Observe the fact that every man has the right to think for himself. [YOU RESPOND]
Offline From: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 3:42 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [General Question] An innocent proposition
Sarah sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
I would like to make a simple proposition. I do not claim by any means to
be perfect or better than anyone else because of what I believe in, but I
would like to present to you a simple challenge. My proposition to you is
that you would observe the fact that every man has the right to think for
himself. You call Theism a mind disorder and you're motto is
Believe in God? We can fix that. Is not what you are doing no
better than what others would do to downplay their rivals? The United
States was built on the foundation of freedom, and we were given the
freedom of speech and religion. But why must anyone use sedicious speech
to slander others. Why can we not simply choose to leave each other alone
and let people think for themselves? I know that I am not as experienced
on the matters of the world as those who have been on this earth for many
years. I admit that I am only a young adult, just starting out in the
world. But it does bother me to think that instead of simply accepting
the fact that I have my own beliefs, people will challenge me and try to
downplay me. I do not go around preaching my beliefs to others and
telling them that my way is the only way, so why would I want others to
treat me that way. It has gotten to the point it's almost as bad as if we
were terrorists ourselves, of a different sort. I know I make mistakes and
do wrong things in my life, but at the very least, even if my way of
thinking is wrong and there truly is no deity, at least I stayed true to
my beliefs, however erred you may view them, and at least i found
something that I would be willing to die for. Isn't that all that matters
is that you stick to something until the end and believe what you want,
instead of what others tell you to? Whether you take this as an offense
or an outrage I cannot control that. But at least consider my challenge
and take to heart that Atheists are not the only ones who have rights to
freely be who they are. If you are going to take a stand on something, I
beg of you, please be a good sportsman and teamplayer and don't fowl the
opposition in the process. Fighting and slandering gets the world
nowhere. Besides, Theists are not the only ones out there. There are
many other religions with different gods and deities as well. So why do
we choose to single out only one instead of all no matter what religion it
is? I can only hope that you understand what I am trying to say and that
you might consider a change in your attitude. All I know is, whether I
would or not, I would not want to follow any religion where the people
advertising and witnessing to me would so unjustly discriminate against
another and slander any other religion. Does it not seem a hateful cult
then, rather than a choice of religion, to teach that you should not love
all, and rather hate them for what they believe? Thank you for listening
to me, whether you really heard me or not, time will only tell.
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Yeah, I'll start doing that when theists start doing it. I'm only here to defend my right to think for myself, a right I see them regularly taking away by removing proven verifiable things from the education of our children, stopping research in to new fields which could produce better medicine etc etc.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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Atheists are world-class at this, actually. It's the other side that has a problem with it.
Remember: "Sins" include desires and even doubts. "Sin" is the original Thought Crime. Atheists didn't come up with that.
No. The other side's "sacred texts" tell them the Creator of the Universe has authorized them to enforce obedience and conformity by any means, including physical violence and killing. We just want to talk.
In the teeth of opposition from dogmatic religions, you may be sure. Just like every other meaningful personal and social freedom since the Enlightenment.
Assuming you actually know what "seditious" means... it's a proper response to those advocating theocracy. Likewise with "slander."
Ask the other side. It's reality that will not leave theists alone. And oh how they hate that.
You are confusing attacks on yourself with challenges to your ideas. And if those ideas are nonsensical, delusional or likely to interfere with your management of reality... what then?
In other words, not terrorists at all.
Jim Jones, David Koresh and Mohammed Atta would strongly agree.
Again, nobody knows this better than Atheists. Atheists, freethinkers, skeptics - whatever you want to call 'em - are the engine behind the social and legal progress that developed and defends these rights.
Is that a poultry attempt at humor?
Unless you win...
"Other religions" with "different gods and deities" are included under THEISM.
Neither would I. Now all you have to do is demonstrate this "unjust" discrimination, etc.
Again the confusion of speaker and speech.
