"They don't like blacks"
Offline I posted this on another forum today but I think this man makes some very good points. I wanted to post it here too. Roger Schank is a former Professor of Stanford, Yale, and Northwestern Universities. Here's his opinion of why he thinks many Americans vote Republican:
When I travel, I live the life of an intellectual. In Florida, I hang out with jocks and retirees. I try not to talk politics with them. When, it happens that I have no choice but to hear what they think about politics I take note of it. Here is what I have heard:
Obama is a Muslim. His pastor hates America. In fact nearly everyone outside of America hates America. If you travel outside of America, go on a cruise, so you won't have to eat whatever it is one eats in those places. You don't want to talk to the people either, but that’s not a problem because none of them speak English. And, anyway they all hate us for our freedoms. Obama will put Al Sharpton in the cabinet. Dick Cheney was the greatest Vice President in history. The Jews are running the country anyway.
I am not making this up. This is not a caricature. I wish I carried a tape recorder.
Why do these people vote Republican?
It is common to make the assumption that people are thinking when they vote and they are making reasoned choices. I harbor no such illusion. No argument I have ever gotten into with these people, (despite avoiding talking to them, I sometimes can't resist saying something true) has ever convinced anyone of anything. They are not reasoning, nor do they want to try. They simply believe what they believe. What do they believe?
1. They don't like blacks. Forget the rest. It isn't that they are racists. They will be polite if a black person ever appears. (This doesn't happen much, although I am sure they must live here too.) They just don't like them. They have no reason. If you ask them today, as a result of recent remarks by Michelle Obama and their pastor, they will say that blacks hate America. This is not the reason, but they sound more reasoned in their own minds if they say it that way.
2. They don't like wussies. The Democrats are always nominating wussies,—men who are not men. Obama looks like his wife runs the show at home. Kerry? Gore? Dukakis. Wussies. Not real men. Bad people are trying to kill us. We need to kill them first. Those guys wouldn't pull the trigger. (I am not making this up. I wish I were.)
3. They worry about money. Who wants to take their money away? Liberals of course. They want to give it to the blacks.
Where I live is not redneck country. There is a lot of church going but no talk about abortion or of being born again. There is a just a distaste and distrust for people not like us (which I am sure includes me.)
It is all very nice to come up with complex analyses of what is going on. As is often the case, the real answer is quite simple. Most people can't think very well. They were taught not to think by religion and by a school system that teaches that knowledge of state capitals and quadratic equations is what education is all about and that well reasoned argument and original ideas will not help on a multiple choice test.
We don't try to get the average child to think in this society so why, as adults would we expect that they actually would be thinking? They think about how the Yankees are doing, and who will win some reality show contest, and what restaurant to eat it, but they are not equipped to think about politics and, in my mind, they are not equipped to vote. The fact that we let them vote while failing to encourage them to think for themselves is a real problem for our society.
The scientific question here is how belief systems are acquired and changed. I worked on this problem with both Ken Colby and Bob Abelson for many years. Colby was a psychiatrist who modeled paranoid behavior on computers. The basis of his work was research on how neurotic thinking depends upon the attempt to make inconsistent beliefs work together when the core beliefs cannot change.
Abelson worked on modeling political belief systems. He built a very convincing model of Barry Goldwater that showed that once you adopted some simple beliefs about the cold war, every other position Goldwater took could be derived (and asserted by a computer) from those core beliefs. The idea of a set of unchanging core beliefs is not true of only politicians or psychiatric patients of course. Everyday average Joes behave the same way. Adult belief systems rest on childhood beliefs instilled by parents mostly and by assorted other authorities.
Republicans do not try to change voter's beliefs. They go with them. Democrats appeal to reason. Big mistake.
Rick
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
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Since when do Democrats appeal to reason let alone use it?
Disadvantage of democracy (all democracies) it gives people who barely have a brain capacity greater an amoeba a vote.
