Kids without religion
Offline One of I Am As God As You's recent comments got me thinking about how I'm raising my son. I'm teaching him that religious myths are on par with movies and books he loves. I plan on getting more into the complexities of why people latch onto religion as he gets older and can think about such ideas. But we all know how pervasive religion is here in the United States. Religion is pretty and is designed to draw people in. I want to be able to prepare him mentally as much as possible to not rely on the religion crutch later in life.
So, for those of you who were raised atheist (or those who have raised kids without religion), what advice do you have beyond just teaching that religion is myth? Did you go to friend's churches just to see when you were little, and what did you think of that? Have you seen friends drawn into religion later in life? If so, do you know why exactly they decided to turn to religion? Anything from your experience that might be helpful to think over would be great. Thanks.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
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I wasn't raised atheist, but one of my friends is raising two young children atheist, and I love his approach. The first thing is that he doesn't give religion any undue attention. That is, he doesn't go out of his way to talk bad about theists, or to say they're not smart, or anything like that. He and his family just live their life as well as they can without even including religion.
The other thing I think is really important is that he thinks of himself as an educator as well as a parent. Every time he and his children are together, he tries to find a way to make it into an exercise for critical thinking and problem solving. He has a deal with both his kids where he rewards their school efforts by buying them any book they want from the bookstore. That way, he's teaching them that while school may sometimes be boring, learning is always fun when you get to pick your subject.
When it comes to talking about religion, he does his best to let the kids reach their own decisions by leading them through the thought process, and it works well -- because he has taught them to think critically. When his daughter asked him about a bible story she'd heard at school (a public school!) he didn't tell her what to think about it. He asked her what she thought. She said it sounded like a fairy tale, but that the people who told it to her said it was true. He asked if it was more likely that a fairy tale was true or that the person who told her was wrong about it being true. She thought for a moment and said, "I guess So-and-so must be wrong. It can't be true if it's a fairy tale."
Mission accomplished.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I was raised atheist. My father was once (apparently) a very active Christian with several conversions to his name, but when he finally discarded his beliefs, he was rather serious about "not believing" as well. So when we kids arrived on the scene, we were really brought up with the Bible, so that we would know what was in it before the first Christians would start preaching to us.
Unfortunately, then we moved to a village where (then) more of the locals were Christians of a very, very conservative brand, who were extremely hostile to secular newcomers, and took part of this aggression out on the newcomers' children, which was not nice at all, and I don't think my -or any of the other secular parents- were quite prepared for the viciousness of it all.
But anyway. One thing that was very important to especially my father was that we would not "just say or assume anything"- he all but demanded that we would know our sources or evidence for just about anything we would come up with, and he would challenge us every time we would, in his eyes, "talk nonsense". Which -especially during simple table conversations about everything and nothing- could be rather tiresome. Like all fathers, he may have overdone it a little, but I still love him for it, even though I did not always back then
Ok... first, read this thread, particularly my exposition on positive and negative reinforcement:
Game theory, parenting and why Hobbes was (partially) in error
Then, read this article, paying particular attention to the part about imprinting:
Free Will: Why we don't have it, and why that's a good thing.
When you're done with both of them, come back and finish reading this post.
(Jeopardy Theme Plays)
Ok. Thanks. Now, notice the difference between these two approaches? The parent I mentioned turns critical thinking into a positive experience, and rewards it with positive reinforcement. School, while it is sometimes a drudgery, leads to getting any book they want, which leads to learning about anything they want. Negative leads to positive leads to positive.
In Yaerav's example, we can see that the mission was accomplished, but that there are certainly some residual mixed feelings towards Dad. He was well meaning, but took a very authoritarian approach to teaching atheism instead of mixing positive and negative reinforcement into a consistent formula where the child would associate critical thinking with good rewards and not thinking critically with negatives! That's the whole trick to socializing anyone, whether it's a child or an army recruit or a new secretary. We try to associate positive reinforcement (not necessarily material reward) with behaviors we want and negative reinforcement with those we don't. Socialize people to want to do what we want them to do, as opposed to forcing them into doing it for fear of retribution.
