Science & Judaism

peppermint
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Science & Judaism

My Jewish friend knows I'm an atheist and has no problem with it, but annoys me when he claims he had read articles showing how science complements Judaism. I've argued with him several times, but its clear hes been indoctrinated from childhood and probably will never give up his religion. He's a very intelligent and deep-thinking person, but prone to gullibility on certain matters.

I have here an article that is obviously fallacious to a keen atheist reader, but would make logical sense to my friend. Is there a clear-cut way I can show him the fallacies of the article?

1.      Which is correct: Evolution or Creation?   (top)

     In the Torah, the word for creating something from nothing is mentioned three times during the creation account. The first time was right in the beginning[1], the second was at the beginning of the creation of animal life[2], and the third was at the creation of soul of man[3]. This would seem to indicate that these things required some special act of creation. It was not possible to begin the world, or to move from plant to animal life, or to get to the higher, spiritual dimensions of man, based on evolution alone.

     On the other hand, this indicates that all others aspects of the creation did have an evolutionary dimension to them[4]. Thus we see that G-d says: let the earth produce the grass, etc[5] or else words like (he formed, he made) יצר and עשה (ויעש), which indicate something from something are used[6]. In fact, the commentators tell us that everything was created on the first day in some potential form[7], and was then developed into its final form on the assigned day. Even the body of man was considered a part of the evolutionary process[8].

     This is not to say that Judaism and evolution are in complete agreement[9], and indeed the radical secular bias amongst certain paleontologists has prevented scientists from trying to resolve some of the differences. But it does show that they are not as far apart as is commonly thought[10].
more on Evolution

 

2.      Age of the Universe   (top)

     Science claims that the universe is between 10 and 20 billion years old[11], whereas according to the Torah, there were 6 days of creation plus 5761 years. Although the scientific dating may be inaccurate[12], there has been no serious scientific challenge to these estimates[13].  Several answers to this challenge talk about two types of time.  The Maharal reminds us that time, being that it is a part of the created world, is a relative concept[14], and indeed, according to relativity theory, it expands and contracts[15]. This allows Dr. Gerald Schroeder to calculate that about 15 billion years in the center of the universe translates into 6 days on the edge of the universe, where the much heavier gravity slows time down significantly. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan comes up with a similar answer based on traditional sources[16]. Similarly, Rav Shimon Schwab talks of two types of time, cosmic time and earthly time. The 6 days of creation are counted according to cosmic time[17], during which period millions of years may have passed according to our measure of time[18]. Rav Dessler brings the Vilna Gaon and other sources to show that time before the sin of the First Man was far more contracted[19]; whereas that same time would be perceived today as stretched out into billions of years.

     There are several other approaches to this problem, using similar lines of logic[20]. Almost all these opinions existed before the scientific community ever suggested a much longer age for the universe, and therefore this is no mere apologetics. On the other hand we should point out that the scientific community has not established a final age for the universe – the figure changes every year, and I am confident that any remaining differences on this issue will be resolved by further adjustments in the figure which scientists suggest[21]. (See the answer to the next question.)

3.      Are science and Judaism opposed?   (top)

     Judaism has always been pro-science, requiring that current scientific knowledge be factored into Halachic (legal) decisions. Science is ongoing and constantly changing; but, with time, scientific theories are getting closer and closer to Judaism. Thus the Big Bang points to the fact that the world had a beginning, implying that it emerged in a creation[22], the attempt to combine the four forces of matter[23] illustrates the
scientists belief that everything is ultimately one unity; Einstein’s theory that matter is energy males it easier to believe in spirituality; while probability allows G-d’s providence and our choice their rightful place.  There are many other examples of this

[24].

     There may still be disagreements, but we can wait: science is still on the move and that movement is rapidly in the direction towards Judaism. As science gets closer and closer to Judaism, it will yet reconcile its final differences with the Torah.

 

4.      Are there limits to Scientific Inquiry?   (top)

     Scientists deal with facts not values[25]. "Science tells us how to heal and how to kill; it reduces the death rate in retail and then kills us wholesale in war; but only wisdom...can tell
us when to heal and when to kill. … The scientist is as interested in the leg of the flea as the creative throes of a genius....
[26]."

     A doctor is as qualified to pass judgment on when life begins and ends as a chef is on which foods are carcinogenic or a computer programmer about which way the PC market is about to go.  All are likely to sound intelligent; none have more than an educated layman's chance of being right. Thinking rigorously ethically is a highly specialized business. Judaism, amazingly, is not only able to address all these problems, but the principles of Judaism anticipate the issues. More than ever, science needs these principles to guide it through issues of ever increasing complexity, ever closer to the beginnings of life itself.

     Victor Weiskopf writes of his participation in the Manhattan Project, the American WW2 initiative to make the atomic bomb: "Today, I am not quite sure whether my decision to participate in this awesome-and awful-enterprise was solely based on the fear of the Nazis beating us to it. It may have been more simply an urge to participate in the important work my friends and colleagues were doing. There was certainly a feeling of pride in being a part of a unique and sensational enterprise. Also this was a chance to show the world how powerful, important and pragmatic the esoteric science of nuclear physics could be."

     After the defeat of Germany, the single, most powerful reason for working on the bomb had been removed. But work continued because, "By then we were too involved in the work, too deeply interested in its progress, and too dedicated to overcoming its many difficulties ... the thought of quitting did not even cross my mind." (After the war, Weiskopf did quit working on the project.) (in The Joy of Insight, Passions of a Physicist, Basic Books.)

