of god seems to rely on the same fallacy.



Malachi hardly ever comes to my mind when thinking about biblical interpretation. As such, I never mentally connected Malachi 4.3 to the lake of fire. I find that very interesting. As I said earlier, I have wanted to continue researching the topic to see if I can find two opposing schools of thought on the subject. Looking at possible cross-references and parallels between Malachi 4.3 and other canonical and apocryphal texts might serve as a good place to start. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Anyway, I shall not respond to anything else in that post or the one that follows, for those consists of little more than preaching. I enjoy conversation, the exchange of ideas on various topics, but that involves talking with someone, rather than at someone. If you want to discuss, fantastic, but please avoid preaching here as practically no one here appreciates it.

Before going to do other things, I must say that I found this hilarious:

Really? So you literally believe that bears malled children via god's magic wand because they made fun of a bald man? You literally believe that Lot offered up his daughter to rapists? You literally believe that god spread dung in the Levite's faces?

I am sure you do. And I am quite sure you have a sample of godsperm that magically got Mary pregnant? I am quite sure you have AMA peer reviewed studies on HOW human flesh survives rigor mortis after 3 days of death?

 And exactly HOW did Noah take care of dangerous animals like cobras, hippos, alligators, dart frogs and black widows? Let me gess...ABRACADABRA "POOF" God did it.

Go pick up a copy of any Superman comic book and put it next to your bible and read both one page each at a time.

 

Is 66.24 — And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jews of the time commonly used unquenchable fire as a figure of speech to denote an unsnuffable fire that continues burning until it has consumed everything and, by extension, to connote an unquellable judgment. It makes no reference to duration, only intensity. The valley of Hinnom, called Gehenna in Greek, was used as a firepit from the days of Phoenicians sacrificing children to Molech to the days of the Jews burning their trash and excrement to keep their city sanitary. Jews often used Gehenna metaphorically to refer to the lake of fire because it contained an unquenchable fire. (When Jesus basically said the Pharisees, the vipers, could not escape hell fire, Jesus used Gehenna as a metaphor for the lake of fire.) Nobody thought the fire of Gehenna would burn eternally, simply burning until nothing remained for it to consume. Gehenna, filled with a lot of material, became an excellent feeding ground for worms. This is where the "worm shall not die" expression comes in, meaning much would be burned.

Mt 13.41-42 — The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

A metaphysical naturalist could say that people tossed into a fire will wail and gnash their teeth. You seem to have been taught for so long the idea of Hell burning eternally that unknowingly inserted that notion into this verse.

Mt 18.8-9 — If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

The word they tried to translate as everlasting, aionis, contains the root aion, which means an indefinite period of time. Aionis means during an indefinite period of time. Young's Literal Translation offers age-during, which is ackward but acceptable. The word everlasting carries the idea of eternity while aionis does not. One can only determine the duration of time that aionis represents by referring to the context. In this case, the translators have seen it fit to interpret the words, undoubtedly from the standpoint of their own doctrinal beliefs, instead of simply translating them. Also, note that the amount of time a fire burns has little relevance to how long people would suffer if tossed into the fire. (Apply this reasoning to Mk 9.43-48 and Mt 25.41,46.)

2 Thess 1.8-9 — In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Aionis. Remember what I said about context? The context in this verse leaves us with a clear interpretation of aionis as eternal. If you destroy something, it remains destroyed forever. The verse basically says heathens shall die and remain dead. (If they remain conscious, were they destroyed? Of course not. 2 Thess 1.8-9 contradicts the idea of eternal suffering because eternal suffering necessitates an eternally undestroyed state.)