Now, think about the reality that we are not free willed individuals in the colloquial sense. That is, we are not free to think anything we want to think. We are who we are, and our experiences have molded us. While we are still extremely adaptable, we have deeply rooted programming that shapes our beliefs and personality. What is done cannot be undone, only painted over. Remember this when you are feeling particularly emotional around a child.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Heh, I did rub it in, too- and been on a little "spiritual rollercoaster" before I had my feet back on the ground too
And the best part is, in the end I managed to convince him that Chögyam Trungpa and Krishnamurti go very well with atheism, so it all worked out well. I guess it's a law of nature, but in the end he learned something from me, and I, in a roundabout way, learned exactly what he had been trying to teach me all along
Let me take a stab in the dark. By any chance, do you think your spiritual rollercoaster might have had something to do with doing your best to prove to your dad that you were your own person, and could find your own path?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I wasn't raised atheist, wasn't baptised either. My parents divorced when I was young and I lived with my mom until I was 13. Growing up with her, she never pushed religion on me or said I needed to go to church. I could go to church if I wanted, it was my choice. Living with my dad, religion just wasn't talked about. Not because it was being avoided, but, because it was a total non-factor.
Growing up, I had a lot of bad experiences with religious people, which pretty much sealed the deal for me on the kookiness of religion and how useless it is. Mormons being some of the worst that I have ever had the displeasure to meet. I did go to church with friends who went to church and I always felt out of place and very uncomfortable and couldn't wait to get out of there.
I guess, giving your kids the choice might be one way to go about it, but, I like the idea of equalling it to Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings as far as how real the stories are.
Hamby, thank you. I very much like the thoughtful explanations I've seen you consistently give on many topics. I have seen how positive reinforcement works so much better than negative. You're right, working towards something rather than away from something really does help a kid more in the long-term. I haven't gotten to those links yet, but certainly will soon.
Yaerav, I don't mind hearing some about what to avoid too. Your upbringing reminds me a little of my own. I grew up in rural America (named village in any other country) with extreme religion that meant a childhood of ostracization. I definitely want to avoid this type of experience for my boy. Thanks for the reminder that just thoroughly teaching "Religion is bad" is not enough. (I'm glad to hear that you and your dad have more of a give and take relationship now.) Did you ever want to go to church when you were little?
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
Growing up in Denmark, you'd have to go against the rest of society to be strongly religious, so for me it was easy. But even so I do think a little bit of my experience applies. Firstly, I think a good way of teaching children to be non-religious is to teach them that whatever they believe, they have to arive at themselves. That is, if you are constantly telling them: "that's just the way it is, because I said so" they'll learn that authorities have the answers, and you needn't question them. But if you tell them: "That's the way it is, and here's why", they'll learn that you only have to believe someone, if they give good reasons for it.
A while ago, I was out for a walk with my niece (7 years old now), and she pointed out to me that the ducks we saw in the pond we're two females, and one male. She told me that the brown coloured ones were girl-ducks, and the brightly coloured one, with the green and blue feathered head was a boy-duck. I asked her, why do you suppose that is? And when she said she didn't know, I told her:
"Scientists say it is because of something called evolution. The boy-ducks are pretty because the they want to make an impression on the girl-ducks, so they can mate with them, and the boy-ducks who where best at impressing the girl ducks in the past, where the ones with the prettiest feathers. So over millions of years the boy-ducks kept getting prettier and prettier, because the prettiest ones, were the ones that had the most babies."
She asked something along the lines of: "But why are some prettier than others? They all look the same to me?" (I love that kid! Smart, isn't she?)
I told her: "You know how people are always telling you that you have your father's nose, and your mother's eyes? Well you look the same as other kids your age, but you are slightly different, and the reason you are, is because you get your looks from your mom and dad. When a boy-duck, that's slightly greener in the feathers than the others, have ducklings, his sons will have slightly greener feathers too. And when this goes on for millions of years you can imagine that they can change quite alot."
The conversation went on in this vain for some time, but my point is that I would do my very best to always answer her questions truthfully, to the best of my ability, and to say, "I don't know", when appropriate. She learns that she should only buy an explanation if it makes sense to her, and she learns that grownups don't know everything, and that if they are good grownups (to her, I am a good grownup) they aren't afraid to admit it.
By the way, the conversation took a turn, because she noted that with people, it's often the women that make themselves pretty for the men, and we talked about that for a while, and how there could be evolutionary reasons for that too. Notice how kids instinctively see humans and animals as different versions of the same thing (animals, that is). Kids see it as selfevident that we are animals too (though they probably don't use the word "animals" since they understand the linguistic distinction). They just don't see how there is a fundemental difference, and you can cultivate that, by letting them use their own conclusions to understand what you tell them.
