I propose a toast
Offline *Taps his glass*
The fact that fringe science propagates at all in the 21st century is embarrassing. The fact that it is so widespread is shameful. It is important to clarify what precisely this means. It does not refer to issues of contention where a position is held by a "scientific minority". Genuine scientific controversies sort themselves out over time. Fringe science persists like weeds. It refers to those things which have no support in the disciplines under which they would be studied or tested, but which find public support and masquerade as science. The fact that in some cases fringe science can even enjoy more popularity in this sphere than mainstream scientific views is problematic. But here is one opportunity to deal a crushing blow. In one day hence, at the time of writing, the Large Hadron Collider will be operational for the first time (notice that I have avoided the word "switched on". Particle accelerators are not "switched on" ), dealing a humiliating blow to one particular form of fringe science nonsense (LHC doomsday scenarios).
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Amazing news! I'm so exited I can barely wait!
I also have a question: I read that the first attempt to circulate a beam in the LHC will be made on 10 September, that is, tomorow. So, is it going to be gradualy turned on?
The LHC is already on, depending on how you define "on". The magentic accelerators have to be cooled to near absolute zero. This is the longest phase of the "switch on". As you said, it will be operational by tommorow
EDIT: In the OP I put 3 days. I was incorrect. This has been fixed. It will start tommorow. Even better!
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
*opens a bottle of Chablis*
I'll gladly drink to science.
*pours two glasses full*
I hate to drink alone but after two glasses I won't care anyways. And if the doomsayers are right I wont even notice.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Same here. There is no possible way they are right, and even if they were they could hardly gloat about it afterward. We sure can tomorrow when the world is still here, though.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Having heard actual panic in a few people's voices, I can't wait for the world to still be here on Thursday as well.
Though I am much more excited that the experimets will start soon. Let's toast to knowing even more about the nature of matter.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
BUBBLES! I'm going out to get a bottle for the occassion after work. My glass will be taped and revolutionary discoveries will be made.
For those interested an exciting future awaits us following the first run of the LHC, the ITER nuclear fusion power generator will become operational in late 2016. That will be a day to celebrate as well.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
I have a large hardon for the large hadron collider.
If this supercollider shits the bed, you guys don't get to mention Hitler ever again.
Large Hadron Rap !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
lol!
Is that because we won't be physically able to, given that we'll all be crunched into a black hole? And for that matter, it's the theists who bring up Hitler all the time, so I suppose I don't understand your point.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
Worlds coming to an end eh?
Sweet, I'm just going to keep my movie rentals then... late fees my ass!
*two bottles polluted*
I just tapped into a second box of chablis, "hic", sumb one shoub be here to help me drink it; Untilzh you arrives I 'll drink in your memory. Here's to the black holes!!!!!!!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
By the way, I think it's funny that they won't actually be banging the little bits together until October 21st, yet so many are dead-focused (pun intended) on the start-up tomorrow.
As I understand it, they'll be doing system checks, calibration, and all the complex stuff necessary to get a collider up and running 'till the 21st.
So, I guess I'll hold off on the "I told ya so" 'till Halloween
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Dude, we gotta have beers soon. I need to reconnect with my inner cranky, and you're just the man to help me do it. For the record, your ability to compose a cantankerous, yet totally valid response to everything jmm posts is a wonder to me. Now that I'm thinking of it, I think Kevin Brown was the last atheist around these parts to bring up Hitler, and he was doing so in the context of rebutting theists. I'm trying to think of the last time I heard an atheist use Hitler in any argument that wasn't rebutting a theist... I can't think of one.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Everything should be ok as long as the Flux Capacitor has no problems.
*Taps into yet another box of Chablis*
Nows I's got to wait till the rest of the worlds gonna knows the world ended on Set 7, Lord god Tom Brady is out fort a season, who cares about "hic" anything else. You peoples 'just don't know whats important in life. *sniffs*
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Well according to Brian Keene in his book 'Rising' the LHC will uncrack the very gates of hell, allowing gods falsely imprisoned innocents (well they consider themselves that way we tend to call them deomons) to flood this world killing everything living by animating their corpses as zombies. Not your Romero Zombes either these are quite into serious religious debate while they rip your heart out the ones that can speak they have rabbit, bird and deer zombies too!
Trust me, I had a whole lot worse planned, but I try and save my most withering criticism for other atheists. Selection improves the herd, don't you know?
Anyway, I'll be very happy to get cadaverously drunk Wednesday evening or later. I've been doing 12+ hour days prepping for a lab meeting and I need some whisky with an I&G chaser.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
Filling some holes are we?
I wonder how many Siemens their gonna get outta the super conductors.
Umm, I recon finishing my epitath won't be necessary. Oh the peaceful bliss of it, to be dead again.