Of course every other form of government is worse
Democrats don't appeal to reason. They will play people's fears and spout irrational gibberish as well as any Republican can. This was a great article right up to the end. At that second to last sentence the author revealed a blinding bias. For some reason he wants to pretend that the Democrats are the rational party. Surely we all get it that both parties are irrational in their own ways. Republican irrationality does seem to result in more wars though.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
I seem to remember reading an article in Time magazine - I could be wrong I was in the Czech Republic and very hungover - stating that Barrack is the new Othello.
For those that don't know the play Othello is beloved by the rich and powerful nobles of venice, none more so than Brabantio who loves the Moor's stories of war and heroism. However once it transpires that the Moor wishes to marry his daugher, Brabantio becomes "uncomfortable" to say the least. The author of the article said the same was true of America - while 'everyone' loves the idea of a black man running for the office of President, a smaller number will actually vote for him. Phrases have allegedly cropped up as a form of acceptable racism: "Of course I'd vote for Obama, but there's not much substance to his campaing..." etc.
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
Of course there are exceptions but, to my sense of what is reasonable and rational, the Democrats do appeal to an overwhelming degree in comparison to Republicans on any subject just off the top of my head...
Schools/Education/Science teaching
Gay Rights
Stem Cell research
Pre-emptive war
Diplomacy
Roe v Wade
Separation of Church/State
Voter registration
Environmental issues
Energy issues
Economics
Civil Rights
Taxes
Presidential power
P.O.W. issues
Health insurance
I'll probably think of more later...but, basically, I can't think of a single issue at the moment where, in general, the Democrats do not take a more reasonable position.
The American Democratic party is merely a toned down version of the Republican party. To an outside observer, the differences between the two are few and far between. They should be called the Right Wing and the Far Right Wing parties, respectively.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well, I don't see it that way at all but you, as an outside observer or any other type, are entitled to your view, of course.
If Democrats were to be "Left Wing", what would they be doing, in your view?
The Democratic party is a coalition party so you'll get liberals like me and Kucinich with conservatives like Bill Clinton and the former Democrat Lieberman. But to think a progressive Democratic city like San Francisco is similiar to a Republican town like backwater Alabama is quite a stretch.
*Points to Canadian Liberals as an example of a real left wing party*
Of course, we have your problem in reverse to a certain extent. Our Conservative party is possibly more Liberal than your Democratic party.
I should note, however, that my comments are not based specifically on events of today(or near to today), but in my life experience. Whether Republican or Democrat, the US government is a real nasty piece of work. Maybe Obama can save it. But then I remember what happened with Clinton, and my hope fades. No matter how good he is, I can see an impeachment proceeding because he said he ate fruit instead of vegetables or some such stupidity. The better he is, the more likely it is. Apparently only Republicans can lie to the entire country and make illegal wars without getting in trouble for it.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I wasn't comparing towns, cities, or regions. Merely political parties. As the U.S. is predominantly right wing, left wing parties in right wing states must be at least partially right wing themselves. It snowballs.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Upon reading the opening thread, I am not surprised one bit as to why people choose Republican. Their xenophobic and hateful rhetoric is not solely the result of religion and poor education. In fact, I have seen similar sentiments described in the opening thread among those who are extremely educated ie. physicians, lawyers, engineers, etc.. The Left has traditionally marginalized the white male middle class. For years, the message has been that the United States is a white supremacist sexist patriarchy. The deck is stacked heavily against you even if you are a decent white guy. It is no wonder then that the Right will form their own identity politics (ie. evangelicals, hockey moms, etc..).
What those on the left fail to realize is that we tend to be tribalistic and often dogmatically affiliate with certain groups. This behavior is hardwired in us as evidenced by our primate cousins. When a segment of the population becomes marginalized that group tends to become hateful and will pursue any means to reclaim and maintain power. And in the process, reason and rationalism suffer eg. claims that Obama is muslim. People who are marginalized will vote based on their instinctive frustrations and anger.