Felicia, my niece, knows that we, her parents, and her uncles, like fantasy. Her father's read "The Hobbit" and many other fantasy-books to her, and I have seen "The Labyrinth" and "Star Wars" and alot of other of my own favorite films with her (translating to Danish along the way, since they don't come with Danish dubbing). So to her, it's no surprise that grownups like fantasy tales, and we don't have to tell her: "This is just a story". She can draw her own conclutions. When Christmas comes around, we sing carols, and the like, and we don't tell her: "This is just a story" then either, because she's allready drawn that conclution herself.
I suppose my point is, if you teach your son never to defer to authority, but always believe something, only because it makes sense to him, preasts and prothelitisers will have a hard time convinsing him of anything, because he'll keep asking them questions ( "Why are there so many religions? How come Jesus could rise from the dead when nobody else can? Why doesn't God just take us all to heaven right now, if he loves us?" Et.c.). he'll know that good grownups, that he trusts and loves (that would be you) aren't afraid to say: "I don't know", and will always say that, and never: "You don't know, but I do, so you'll just have to believe me".
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
That's one of the benefits of religion. If you were like that instead of that long explanation all you would have needed to say was "Because that's how God made 'em. " Wonder if some people are believers because they're just lazy?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I would actually say that it is the other way around. They are taught not to question religious authority. That leads to them being taught to be intellectually lazy. If someone's parents always answer questions with "'Cause I said so" or "'Cause God says so" then that child is learning how to not think for themselves. That naturally leads some (many?) believers to be credulous people. It is worst when you ask them how they know something and they say that the Bible says so. It is at that point that you know they are hopeless.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Just read the post and the blog you linked to. Interesting reads, and I think I understand where your interest comes from. And you are completely right, of course, becoming "my own person" was a very large part of it all.
Although the coin, like all coins, does have two sides: all that pretty spiritual stuff was very enlightening and I leaned a lot from it, but I am really happy that I came mentally armed: it really helped me to not get "sucked in" by anything, and to every time, eventually conclude that the new "frame of thought" people were trying to convince me to adopt consisted mostly of... well, nonsense. So it seems in the end the conditioning was successful after all
One of the mistakes that many people make is in creating separations that just aren't there. For instance, raising a child, training a dog, and running a good business with a happy work environment are all the same thing. We don't like the idea of comparing raising a child to training a dog because it feels like we're "dehumanizing" the child by thinking that way. One of the things I try to do in all of my writing on evolutionary psychology is to instill in the reader a more accurate sense of life being a spectrum, of which humans are a part. That is to say, dogs and humans both evolved the same way, and though we are quite different in intellect and physical appearance, we are very much alike in the way our genes work. Very simply, we are adaptable creatures whose environment plays a huge part on our personality. That means that our personality can be shaped. It is shaped the same way for dogs and humans, only with more tact in the case of humans.
Let's think about this from a more removed perspective:
Training a dog to sit:
* If the dog doesn't sit, it will not be physically harmed, so this is less than urgent training.
1. Say "sit" while pressing firmly on the base of the tail.
2. If dog sits, reward with treat and head scratch and happy face.
3. If dog does not sit, repeat step 1.
Teaching a child his numbers:
* If the child doesn't learn his numbers immediately, it will not be physically harmed so this is less than urgent training.
1. Say, "Say 'One, two, three."
2. If child says, "One, two, three," reward child with big smile, happy voice, and affectionate tousle of the hair.
3. If child does not say, "One, two, three," repeat step one.
Training a dog to ignore other dogs on leashes:
* The dog might be injured if he attacks another dog, or he might injure the other dog. This is relatively urgent training.
1. Walk the dog. When the dog encounters another dog and lunges, jerk the leash sharply and keep walking.
2. Repeat as necessary until dog ceases to lunge and returns to "heel."
Training a child to play sociably with other children:
* A child may be injured or injure another child if it does not play sociably. This is relatively urgent training.
1. Take child to playground. When the child hits, spits on, or otherwise accosts another child, pull child gruffly away and make him sit away from the other child for enough time to cause the child emotional discomfort.
2. Repeat as necessary until the child ceases to accost other children.
See? Same thing. Positive and negative reinforcement, applied in essentially the same way, based on the gravity of the situation. Of course, it's more complex for humans, but think for a minute about how we do more complex training of humans. For an example, here's how to train a prep cook at a restaurant:
1) Demonstrate proper prep. Demonstrate finished product as it should look and taste.
2) Observe trainee as he imitates procedure
3) Repeat 1 and 2 as necessary until trainee is proficient.
4) Promote to prep cook.
5) When prep cook consistently preps correctly for a year, give him a raise or promote him. (Alternatively, give him the best shifts for tip outs.)
