God disproves himself

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God disproves himself

Well I got in a discussion with a Christian and realized something god actually disproves himself. Well the first point addressed why god would create humans in the first place however it proved to be something more destructive to gods existence.

Christians argue that god always existed and don’t have a beginning however lets think about this for one second if point 0 represents the moment when god started to created our universe what did he do before this ? Exist ? How long did god exist alone with no need for humans ? One millennium ? A googolplex of centuries  ? A  long period of time and he didn’t need humans.

However we need to realize that god existent a entire eternity  , and  then suddenly and magically  the eternity ended and this  is impossible , because if we regress in god-time he never did have a beginning the time that god existed before creation of us is infinite and can not end !

So is it going to be :
A) god did have a beginning
or
B)god never created us because it takes a entire eternity to arrive at the point 0.

On the side note god existed a insane amount of time without humans and never felt the need to create us (in a entire eternity) so why would god create us if he existed forever without us and didn’t have a problem ?
 


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On first read, I think yes ,

God of dogma disproves itself, indeed.

On first read, I say yes , and that is why I proclaim, "You are god as I" , as to beg , "what the fuck ain't god ? "  .....     Religion is fucking lame .... LAME LAME LAME.

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If we place God within the

If we place God within the universe to be subject to Time, then that still doesn't really give you what you're pushing for.

An infinite amount of time in the past doesn't prevent you from getting to now, it only prevents you from backtracking to a beginning point from any point in that infinite array of time.

However, if God created the universe, then God exists outside of it, and outside of Time, and so whatever action he took would have occurred at no time at all, though the effects would each have been felt within the Universe at some point in Time. I'd guess (because it seems to make sense) that these effects would take the form of some natural phenomena, and so would appear to be felt at the points in time when such phenomena would be predictable to occur. From the perspective of the external Enactor, asking 'when' it was done would be like asking the next person you talk to face to face "Where is 'now'?"

But then, having to come up with these explanations is one of the reasons why Occam's Razor suggests it's far more practical to just set aside the 'god' idea for just as long as we can get along without it. God requires the reverse of Occam's Razor... call it... Beaver's Cleaver: Whenever a simple explanation appears to account for the observed phenomena, Beaver's Cleaver requires the observer to immediately think of six or seven completely unfounded and excessively complicated ways to account for the same phenomena less accurately.

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Ahh, my religion, from the

Ahh,  my religion, from the messiah and prophet , son of gawed ,

English  logician William of Ockham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

                            

                                 

 


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BMcD wrote:If we place God

BMcD wrote:

If we place God within the universe to be subject to Time, then that still doesn't really give you what you're pushing for.

An infinite amount of time in the past doesn't prevent you from getting to now, it only prevents you from backtracking to a beginning point from any point in that infinite array of time.

However, if God created the universe, then God exists outside of it, and outside of Time, and so whatever action he took would have occurred at no time at all, though the effects would each have been felt within the Universe at some point in Time. I'd guess (because it seems to make sense) that these effects would take the form of some natural phenomena, and so would appear to be felt at the points in time when such phenomena would be predictable to occur. From the perspective of the external Enactor, asking 'when' it was done would be like asking the next person you talk to face to face "Where is 'now'?"

But then, having to come up with these explanations is one of the reasons why Occam's Razor suggests it's far more practical to just set aside the 'god' idea for just as long as we can get along without it. God requires the reverse of Occam's Razor... call it... Beaver's Cleaver: Whenever a simple explanation appears to account for the observed phenomena, Beaver's Cleaver requires the observer to immediately think of six or seven completely unfounded and excessively complicated ways to account for the same phenomena less accurately.

Ops here is where you have some misconceptions I used the word “god-time” to describe the timeline for god if god lacks a time dimension he is a cripple and actually nonexistent. The sill argument that if you cripple god he somehow can perform magic is nonsensical if god posses no god-time he is unable to interact or do any thing because without the passage of time he only is a frozen mass lacking the ability to do a thing or create because you need to have a change of your structure in time to make it. And eliminating one dimension (time) for god you are in fact giving a argument like

“ god can bend 3D space because he is 2D and can not interact with 3D space”
Agene this disproves god permanently. Remember for god to understand or interact he needs to change ( memory card registering events) if he haze no god-time he is frozen forever like a person in a cryogenics chamber unable to move or understand a thing.

I understand Occam's  razor however I would like theists to answer this because I love playing theology games there is no mistranslation or out of context. And it’s a impossibility to doge this problem  its like to say that you can make a square circle if you take away the smoke and mirrors it’s a plain old contradiction and down right silliness from the theist apologetics “god is a genius because he is retarded and not a genius” that how silly all Christian apologetics sound trying to answer this problem.
 

 

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

God of dogma disproves itself, indeed.

On first read, I say yes , and that is why I proclaim, "You are god as I" , as to beg , "what the fuck ain't god ? "  .....     Religion is fucking lame .... LAME LAME LAME.

   "Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it"

"People who don't want their beliefs ridiculed shouldn't hold ridiculous beliefs."