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Don't worry about the LHC folks:
He'll protect us.
There is a posibility that LHC will create headcrabs they say...
For everyone needing to keep tabs on whether the LHC has destroyed the world, here's a simple web tool for you:
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Is that really necessary? Even assuming you weren't on Earth and could somehow try going to the site, wouldn't the entire internet be down?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
One hour left before the first beam. at last! only a couple of years overdue but it's all good. Cheers all!
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<!-- if the lhc actually destroys the earth & this page isn't yet updated please email {email@obfuscated} to receive a full refund -->"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
How much do actually scientists laugh at people that believe this? Or are they just saddened by so many people being so ignorant?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Thanks for the flashback, Pineapple
By the way - I'm by no means knowledgable in Physics, but wouldn't the creation of a black hole capable of destroying the Earth require incredible ammounts of energy (like more than produced totally on Earth) and the collapse of more matter than exists on Earth?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
It won't let me edit, someone must be replying to me..... so anyhow..
Edit: Oops, wrong... it's 10 more hours by the looks of things, DAMN! sometimes the far eastern time zone sucks, I wish you'd all hurry up and get to this morning already!
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The latter. The thing I found the most funny is the way the phrase "14 trillion electron volts" has cropped up in the discussion in terms of the energy of the circulation beams, and people are absolutely horrified because they think that this number is tremendous.
One electron volt is the amount of energy needed to move an electron through a pD of one volt. Since one volt entails moving an electron between two points such that the difference in work done per unit charge between the two points is one joule/coulomb, and since e=1.6x10-19C, it follows that 1ev=1.6x10-19J, meaning that 14 TeV (that means "tera electron volts" not trillion) is 2.24x10-6J. For comparison with the unit, one joule is the amount of work done raising an apple 1m into the air.
Another thing people seem to think is that 14 TeV is the energy required to run the LHC. This is nonsense, obviously. 14TeV would be unable to power a flashlight let alone a superconductor. eV are used in quantum mechanics, particle physics, Relativistic kinematics and nuclear physics because at that scale it is unwieldy to use joules. THe numbers would be too small. The 14TeV refers to the energy that the LHC will provide to the particles it collides. For an elementary particle, this will speed it up to a considerable velocity, in fact as near to c as we've ever gotten anything.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
The energies in the LHC might be enough to reach the required scale or not. We're about to find out. The prospect of producing mini black holes is somewhat speculative because the LHC will probably only scrape the bottom end of the scale if it does at all and for black holes to form under those conditions requires a fair few very specific degrees of freedom to be in place, none of which are at all certain to exist.
So yeah, to certainly produce a black hole will require more energy, but if a collision pumps out a little black hole there's still little to worry about cause they'll be super hot so they won't have a chance to grow.
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Matt , actually no. Tiny tiny black holes are being created. Something I recently read, and posted.(???) Hey DG, and others here can problably explain. [ ahh, Eloise came to the rescue! ]
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I know little ones are, but I'm talking about one that would be large enough and long lasting enough to actually destroy the Earth. Wouldn't it need to have mass greater than the Earth to do that?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I noticed in the source for that site it has conditions where it will print "Yup. " How exactly would it's server still be running were the Earth destroyed? I'm assuming even if it were on a satellite anything capable of destroying the entire planet would also take care of all the satellites.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Big as in relative size to earth, no, mass, yes. Good question tho. I could not even guess. The size of a grian of sand perhaps?
I would sure like to know .... maybe ask google,"what size would a ....... "
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*Chinks Glass, Throws drink over shoulder*
Curse my Drinking Problem!
Well, okay...
...But I still say it's a good idea for everyone to keep a strangelet-zombie escape plan handy.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
"Curse my Drinking Problem!" Nay, double up, be like me, yipeee (a subtle warning)
I'll raise a glass to that! The BBC has a page dedicated to the LHC now that it's on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7604293.stm
M
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
I must admit I have no idea how the black holes would be created either, it's not like they are sending entire stars through the LHC.
Is it just a possible effect of mass increasing as the particles approach the speed of light? If so, how can a man made structure possibly contain something that massive?
If only I'd known I'd be interested in such things when I was chosing what degree to do!
Update So far, for anyone interested: the first (clockwise) beam successfully circled 3 times, ATLAS has produced images, and the second beam was just recently sent to test the a-clockwise run, it got slightly stuck at point 6 but it was quickly fixed and back on track.