I emigrated from Canada to the US in 1994 and since then a similar "Republican" mindset has cropped up among white Canadians who dislike the dogmatic pandering to multiculturalism and resultant increasing visibility of islamic fundamentalism in regional politics (eg. Shariah law in Ontario). My brother lives in a middle class community in Ottawa and his white Christian neighbors have taken their children out of public school (because of too many muslims) and are home schooling them. It's only a matter of time that the culture wars in Canada become as severe as they are in the US.
What is paradoxical to me is the following. I am Indian and I grew up in "liberal" Ottawa during the 70s and 80s and I was constantly bombarded by racism ie. epithets like "goddam fucking Pakis go home!!!". Yet here in Iowa where I have resided since 1994, I am surrounded by staunch republicans who have never discriminated against me. Yet they have very negative views of African Americans. Go figure!!!! In fact, they keep asking me to vote Republican.
I am voting for Obama though.
Ontario is a strange province. I've lived in Alberta, B.C., and Ontario. I've visited every other province with the exception of Newfoundland. Out of all of these places I have been, Ontario is the most racist, most white(excepting populations above 100,000 only), and most stressed(in combination at least). Also the most similar to the American way of doing things. When I was growing up in Alberta, I never understood the disgust the west has for the east. Then I moved to the east, and it became clear.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Democrats probably aren't that militant, corrupted and fanatic, I hope.
And, btw, where would you want to get a Left wing in America? Too many Cold war veterans still lives and votes. Whatever "social" is marked as "communistic". And American plutocracy supports that opinion.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
personally, i think the 2-party system is an illusion at best, but i was remarking to my friend a couple years ago that the democratic party these days takes such a beating among half the country because of its overt intellectual airs. gone are the days of FDR, stephen douglas, and andrew jackson, when democrats also relied heavily on stump-speeching populists. i told him the democrats would have absolutely no problem if they got somebody with a good twang to make remarks like, "i'm not surprised mr. bush doesn't see the need to end the war. after all, you can't look in a donkey's eye without seein' a horse's ass." does it make sense? fuck no! and THAT's the kinda shit that would clinch it for the democrats. they just need an image overhaul: a good rough and tumble teddy roosevelt (yes, i know he was a republican). there's plenty of 'em out there, and a lot more of 'em in the backwoods than you'd think. kentucky is mostly democrat, especially up in the eastern mountains. yes, they're churchgoers, but a lot of them are small farmers and union men too, with generations of feud-like hatred against conservatives. the problem is, with republicans appealing more and more to their prejudices and superstitions, and the democrats speaking in terms these poor folk can't understand, the latter are quickly losing this valuable constituency.
let me coach obama. i can feed him so many left-wing, good ol' boy, woody guthrie witticisms, he'll be in the white house in no time flat, carried on the shoulders of farmers, steel mill workers, construction workers, coal miners, truckers, and lumberjacks. we'll conquer the world three times over, wipe our noses, go to bed, and die.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Just seems to be as a Brit that Americans want someone that looks talks and acts like an average American. Now assumming an average American has an IQ of 100 (same as any other western country) they want someone who isnt capable of reading a graph, can't understand a train/bus timetable and no real understanding of international politics and thinks general relativity is a type of car.
This isnt a criticism of America but as a Brit the Prime minister I want must be
a) smarter than me
b) better looking at me
c) someone with more charisma
d) someone better than lying/bending the truth than me (thats part of politics and basically any sort of economic activity) which is vital with dealing with fellow politicans nationally and internationally, its how you get things done
What I most certainly don't want is someone who will be my mate and I can go down the pub with for a chat with .
And if this superman cant do his job well enough for me then guess what in 4/5 years I sack him!
AMEN! LOLZ
Ugh. I'm well aware of the American self delusion regarding communism. But Canada has had a positive influence on the US over the years and decades. There are plenty of left wing oriented Americans who are either former Canadians(or Europeans), or military deserters who spent time here during Vietnam.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.