"All LORD above you"  is idol worship, the devil of "wrong thinking" ~ me

 

Well I agree Laughing out loud.

Can I ask you something  are you a pantheist ?

 

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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carx wrote:Ops here is where

carx wrote:

Ops here is where you have some misconceptions I used the word “god-time” to describe the timeline for god if god lacks a time dimension he is a cripple and actually nonexistent. The sill argument that if you cripple god he somehow can perform magic is nonsensical if god posses no god-time he is unable to interact or do any thing because without the passage of time he only is a frozen mass lacking the ability to do a thing or create because you need to have a change of your structure in time to make it. And eliminating one dimension (time) for god you are in fact giving a argument like

“ god can bend 3D space because he is 2D and can not interact with 3D space”
Agene this disproves god permanently. Remember for god to understand or interact he needs to change ( memory card registering events) if he haze no god-time he is frozen forever like a person in a cryogenics chamber unable to move or understand a thing.

Well, obviously God would have to have some axis of progression (for us, it's 'Time'), but if that axis of progression isn't Time, but a different dimension (perhaps #11 or #17, whereas Time is #4), then God might be having a full and happy life in Godverse or whatever, with plenty of Godfriends, and one (insert unit of 17-dimensional movement), he decides to create the 4-dimensional universe. Now, all of Time within that 4-dimensional universe exists at the (very small unit of 17th dimensional movement) of its creation, just like when we make a ship, the entire length of the ship exists at the moment the ship is made. From the perspective of anything within the creation, God's existence through Time is infinite, because God created all of that Time. From God's perspective, however, his existence through (17th dimensional progression) need not be infinite. God, on the axis along which he progresses, might in fact be quite mortal. But we wouldn't be equipped to see it.

Quote:

I understand Occam's  razor however I would like theists to answer this because I love playing theology games there is no mistranslation or out of context. And it’s a impossibility to doge this problem  its like to say that you can make a square circle if you take away the smoke and mirrors it’s a plain old contradiction and down right silliness from the theist apologetics “god is a genius because he is retarded and not a genius” that how silly all Christian apologetics sound trying to answer this problem.

Well, here's the thing: It's all a matter of perspective. A square circle? No problem. You just need to figure out how much mass you need, and where to place four of those mass configurations, to make a path of constant curvature appear to bend in 90-degree angles when viewed from perpendicular to the plane of the circle. Kinda like how light, which travels in a straight line, appears to bend toward massive objects (gravitational lensing). The light's not really bending, the space through which its traveling is distorted by mass.

 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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God doesn't really have to

God doesn't really have to make itself proven or not, my view of god just makes it irrelevent. I have many problems with the creation of mankind as pets, toys or whatever a god needed to satisfy some innate desire. If you believe the bible god created the angels but a third fell from grace along with "satan". What was the necessity of creating beings that would be known to cause the down fall of your pet project (humans)?

I will say god, if one exists, had to have a beginning. Well, unless someone can explain to me how this could be without having to profess some certain amount of faith, because god is just isn't an explanation. All things have to have a beginning unless someone can prove to me otherwise. Yes, it's amazing that so much matter exists in the universe but attributing the existence to god is lazy.

I think the term for a god that lives outside the cosmos is an acosmic god, wow kinda starts with an "a" like atheist huh.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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carx, no I'm not a

carx, no I'm not a pantheist. The ideas represented regarding consciousness make no scientific sense to me. I do appreciate that it views god of abe dogma as wrong, and think it's a positive and helpful  ideology to help free people from traditional religion.  

Dawkins said , it's sexed up atheism. Sounds about right. My very cool sister is pantheist.

I write the way I do, using religious words etc, to make traditional god concepts silly, and to broaden the atheists debating tools. I say it makes more sense to call the story jesus character an atheistic buddha like thinker, than anything remotely resembling the teachings of organized christianity.

We can both deconstruct and reconstruct 'god' and  'jesus'. Why let the religious own these words?


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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:I think

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

I think the term for a god that lives outside the cosmos is an acosmic god, wow kinda starts with an "a" like atheist huh.

Indeed. As an atheist myself, I hope you don't think that my suggestions are intended as justifying god. I'm simply postulating how such things might be possible. I also might get to sleep with Sarah Chalke, but I'm not gonna go investing any belief in it. Eye-wink

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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:If you

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

If you believe the bible god created the angels but a third fell from grace along with "satan". What was the necessity of creating beings that would be known to cause the down fall of your pet project (humans)?

Also, just as a point toward accuracy: The Bible doesn't reference "The Fall" at all. That's in the Book of Enoch, which is not one of the 'canonical' books of the Bible, and it's no-where near a third of the host, nor is Satan involved in any way. The disobedience involved is Azazel's, and he and others among the Watchers set to observe Mankind fall prey to lust, begetting the Nephilim, a race of giants. For this, they're sentenced to wander the earth as formless spirits of malice, ie: demons.

At no point in any of the texts does Satan disobey God. Satan appears to be a faithful agent of the divine, administering tests to the faithful that God has signed off on.