6) If prep cook prepares food incorrectly, make him redo it off the clock.
7) Repeat 5 and 6 for duration of employment.
Positive and negative reinforcement designed to make the employee want to do good work. It's more complicated than training a dog because it involves the cook thinking into the future, whereas dogs are mostly just reacting to immediate commands, but you can see that it's the same thing.
I say all of that to get around to a broad point about the way you were raised. I have a grown friend who has been an atheist since birth. He's never once even dabbled in religion, and has always been a good critical thinker. When we've talked about his childhood, he's related the kind of environment I've been describing. His parents simply taught him to think very well, and didn't go out of there way to tell him their own opinions on religion. Therefore, when he got to be a teenager, there was nothing to rebel against with regard to religion. How do you rebel against something that's been a non-issue for your parents?
In a way, you have to be a sneaky, manipulative person to be a good parent. If you want to make sure your kids won't go off the deep end in a particular area, you have to do everything in your power to make sure they don't want to. That primarily involves making sure they don't think it would be a rebellion against you if they did. It's kind of a catch-22. Whatever is the biggest deal to you needs to be the thing that they are least concerned about!
There's a lesson in here about sex, too. If you don't want your little girl screwing the football team when she's fifteen, don't preach at her about not having sex with the football team. Just treat sex like a normal part of life, and don't have a cow if she plays doctor with the neighbor's boy when she's ten. Talk openly about sex, and act as if you assume she'll be smart enough to take care of herself and not do anything stupid. Leave it at that.
Of course, there are never any guarantees, but an individual's life, like the evolution that created it, is a matter of percentages and averages. If you want the best chance to be a successful parent, use human nature to your advantage.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
What to produce an atheist, teach a kid religion, every single one of them. Never forget my comparative religion lessons at school, do a few of those lessons and saw how 90% religious people think the 90% of everyone else will burn in hell because they don't follow their particular death cult.
Teach them every branch of christianity, jewish islam, hinduism , all the tribal african religions, druids. Explain how everyone of them is certain they are right and every thing else is bullshit
Then try reality like humanism, science and not forgetting the Flying Spaghetti Monster
I spotted a book over at infidels.org regarding this topic called "Parenting Beyond Belief" if you were looking for any literature on it.
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=972
I haven't read it myself, so I can't vouch for it, but the excerpt they used to have on their site was very readable.
You can read the first several pages of the book on the amazon page for it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0814474268/thesecularweb/
Thank you. That looks interesting and I will definitely check it out further.
Nicolaj, thank you for helping me keep things in perspective! I've been reading comments from folks living in Europe, but it never even crossed my mind that there are so many parents raising kids outside of religion. *doh!*
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
My son just turned 16 in Feb. My wife and I never really attended church services with our son. My wife was a preacher's kid so it was kind of odd that she never really thought about taking him off to church, but then again I wouldn't go anyways so maybe that's why she never brought the subject up. She never claimed to be an atheist, but church was a whole lot less important to her than sleeping in on sunday morning I guess.
Anyways back to my son, he recently claimed that he is an atheist as well. I just never pressured him to accept by beliefs about religion. We have had discussions about religion and told him that I was available to answer any questions he may have, but I found that just not taking them to indoctrination (church) seems to do the trick. I also try to get him to use critical thinking any ANY claim not just those dealing with the supernatural.
If he were to become a believer tomorrow it wouldn't affect me in any way. I haven't shielded him from religion I just never found any reason to indoctrinate him into something I don't buy into.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
My father was never a believer and still is not to this day, my mom believes in god but not in religion and not so much in the god of the bible either. In our small town (3000 people) we attended church on the holidays only (my father was a business owner so it was always good business, especially when the majority are British decent and we are of argentinian/spanish decent to attend church on holidays). My father was good enough to teach me that all religions believe in a god and none of them can claim to be the true religion of god since none of them have ever proven their god to exist. I was taught about all the major religions of the world and how each make the same similar claims of salvation or some other divine claim that they need your membership for. As for my daughter I plan to do the similar thing as well, critical thinking, look at all the evidence and of course teach her about all the major religions, their claims and of course the evidence they have for the claims (which is really none at all) and allow her to make up her mind.
I've got two brothers, older (22) and younger (17). Early, our upbringing was religional, but socially religional. Local people has their classmates, relatives and friends who are religional, so it's natural that when they have a children, they may send them to a Sunday school with children of their friends and neighbours, or on various camps and hikes organized by local church crew. The kids are fairly safe from molestation, because no priests are usually involved in these activities, but young people or ministers (is that the right word?) who are usually married.