Nobody at RRS hates theists as PEOPLE. That would be completely absurd since they'd remain PEOPLE even after de-converting, so we'd have to keep hating them! The opposition is to IDEAS and the CONSEQUENCES of those ideas. Sorry for the caps, but you don't seem to get this crucial point.
Atheists are world-class at this, actually. It's the other side that has a problem with it.
Remember: "Sins" include desires and even doubts. "Sin" is the original Thought Crime. Atheists didn't come up with that.
No. The other side's "sacred texts" tell them the Creator of the Universe has authorized them to enforce obedience and conformity by any means, including physical violence and killing. We just want to talk.
In the teeth of opposition from dogmatic religions, you may be sure. Just like every other meaningful personal and social freedom since the Enlightenment.
Assuming you actually know what "seditious" means... it's a proper response to those advocating theocracy. Likewise with "slander."
Ask the other side. It's reality that will not leave theists alone. And oh how they hate that.
You are confusing attacks on yourself with challenges to your ideas. And if those ideas are nonsensical, delusional or likely to interfere with your management of reality... what then?
In other words, not terrorists at all.
Jim Jones, David Koresh and Mohammed Atta would strongly agree.
Again, nobody knows this better than Atheists. Atheists, freethinkers, skeptics - whatever you want to call 'em - are the engine behind the social and legal progress that developed and defends these rights.
Is that a poultry attempt at humor?
Unless you win...
"Other religions" with "different gods and deities" are included under THEISM.
Neither would I. Now all you have to do is demonstrate this "unjust" discrimination, etc.
Again the confusion of speaker and speech.
Nobody at RRS hates theists as PEOPLE. That would be completely absurd since they'd remain PEOPLE even after de-converting, so we'd have to keep hating them! The opposition is to IDEAS and the CONSEQUENCES of those ideas. Sorry for the caps, but you don't seem to get this crucial point.
Boards don't hit back. (Bruce Lee)
Right. So when you run into someone who's preaching your beliefs to others, telling them it's the only way, you tell them to stop doing that ?
Finding something you're willing to die for is not a good thing. It's not even very hard.
Try finding something to live for.
I'm glad you freely choose to check your ego at the door. Most theists visiting this site spew hate and venom condemning and judging people they have never met. This is unfortunately done on both sides, but that's how it is.
I do not have to respect your beliefs at all. I just have to respect your right to hold such fancifull views. I do not have to give you special treatment because you claim to be a member of the "true" religion. In what way do atheists infringe on your rights? Last I checked christians were the majority of the population in the US and a recent survey placed atheists in the top spot of least trusted minorites. If you truly believe that slandering does harm then perhaps you should talk to your fellow christians and get them to stop spreading lies about atheists.
I fowl the opposition only when truly needed. If you are a decent human being then I have no problems with you as long as you don't try to push your agenda on me. You can believe in celestial teapots for all I care. However, the christian majority in the US sways considerable, although lately floundering, control of US policy. In a small town next to my old home in Illinois an atheist couple adopted a child from Massachusetts. They had previously adopted (20 yrs prior) from the same adoption agency and had done all the paperwork out of state. Within three week of having the child home, the state came and took the child from the couple because the states rules can preclude atheists from adopting. Wow, this sounds like a sure case of discrimination to me, but it's ok because if it had been a christian the community would have been up in arms. This is why there is so much "anger" in atheists. It isn't anger as you might understand it to be but an outrage of what is clearly unfair.
Who has said here that we hate christians. I can say your belief in god is a delusion and still not hate you, right? If your god exists then I can say I hate it, but then again that doesn't mean thing against christians. However, I do not believe your god exists any more than thor or isis exists.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
Hi Sarah. You seem well-meaning, but you have a lot of misconceptions about the world and about atheists. Because of this, your post comes across as quite offensive, although I know you didn't mean it that way. It's like if a straight person said to a gay person, "Why don't you stay in the closet and stop spreading AIDS?" Do you see how that would be offensive to a gay person? It contains a hidden accusation based on a stereotype and an uniformed opinion. Your post has tons of these kinds of prejudices.