It's all bunk, of course, but when criticizing even bunk, it's helpful to be accurate. Otherwise when errors are pointed out, they call the entire criticism into question.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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BMcD wrote:Well, obviously

BMcD wrote:

Well, obviously God would have to have some axis of progression (for us, it's 'Time'), but if that axis of progression isn't Time, but a different dimension (perhaps #11 or #17, whereas Time is #4), then God might be having a full and happy life in Godverse or whatever, with plenty of Godfriends, and one (insert unit of 17-dimensional movement), he decides to create the 4-dimensional universe. Now, all of Time within that 4-dimensional universe exists at the (very small unit of 17th dimensional movement) of its creation, just like when we make a ship, the entire length of the ship exists at the moment the ship is made. From the perspective of anything within the creation, God's existence through Time is infinite, because God created all of that Time. From God's perspective, however, his existence through (17th dimensional progression) need not be infinite. God, on the axis along which he progresses, might in fact be quite mortal. But we wouldn't be equipped to see it.

 

Yes I totally agree . And now we decided that we need to answer the question where did god came from or what created him in god-time. And here is the point where Christian heads explode because the pastors explanation is insufficient.

I would love Christians to answer this  because if god existed a infinite amount of time it disproves gods ability to create or proves that god actually doesn’t need us.

BMcD wrote:

Well, here's the thing: It's all a matter of perspective. A square circle? No problem. You just need to figure out how much mass you need, and where to place four of those mass configurations, to make a path of constant curvature appear to bend in 90-degree angles when viewed from perpendicular to the plane of the circle. Kinda like how light, which travels in a straight line, appears to bend toward massive objects (gravitational lensing). The light's not really bending, the space through which its traveling is distorted by mass.

 

Well a little to tricky for me I would say a round cylinder that at one of its ends is connected to a cube. In a 2D plane this object would be a circle yet at the same time a square. Because the different objects would be hidden in a unreachable dimension. However this object can be only a circle or a square at one moment in time not at the same time.

I think this little set of questions will be the crown Jull in my unholy trinity of logical disproves of god. The first one is why trust god if he could be only deceiving you and the second one is the disprove of the concept of all knowing simply giving a matrix scenario for god. Remember theists don’t use Occam's razor and they argue for 101% knowledge about god.

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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:carx,

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

carx, no I'm not a pantheist. The ideas represented regarding consciousness make no scientific sense to me. I do appreciate that it views god of abe dogma as wrong, and think it's a positive and helpful  ideology to help free people from traditional religion.  

Dawkins said , it's sexed up atheism. Sounds about right. My very cool sister is pantheist.

I write the way I do, using religious words etc, to make traditional god concepts silly, and to broaden the atheists debating tools. I say it makes more sense to call the story jesus character an atheistic buddha like thinker, than anything remotely resembling the teachings of organized christianity.

We can both deconstruct and reconstruct 'god' and  'jesus'. Why let the religious own these words?

 

Well I understand now , thank you for your clarification.

Rock on man.

 

EDIT :Ops sorry I double posted

 

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I've seen theists explain

I've seen theists explain that God exists outside of our space/time; that he exists extradimentionally, or in a way we cannot perceive.

Some of the same theists adamantly deny the existence of Zeus and Odin, due to lack of evidence, oddly enough.


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Obviously, they are not part

Obviously, they are not part of Odin or Zeus' special Elect, to whom they have imparted special gifts of understanding and perception!

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About "theists". Pantheists

About "theists". Pantheists and Panentheists, I find little to disagree with, especially  as teacher RRS  Eloise  presents herself. But of course she is usually over my head,  as I know little about QM and the detailed parts of science. My disagreement with basic pantheism etc, is really a scientific one regarding consciousness, and I have mostly only my intuition to go on, and that ain't much, but I don't worry about it. I actually laugh about it.  Me gawed, as You ....

    

 


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Hmac wrote:I've seen theists

Hmac wrote:

I've seen theists explain that God exists outside of our space/time; that he exists extradimentionally, or in a way we cannot perceive.

Some of the same theists adamantly deny the existence of Zeus and Odin, due to lack of evidence, oddly enough.

 

Actually its impossible to be out side of any axis and exist if you go “outside “ of 2D space you don’t lose the X and Y axis you simply gain the Z axis. So you cant get out side of space and time you can be only reduced to a lover dimension to not have the Z axis and get 2D and reducing god from having any kind of axis is retarded can you imagine a object occupying 0 space in the X axis , 0 space in the Y axis , 0 space in the Z axis and ZERO space in the time axis ? While possessing no other axis ? Well this object would be nonexistent , If theists subconsciously think that god is nonexistent then they incorporate words that simply say this in a more technical way this or they are border line retarded and grape every nonsensical defense to rescue their god and feel fuzzy inside.

And the problem with we can not understand god is simple if we cant understand him how can they be cretin that they are going to heaven after all “we can not understand god”. And who made human minds so that they can not understand god well according to Christians god himself so god fucked up seriously on this one.
 

 

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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