Our parents were also from religious environment, but their own hobby led them away from a religion and it's dogma, which they wouldn't support by any means. I remember they tempered my fear from Hell when I had it. We all (except of grandma) had only visited a church only if someone from family died (no big deal) and otherwise practically not, just a few times on Christmas mass.
I and brothers had an atheistic upbringing. Both my brothers are totally non-interested atheists, I haven't seen or heard them to be interested in any religional, philosophic or spiritual topic. Of course the older one is ashamed of the "silly parents' activities" when his girlfriend is around, and criticizes it when he can, but he criticizes just about everything, from a dinner he didn't cook, to a politics. Some people are happy when they have something to complain on.
So, what's different with me, that I'm not so similar kind of atheist to them, to put it mildly?
It's because I have a slightly enhanced perception, perhaps extra-sensoric, but expressing itself rather like as an alternative mode of touch. I've touched things that seemingly weren't there for others, and in these times I didn't know that it's normal, that anyone can learn it on some courses of alternative medicine. So, religional sources didn't say anything about my ESP, couldn't explain it, and yet they claimed an authority over me. 'To hell with such an authority,' I thought.
Now, most of you see the scientific institutions as a loving benefactor, doing things always correctly, and saving people from unjustified authoritative dogma. That's true, and I always loved books about nature, human body (it's not like you think), dinosaurs, and eventually computers. But neither science could explain my mild, common form of ESP in a constructive way, and yet this authority expected me to think the same way about everything, though it obviously didn't fit on what I perceived, it didn't fit on the reality. And thus I learned to not always rely on authority to know everything, that big, grownup and smart people can sometimes be mistaken, and that even young, inexperienced people can be sometimes ahead of others, in some aspects of life.
In other words, authority, popular people and popular ideas aren't always true. There is a lot of what they doesn't know, but they have to make it look like they know "everything", in order to survive. The institutions, by people who are dependent on them, may have some kind of self-preservation instinct, which makes this process of admitting a mistake (mea culpa) a threat for it's well-being.
If I'd have a children, I'd also teach them these basics of psychology, why others sometimes does things they don't understand why. Understanding of other people is important, because to understand means to forgive. I also wouldn't tell them, that their invisible friends doesn't exist, I'd mainly make sure, that these friends are an appropriate company for my child, and explain to the child, that for some people the invisibility is a problem. But that's of course their problem.
What a terrible thing must it do with a self-esteem of a child, when parents says that what he/she sees and touches doesn't exist? Another form of depenance on authority. As Hamby wrote, electric impulses travels to a brain and causes an inevitable response there. I find it absurd, that parents wants to oppose this process by authority. Children should learn to trust themselves and their own senses, nobody will see and hear for them, not for their good.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Flying Spaghetti Monster help them. Please, try to find some conspiracy to believe in that makes it a bad idea for you to have kids. Here's one to try out for size:
You see, the Illuminati are part of a conspiracy to create a new world order. NAFTA and the European Union are just stepping stones to something much bigger. Notice how the food industry is pushing nothing but fast food, sugar, salt, and cholesterol? It's part of a breeding program. They're using economics to separate the population into two separate species. It's going to take a while yet, but we're already starting to see the results of it. Eventually, genetic manipulation of the species is going to lead to a slave species and a master species, but before that happens, there's going to need to be a biological catastrophe that reduces the population to a manageable number for good genetic manipulation. When it happens, the heads of the various Illuminati cells will be protected in underground biolabs that have been set up already. They have been selectively breeding females for over five hundred years, and right before the biological war, they will kidnap all the females with the right genes to continue the master species. They'll live underground for a hundred years while the surface dwellers are being transformed through a series of biological events and manipulated food availability.
If you aren't one of the Illuminati, then you and your descendants are destined for slavery. Don't have kids, Luminon! Don't subject them to that future!!!
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Go to the library and get him some books on Greek mythology, Norse mythology, or Babylonian, or Egyptian, or Chinese, or whatever.
When I read about Jason and the Argonauts as a 9-10 year old kid, I was pretty much immunized against believing in Noah and his flood.
Oh, get him interested in science too. Carl Sagan's Cosmos is a great series for both adults and kids.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
stumbled upon this and thought even if no one here was interested in submitting a story, this might be an interesting competition to watch.
From The Atheist’s Way blog and Dale McGowan, editor of Parenting Beyond Belief:
Details below the fold.