We do already. You are assuming we don't. This is your first prejudice. Get to know us first before you start pretending you know what we are about.
Would you say the same thing if our motto was "Believe the Earth is flat? We can fix that." Why do you think believing in God deserves some special respect that other beliefs don't have? You are assuming that belief in God deserves special respect.
Get a dictionary. Seditious and slander have specific meanings which have nothing to do with what we are doing here.
It is not slander to say, "What you believe is irrational, and here's why."
If only it were that easy. The problem is that many theists use their beliefs to make decisions about how they treat other people, and how they vote, and what policies they support. *They* do not leave *us* alone. Their beliefs influence their actions, and their actions affect us.
Nothing wrong with that. We were all young once, and I don't think it's appropriate to discriminate against someone purely for age.
Here is a major misconception you have about the world. You are not your beliefs. You are a human being, your beliefs are ideas in your head. They are not the same thing. When I say your beliefs are irrational, that says nothing about you personally. I accept that you have your own beliefs. But I will challenge your beliefs, and this does NOT mean that I am 'downplaying' you personally. If anything, I am 'downplaying' your beliefs. You are not your beliefs.
First, we do not preach our way is the only way. Second, you made a post here with the express purpose that "[we] might consider a change in [our] attitude". So, you are free to try to influence our attitude, but we are not??? That is a double standard, and another example of your prejudice.
You certainly are 'going around preaching your beliefs'. Your post is full of your beliefs. It is hypocritical for you to say that you are not trying to spread your beliefs. But you know what? I have no problem with you trying to spread your beliefs. That's what Free Speech is!!! We are also spreading our beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But when you say that we shouldn't spread our beliefs, in the very same post that you are spreading your beliefs, that is hypocritical.
Do you think speaking our beliefs is as bad as terrorism??? Think about that for a while. How is saying "Theism is irrational" even CLOSE to flying a plane into the twin towers or setting off a bomb in a subway? Do you see how this is offensive? It is like telling a black person that demanding his civil rights is equivalent to killing a baby. It's totally ridiculous.
Do you think the 9/11 hijackers deserve respect because they 'stayed true' to their belief that killing thousands of people was a good thing to do? Those hijackers really 'found something to die for'. Does that make it good? No! It really DOES matter what you believe, because your beliefs affect your actions. Many Nazis believed that following orders from Hitler to kill Jews was more important than the lives of those Jews. Should we respect those Nazis because they 'stayed true' to their beliefs? NO! Everybody on this planet stays true to their beliefs. The problem is that their beliefs affect their actions, and they act in horrible ways because of their beliefs.
Now, I'm not saying you're a Nazi. I had to use an extreme example to show you that your statement makes no sense when it is put to the test. Most people do not have such terrible beliefs, and most people do not do terrible things. I'm sure that you wouldn't, for example. However, it doesn't have to be something terrible for an action to be bad. Millions of people voted for George Bush. Individually, a single vote isn't such a bad thing. But when lots of people make a bad decision, it can have a large effect. Remember, George Bush didn't just get elected once, but TWICE. Why didn't the American people learn from their mistakes the first time around??? You know why? Because not enough people were standing up and challenging their beliefs.
No, that is a terrible way to live. If you believe something that is false or irrational, it is NOT a good thing to 'stick to it until the end'. That is backwards. When you go to school, you go to learn things. Sometimes, what you learn challenges what you used to believe. Is it better to remain ignorant, or to learn? The pursuit of knowledge is one of the most amazing and wonderful things we can do. It is backwards and dangerous to hold on to dogmas and traditions and refuse to question what you believe.
