Do you just want to take from others because they have something you'd like to have too? [YOU RESPOND]
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Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: [General Question] General Question/Defend my God/Disgruntlement-Mail
Leo sent a message using the contact form at http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
Hi y'all!
First off: I am a practicing Roman Catholic who loves his God, his Church and his Pope. And I am NOT pissed off by your page. Yes, you strike me as a bit too martial and sassy sometimes so that your message comes across rather insecure and spoiled-brat-like, but that goes for some Christians as well, doesn't it?
I stumbled across your page for the first time today and read a few entries as well as some of the comments. I also took a look at you "Irrational Precepts".
Jerry Falwell already is kind of "eradicated from Earth", isn't he?
Denying the Holocaust happened? D'accord.
The claim that science is dogmatic? It is as undogmatic as religion, while scientists can easily be as dogmatic as theologians.
Saying that evolution is just a theory, not a fact? Why? This is just an opinion, which should be as legit as the opinion that there is no God, even if it might sound stupid and preposterous to you.
Giving religious beliefs a special pass above criticism? D'accord. But the best critics of religion I have met are the people involved in religion from within, not without.
The claim that the Bible is a good source for morality. You would have to resort to the kind of self-aggrandizing semantics and logical "I can pee further than thou"-isms I have encountered in the comments to maintain that the Bible is not exactly that. And don't even start with the OT. I am talking about the New Covenant.
Thinking that logicians use logic to limit peoples thought. Wow! You want to eradicate thinking? Brave New Atheist World, I guess.
The claim that mystical experiences can give us knowledge? If you really just object that and not mystical experiences themselves, I suggest you go and get one before you pass judgment.
Religious terrorism / Fundamentalism / Born again Christians. D'accord, provided you mean fundaMENATLism and not FUNdamentalism.
Holistic medicine used in place of scientifically verified medicine. D'accord.
Apart from that I would really like to know if your mission statement is serious. I might be living on planet Catholic but I am not blind and deaf. And three years of studies in Rome did not give me the hard evidence I would need to subscribe to the statement that we are out here to "eradicate" atheism. Why, then, the hostility? For you faith might just be a question of choice. For me it is a vocation. Don't you think that this fact at least deserves a little respect? Am I the suspect and the enemy just because there's nutters out there who don't know how to properly live a Catholic/Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever life? Am I to assume that the dozens - no, make that hundreds - of young nuns, monks and seminarians I have met in the past years are just being the helpful, gentle, kind, intelligent and witty people they are because they set up a huge and clever plot to deceive me into believing that the majority of the future Catholic Church is made up of people who can actually change this world for the better?
I am perfectly at ease believing in Christ no matter if there is one billion of Catholics out there or just a handful. Why do I get the feeling that you will not feel secure and at ease until you really eradicated religion? Are you looking for a way to live your life while simultaneously staying true to yourself or do you just want to take from others because they have something you'd like to have too?
I am sorry if that sounds annoying, but I have a hard time seeing the sense in what you are doing.
Ciao,
Leo
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"Faith" and religion have gotten a free pass as taboo subjects for critique for far too long. You see it as hostility only because you subscribe to the idea that such critique is "off limits". You would not see the same level of critique as hostility were it aimed at more traditional subjects like politics or sports fandom.
As for your comments on the "irrational precepts": did you actually read the arguments for them? It doens't much sound like you did.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Hey, Leo, good to hear from you.
In science, a "fact" is merely a point of data -- a measured and quantified observation. A "theory" is a well-established description of a process. Theories are much more important than facts. Theories explain the facts. So evolution through natural selection is more than a simple fact; it's an explanation of the data we've accumulated over years of observation and testing.
So, no, "believing" in evolution is not the same as "believing" in God. It's above mere opinion. You may not accept evolution as an accurate description of the data, but then you'd be wrong.
"Believing" in God is an entirely different situation. There is no evidence for God, nor does the supposition God explain anything whatsoever.
Accepting evolution as a description of one of the processes of life is rational. Supposing God exists is not rational. That doesn't make it wrong, it just means it is not rational.
(I, however, believe the supposition of God is wrong.)
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
"why then the hostility?"
Because religious people want me to give up my ability to reason for faith in superstition. They want to legislate how I should live my life and raise my child. They want to make my life more difficult so that they can live blissfully in ignorance.
I agree that there are aspects of life that as a 3 dimensional being I don't understand. However, I am not going to force others to believe in a fairy tale concocted to explain these aspects of life and I absolutely do not appreciate others trying to do so.
How can I want what you have when you can't tell me what it is you have?
Get those pathetic fascist stereotypes of atheists out of your head.
YES, we would like to see the death of religion. BUT not in the genocidal tactic you would suggest. We believe that when we present others with an alturnitive to superstition and magic and present our case, intelectually honest people unafraid of the self examination of ones own claims, that more and more people will see that belief in magic is not needed to live life.
No we are not insecure. I would think that someone who believes that "POOF" Mary magically got pregnant, has more to be insecure about than someone who knows that a sperm and egg make a baby.
What you fail to realize is that to us, you are in the same boat as any believer in Allah and in the same boat as the ancient Egyptians who falsely believed that the sun was a thinking magical being that cared about their welfare.
You have nothing to fear from atheists physically. You do have a lot to fear intellectually because claims of super natural beings throughout history either die or change because new ideas replace old ones.
We simply want to encourage others to THINK about what they claim and hopefully they will see what we see. That god|(s|) are nothing but a human invention in an attempt to fill a gap.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Hi Leo. I don't have time to respond to all your points but hopefully others will.
Sometimes when people are repeatedly confronted with a laggard or constant drone, it can become irritating to them. This is why some Atheist comments, on this site and elsewhere, can be, on occasion, abrasive to anyone entertaining the idea of a creator of intelligent design. The questions (and statements) we are presented with are nearly always old and tired, as opposed to something new and thought provoking. In other instances we may feel the need to reply with humor when we deem that the situation calls for it. Bladder relief notwithstanding...
It has been my experience that these comments to which you refer, are rare... more rare than the Atheist who can make valid points using the Bible to "show his legitimate work".
I find it interesting that you have a problem with someone 'resorting' to semantics, in order to make a logical and well-reasoned point. As you must know, it is necessary for people to agree on the meaning of words prior to any true discourse. Additionally, I find an unnerving correlation between your perception of semantics; that is, in this case, individual word meanings as opposed to entire biblical passages as christians might interpret them, and your obvious desire to avoid the old testament in favor of ONLY the new, thus ignoring the overall meaning of the entire bible.
Honestly, I could care less if religious people walk the earth or not as long as they leave me in peace. It'd be very nice if they could see the error of their ways, but that comes with time if it does at all. I just don't appreciate having my freedom to be non-religious infringed on.
Theists have nothing that I want. As far as I am concerned, they depend on strength and comfort from lies and that is a very dangerous road to tread. Lies are unstable; if they were to be debunked, what then? Atheists don't have to worry about that kind of thing, so I feel we're living the better lives here
Believe me, Atheists have a hard time seeing the sense in what you Theists are doing too
Tickling Sakura's Funnybone
The OP wrote : "I am sorry if that sounds annoying, but I have a hard time seeing the sense in what you are doing." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, religion is terrorism , child abuse, dogma poison. Wake the fuck up .... you appeaser of idol worship .... god dammit ....
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