Rev 14.10-11 — The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

Your translation has departed from everlastingness and eternality at the end of the passage. They must have realized that "the smoke of their torment ascendeth for an infinite number (plural aion) of eternities (plural aion)" made no sense whatsoever. It says "for ages and ages", implying a long but not necessarily infinite period of time. That wasn't satisfactory for them though, since it didn't suit their fancy of pulling eternities and infinities from the text. They contorted to produce "for ever and ever". Note how "ever" is singular while the verse contains plural aions. If one insists on using the word ever, the verse would be more appropriately translated as "for evers and evers." That's obvious gibberish. In most cases, I would say the translators are mistaken, confused, or something like that, but this rendition of Rev 14.10-11 is deliberate distortion. To use a figure of speech, those translators were some tricky devils. Also, remember what I said about the so-called everlasting fire. The amount of time it burns, or smokes, has little relevance to how long people remain conscious within it.

The "truth" of hell is such a self centered threat. It is the same emotional crap an abusive spouse will pull on their mate. "You have two choices. You can stay and love me. Or, you can try to leave and I will beat the shit out of you".

Let me clue this moron in on something. |"Hell" is a fictional place, just like Never Never Land in Peter Pan.

There is no magic needed to say that people do bad things. There is no magical man in a red leotard with a pitchfork manipulating the neurons in our heads causing us to do bad things.

This was a very good start, I completely agree with this. Your email went downhill from there, very fast.

Okay i  understand for the most part of what you were saying about the thermodynamics and the law of gas, it is a unique way at looking at hell,  I'm in my 3rd year of Mechanical Engineering in Walla Walla University (lol i know its wierd name). Hell is not a thermodynamics problem.  With all do respect, that's a problem athiest that they think "the God of the Universe"  can be figured out by a math problems, like somethings so, so grand can be figred in a simple thereom Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

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. The problem in figuring out God with atheist, agnostics, and other skeptics is that they see God as a theory that has not been proven. They see God as a Math problem or a mathematical theorem that has to been be proven and if he is not analytically proven that he doesn’t exist. Think about it for 1 second, if God who we claim he is "the Sovern God of the Universe and the Great Creator" then shouldn't he have no bounds, science is something that is wrap around his finger. He can break all therodynamics, physical laws and propeties because he is all powerful. That might seem like a simple answer but doesn't make sense if we can apeal to the claim that God can do everything. First off hell doesn't exist, hell is basically an infirmary when you put something in there it is completley consumes and it ceases to exist, hell in the Bible is refered to the second death (Revelation 20:14 ). God wants to get rid of the wrong in this world so it will cease to exist, it's not about burning people. People who stand for evil, wrong doing, will but God doesn't want to do it, but it's the only way because the human race keeps getting worse and worse. Soul don't go there because when you die everything (your body and soul) dies just like your mind, by the way the word "mind" is the athiest way of saying "soul". Your mind is not tangeable but you know you have one. Love is not tangeable but you know you feel it. 

I agree with you 100%. It is unjustice to punish someone for eternity, forever and ever, for something they did only 50-80.  But like i said a eternal hell is not true. Doesn't make sense and this idea in a Christian prospective challenges the number one fact of Christianity is  God is love. How can the Bible say he is love and he is willing to torture people forever and ever. It doesn't make sense and is unBiblical, to use the irrationality of a eternal against God is not correct because its not in the Bible. It like trying to accuse a women of being a man. The Bible when in talks about eternal fire its talking about it in a relative term not in literal sense. The hell doctrine is made false doctrine, in a Christian prospective.

 The whole thing about Satan is this, God creates everyone with a freedom of choice. In the Bible it says that Satan made a choice to go against God. It was his own choice.

But i just got a quick things about justice. Just like a convicted cereal killer has done enough crimes to give him the death sentence. Many athiest in fact just about all athiest believe that we only live one life and once that life is up its over. And your dead forever. No heaven, no reincarnation, nothing your dead forever and your done. Hell is just that death. Hell in Greek is transliterated in as Gehenna which means the grave. If God is real then an atheist should have no Hell because it is the grave, death. You lived your life the way you wanted to now its over.  Hell is for the evil. God lets us do whatever we want but at the end of this world he wants to make a new one. Free of pain, suffering, evil and hate. If you don't know God it doesn't mean your going to hell God will judge your Character and by the things you have done.

Jorge Cruz

Well, fuck, that doesn't look like too bad of a place to spend eternity.