It is not a choice between 'believing what you want' and 'believing what others tell you to'. A better way is to believe what makes sense and what is true. We have a wonderful ways of finding what is true, such as rational thinking, logic, reason, and science. How do we know that the Earth goes around the sun, and not the other way around? It sure looks like we are stationary, and the sun goes around the Earth each day. But through careful study and observation, and testing ideas through observation, we discovered that the Earth actually orbits the sun. If we just 'believed what we wanted', or 'what others told us', then people would still believe that the sun goes around the Earth. But science proved itself correct, challenging the beliefs of people who believed because of religious dogma or error-prone intuition.
Of course I take offense at your prejudiced view of atheists. We are not challenging anyone's rights. In fact, we are defending people's rights to believe or not believe in religious ideas. It is you who seems to be trying to shut us up, keep us quiet, to deny us our right to Free Speech.
We are not fighting (using violence) or slandering anybody. That is another prejudice and assumption on your part.
Another misconception about the world, and about atheists. We ARE challenging anyone who believes in any god, whether it's Jesus, or Allah, or Krishna, or Vishnu, or any other god. A theist is anyone who believes in any god, whether it be one god (monotheism) or many gods (polytheism). An atheist is anyone who does not believe in any god (no gods, or 'atheism').
I can only hope you take your own advice.
The only one unjustly discriminating and slandering here is you.
We do not teach either that 'you should not love all', nor that you should 'hate them for what they believe'. We do not hate people. We do hate certain beliefs that are dangerous. Beliefs are not people. People are not beliefs. They are not the same.
Let me ask you a question. Where did you get all these crazy ideas about atheists, and about what we do here on this website? Did you get it by asking questions? By challenging your own preconceived notions? By investigating and learning? By finding out what is true?
Or did you get these ideas by 'believing what you want' and by 'believing what others told you' uncritically and without questioning?
Think about it. Really think about it.
Likewise. I know you didn't mean to be ignorant and offensive, but let me assure you that you were. What are you going to do about that? Are you going to continue going around spreading hypocritical ideas without learning from your mistakes? Or are you going to start *thinking for yourself* and challenging what you believe?
You see, it is people like yourself that need to have their beliefs challenged. And we are here doing that. You are proof that the RRS is important and necessary.
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No one should dispute the capacity of human empathy. You desire the autonomy of your own mind free from dictation. What makes you think atheists are any different?
We are not out to oppress anyone despite your false impression. Your autonomy as an individual is not in question. The claims a person makes, ANYONE, on any given subject should be questioned. Not in terms of government saying they can or cannot say something. They should be questioned to demonstrate and test and falsify the validity of any given claim.
The wise person is unafraid to give up on bad information when proven wrong. We are here to challenge people on their notion that they need magical friend in the sky. We don't think you need ancient myth to live your life.
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OP wrote - "You call Theism a mind disorder and you're motto is
Believe in God? We can fix that. Is not what you are doing no
better than what others would do to downplay their rivals? The United
States was built on the foundation of freedom, and we were given the
freedom of speech and religion. But why must anyone use sedicious speech
to slander others. Why can we not simply choose to leave each other alone ...." //// ~~~~~~~
Well , worshiping any idol is a mind disorder, God of Abraham is an idol invention, and idol worshiping effects me because we are a earth community that must defeat all separatism .... One Earth ..... One People .... NO GOD BEFORE YOU, BEFORE ME, I am what I AM, as YOU are too...... 100% god ..... and if you disagree , you are the enemy to heal ..... No Master
..... and so I have come to divide you from the "master" idol worshipers, hypocrites, fools of false promises .... No peace, no appeasement with idol worshipers, of any dogma-ists .... of any fashion. To be xian, to be labeled etc, is to be the fooled enemy to heal, .... of what I AM AS YOU .... 100% the nitty gritty shit ....
Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
Atheism Books.
I'm perfectly ok with leaving religion alone... but if that's what religious people want then they're going to have to play by their own rules. For example, I'm fine with leaving science out of the church house... so long as the religious people can leave their religions out of the science classroom. I'm fine with the idea of not taking my atheism into the court house and respecting people's first amendment rights... so long as fundamentalists will stop trying to legislate religion based discrimination like that being perpetrated against gays and lesbians. I'm fine with the notion of not trying to make my lack of belief into a governmentally supported world view... but looking at the text on this five dollar bill... it doesn't look like Christians feel the same way.