 

6.      How do Faith and Reason relate?   (top)

     Since nothing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, Judaism ultimately requires a leap of faith אמונה[36]

. But this does not mean that it is indistinguishable from any other faith. There has to be a way in which we can distinguish our faith from adherents of other religions. Otherwise anything goes.

     As we explained elsewhere, Judaism has empirical roots in the Sinai experience. For a Jew, faith is a rational extension of what he knows to be true. Faith is what allows us to
stretch our horizons into areas we cannot know for sure (which actually is most of our life). Without this faith, we would be very limited indeed. But that does not mean that you can believe what you want. Reason is what ensures that what we believe in is the most rational and empirically supported of all the alternatives. For example, when we say that we believe in G-d, what we mean is that G-d is the best explanation for the facts of the world as we see them

[37].

     Judaism values reason so highly that it is at the center of our Oral Law. Something which is purely logical needs no further proof, and is considered as binding as if a verse had been written in the Torah. But Judaism also recognizes that faith based on reason alone would be a cold, philosophical faith, not a real relationship with G-d. (See Belief in G-d, first section). We are multi-faceted and capable of complex relationships with things. A Jew is simultaneously critical and believing, skeptical and passionate, questioning and trusting. it is this marvelous little bag of rich responses, which makes commitment to Judaism so rewarding.  

 

7.      What difference is there between Superstition and the Supernatural, Magic and Mysticism?   (top)

Superstitions are the beliefs which people have without any basis in fact. The Supernatural however, is a plane or rather several planes of reality which exist between us and the Almighty

[38].

Whenever G-d puts a force in the world, it can be used for both good and bad. Prophecy is the expression of bringing a positive and accurate wisdom down from higher realms[39]. The abuse of this is Kishuf – magic. Mysticism, the Kabalah, is the wisdom which describes all those realms between us and G-d in His Essence. Both prophets and mystics were and are able to use their connection with these higher planes to bring certain forces down to earth. But this was not their primary purpose. Prophecy’s primary job was as a revelation of G-d’s will and purpose for the world, and later to strengthen and clarify that revelation[40]. Prophecy included the Kabbalah which, once brought down, could be passed on by those privy to the inner wisdom of the Torah revelation. The primary purpose of the Kabbalah is to understand the cosmic impact, which even our seemingly trivial actions have, and to therefore motivate us to achieve greater heights of spirituality[41].

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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I was going to respond to

I was going to respond to this, but point #7 made me laugh so hard my sides now hurt. I must go rest.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Quote:The Maharal

Quote:

The Maharal reminds us that time, being that it is a part of the created world, is a relative concept[14], and indeed, according to relativity theory, it expands and contracts[15]. This allows Dr. Gerald Schroeder to calculate that about 15 billion years in the center of the universe translates into 6 days on the edge of the universe, where the much heavier gravity slows time down significantly. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan comes up with a similar answer based on traditional sources[16]. Similarly, Rav Shimon Schwab talks of two types of time, cosmic time and earthly time. The 6 days of creation are counted according to cosmic time[17], during which period millions of years may have passed according to our measure of time[18]. Rav Dessler brings the Vilna Gaon and other sources to show that time before the sin of the First Man was far more contracted[19]; whereas that same time would be perceived today as stretched out into billions of years.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

-The universe does not have a center, the concept has no meaning in the context of space-time. A bounded universe with a center is not part of modern cosmology. This immediately nullifies the notion even without discussing the fact that it attempts to make meaningless assertions that have nothing to do with Relativity

-Nowhere in relativity theory does it state that the universe expands and contracts. What Einstein's equations do state is that the universe is expanding. The rate of expansion is determined by the density of matter in the universe.

-This statement " 15 billion years in the center of the universe translates into 6 days on the edge of the universe" means absolutely nothing. Time is only relative to the frame of reference of the observer. It does not "slow down" with respect to points in space-time, insofar as space-time itself is an absolute referent.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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 Good eve,I hope  you are

 

Good eve,

I hope  you are well.

 

I noted a theme of Z claims...

Not explicit, but apparently implied.  My apologies if I missed something.

 

If 'Science Claims' then science has gained voice.  Imho this is a good thing, chuckle.

If 'Religion Claims' then it appears that I missed when Religion is silent.

Evolution V. Creation ... Imho one should let evidence guide the hunt.  Serious, Evolution will only provide answers that are just looks at the evidence, while Religion will provide you with all answers.  I.e. A rational choice for the uncomfortable is Religion.

Age of the Universe ... One can note that even the idea of Time is being mulled and twisted and tormented by

SCIENCE...  Mean ol' Science.  Religion can provide soft landing for this...  1 =1000 and etc.

Science and Judaism?  Which relies on the revealed word of the everpresent and ineffable Big Being?

Obviously if you don't wish to piss off an ineffable big being you should subscribe to Judaism.

I have 2 paws. 2 +1 is as far as I can go.  My apologies.

...

F'n 4's.

tq

 

 


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Say god and I laugh .....

Say god and I laugh ..... geezz , what ain't god ? ,   I don't get it , did I say I laugh    heck,  what ain't god ?  WTF is this god babel ? This god shit is really pissing me god off ....  to hell with you all,  if you ain't god !    

   


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Judiasm like every other

Judiasm like every other religion is totally incompatible with reality never mind science but there is a very strong tendency in judiasm to ignore irrational parts of their faith like errr 'god'

I know in the London Brights people of a jewish background make up a significant part of the organisating committee. Yup jews control the world even atheism Smiling

My parents are from a jewish background and tend to insist i'm jewish something I have no truck with. I'm  sure there are anti -science religious jews but they just don't seem to be very loud compared to their secular scienctist brothers