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We tend to associate black holes with stars in laymans terms. But this association must be relinquished. Large black holes are of course created by dying stars, but black holes need not be created by stars. If you like thinking in Newtonian terms, a black hole is a point in space where the field strength is infinity, and the potential gradient is also infinity. However, I don't recommend you think in Newtonian terms, because Newton was wrong. Think in Relativistic terms. I have a wonderful metallic object on my desk which looks like a sliced Parabaloid. More precisely, it looks like a warped 2D space time manifold:
Whenever I have a physics problem I have trouble visualizing, I take out this object. After all, this object by itself essentially explains how the universe works. Black holes are simply points in space-time where the rate of curvature is infinite. The determination of the rate of curvature is not mass, but rather mass per unit volume. The reason that very small black holes could be created is because the collision of particles near light speed will create very high densities.
Think of when dying stars with iron cores undergo supernovae. The gravitational field strength (a Newtonian term which strictly does not make sense insofar as gravity is not really a "force", but is mathematically useful for communication) due to the density is sufficient to force the electrons of the core atoms into the nucleus. This makes the density so massive and releases so much energy that it easily outshines a galactic cluster. When the raw materials are blasted off, the neutron star can contract further into a black hole, although we don't understand precisely how. The important point to take away here is that density is the determining factor of a black hole.
These black holes (hypotethical ones due to collisions in LHC) will be tiny and decay immediately, so there is no danger, and it is unlikely that the LHC will even force elementary particles colliding into a density necessary to create a black hole, but even if they did they would disappate quickly. Black holes are not "things", they are points in space. Also, black holes don't "gobble" things up, despite the fears. Any object outside the Schwarzchild radius will be fine. The SR of the black holes created by elementary particle collisions will be unimaginably small.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
The best way to understand is to realise that a singularity is basically a solution to Einstein's field equations, it is essentially the result of certain ratios of quantitative properties that everything in space time has being plugged in to produce an anomalous result.
To simplify the case here, notwithstanding extra dimensions which would be evidenced by the production of a mini black hole, it's essentially a matter of how close the colliding protons get to each other, if they are pushed hard enough to squeeze together into a certain radius a teensy black hole results.
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The matter is compressed by the initial impact to the point that gravity is enough to hold it together, making a very, very dense but very, very small "black hole".
Now, assuming that Hawking radiation theory is wrong and all the other forces involved don't pull the "black hole" back apart, this little critter (with a mass a bit less than a single lead atom and a volume less than that of a proton) would fall toward the center of the earth. Once it cooled down enough, it could pick up and hold other particles it came into contact with as it fell.
It would yo-yo through earth's gravity well, slowly picking up mass as it goes. Eventually it gathers enough mass to start effecting the earth as it goes, and when all is done, earth is a super-dense ball of matter roughly the volume of a golf ball. It still holds the moon in place, and all our artificial satellites are still in orbit because the mass never changed. That's why that site will still be up to let everyone know the LHC destroyed the Earth! How cool is that?
Now, thing is, the environment inside the LHC is rather extreme for these wee particles involved. If Hawking radiation doesn't dissipate the little fellow within a few milliseconds of its creation, its thermal energy will, or any of a number of other forces will pull it apart. And that assumes one is created at all, and I gather that while possible it is mind-bogglingly improbable.
IANAP*, YMMV
*I Am Not A Physicist
Edit: Oh crap - I was scooped by two folks who actually know what they're talking about. o.0
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Now, I'll toast to 'fringe' science because without SOME of the craziest ideas we never would have had a first beam, let alone a second synchronization in one day.
They're going to go one more unanticipated step further today by trying to capture and POSSIBLY accelerate beam 2
ASSUMING THE AMERICAN MADE PIECES QUIT FUCKING UP LIKE THEY HAVE TWICE TODAY JUST AS THEY HAVE FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.
On a side note: I hope CERN uses better translators for the report than they did for the webcast. lol.
I'm pretty sure that the chick mistranslated his successful completion speech after Beam 2 came within parameters.
What she thought: "... now it is up to the physicists to do the work."
What I'm sure he said: "... then it is now for the physics to show us the work to do."
Small minor difference, n'est ce pas?
Anyway, I'm happy. I gotta get up and stretch. Probably should sleep. I was only going to watch for a little while.
Oops! While typing this, our French and Swiss friends sided with me in denigrating the US participation in the LHC. They brought up the SSC.
Now they're back-peddling saying "We appreciate the US contributions to the LHC."
Damn.
BTW, I'm rooting for Hawking to win the bet about the H-boson. Lol.
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Well, the Earth seems to still be here....
Technically, that's a no-brainer, Matt, nothing has been collided just yet.
The good news is that it works! proton beams have successfully navigated both directions in total and so far so good for the detector points. Looks like there will be another run tonight of the a-clockwise direction (in order to get it round clear after a few corrections) and then we're all set to smash stuff and look at the world with new eyes.
Now, back to my celebratory Rum and pet episodes of Star Trek.
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