I would be delighted to leave people's personal faith perfectly alone.
But that's not the kind of situation we seem to have here.
From my point of view it seems like what we have are masses of Christians scrambling to push their faith into the public sphere and to discriminate, disenfranchise, and otherwise devalue those of a different faith or of no faith at all. When a rational person raises their had and says, "hey wait a minute... how is the Defense of Marriage Act not discrimination based on religion?" or "just one second... Genesis is nice story but it doesn't quite cut it as science."
oh no...
Then everyone just gets themselves in a tizzy.
You're private faith is none of my business.
But your continued influence on public policy makes it my business.
Every second that someone spends praying is a second they're not helping their neighbor.
Every dollar that someone hands a priest is a dollar that's not putting food in the mouths of their neighbor.
Every religion-based law that prevents me from:
means that I am being prevented from living my life. Just like smokers, religious folks can do what they want until it harms me. It's harming me. We don't let smokers suck on the Camels in the ice-cream store, and letting theists do as they wish is just as dangerous.
Ultimate personal responsibility requires a peculiar type of moral courage that theists may never achieve.
plot_thickens
Nicely said, thanks for posting, and welcome to RRS, spreading the "good word", atheism.
Atheism Books.
Thank you, I AM GOD AS YOU, for the welcome! I can't respond to your post -- it's rendering weird. Oh well.
And I agree with your name, it's self-evident, although we're discovering the sentience may not be confined to humans... we might all be gods. Oh no, tree-worshipping!
Ultimate personal responsibility requires a peculiar type of moral courage that theists may never achieve.
But thats the problem, you aren't
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
plot_thickens
YOU are indeed GOD as I .... as all is connected, as all is god.
My weird post is a re-wording of basic scripture. It's an atheistic bible rendering of Jesus I find rather obvious. Most of my posts are designed to convert the idol worshipers, as I say "save them christians" ....
Atheism Books.
Hi Sarah, I would just like to say I appreciate what you're saying here, when I first came to this site I felt similarly about the RRS's 'mind disorder' conviction and got involved in a few debates on the subject but in the year I've been a member here I've gotten to know the core members and understand better their motivations for taking such a direct and brash approach and I even agree that it's somewhat called for in light of the very real and very offensive push for theocracy that is going on in our developed and enlightened world.
So I recommend you visit the RRS more often and get a sense of what the people here are trying to accomplish with those impertinent promotional tools you've mentioned, I think you might be pleasantly surprised.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
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Thanks Eloise, and that is true for even a lot of us life long atheists. Enough is enough. Toleration of unhealthy superstition is unwise. It's not being mean, it's caring. This is why I've taken to voicing an indignant atheistic jesus, too maybe wake up the moderates, and rattle the fundys.
I vote Eloise gets her own RRS badge .... a panentheist, is not a THEIST. An atheist is not a theist. Cpt Pinapple has her own badge ?????
Atheism Books.
Agree, IAGAY. If I remember right, Cpt_ is badged an agnostic deist.
Surely, Eloise, if she desires it, deserves her own badge.
In regards the OP, I think, Sarah, you are confusing the terms, "think"(thought, thinker) and "believe"(belief, believer).
The problem, as I see it, is that your personal belief system could not have been arrived at through wholly rational and logical thinking.
You speak of your beliefs and that you don't preach them to others, yet you must know full well that many theists, christians included, do try to proselytize, even if only subtly. Where I live, I run into them everyday.
So when you state that you wish we would, "observe the fact that every man has the right to think for himself", I can point out that the entire post you wrote, instead, seems to be stating the following... Observe the fact that every man has the right to believe however he wishes.
Feel free to rebut or correct me if I'm wrong.