How to converse with ignorant theist.
My question is this:
I spend a good deal of mental energy thinking of ways I can disprove the christian god to the christians. Now I am usually successful enough to force them to rest their case solely with "The spirit of the lord has revealed this..blah blah blah, I'm an ignorant fuck." Now, what i want to know, is, what strategies do you folks use when confronted with a blindly adherent christian who is too dense to comprehend even the definition of "logical fallacy", someone who is literally too stupid to be shown the pure logical appalacy of their faith. Meaning, verses from their own bible? Or perhaps contridictions from such? Maybe a very simple analogy of how exactly their faith is inconcievably flawed? Any thought?
Thanks ^_^
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I rarely seek to deconvert xians, so I'm not the most experienced, but in the case of the really dense ones, my favorite approach is to ask questions about some of the more rediculous fairy tale ish parts of the bible such as the flood, the redistribution of life after the flood, the tower of Babel, Jacob's grip strenght (he won't let go of god until he gets his blessing), the talking snake, the talking donkey, the plagues, the pee pee mutilation, and so on. Once you can get them to admit that the bible may not be the literal word of god, you at least have some room to challenge their beliefs, however be prepared for the possibility that there are battles that can't be won.
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
You asked specifically about christians but in fact the same challenge exists when talking to anyone who has bought into a pile of irrational claptrap. In my case I don't rise to this challenge unless the other person has taken it upon themselves to attempt to persuade me they are right, or they in some important manner insinuate this misconception in a way that might cause me complications.
There is no point in concentrating on the inherent contradictions which riddle the particulars of the religious system of their choice, nor the illogical and unreasonable fallacies on which a lot of that faith system is constructed. The religious mind has been trained by its owner (not always the owner of the brain thus trained) to revel in such contradictions as perverse "proofs" of the mystery of their faith, or simply block them out completely.
But the religious person should be forcibly reminded of certain responsibilities his or her extraordinarily illogical belief places on them and addressing at least some of these contradictions is one of them. The theist, for example, must acknowledge the fact that he or she is not in as comfortable a majority view as they might think. The abundance of gods, and the abundance of interpretations of individual gods which characterises deism as a delusion, prove that the susceptibility to religious suggestion is shared by a great majority of humanity. But it also proves that no one creation myth or superbeing characterisation has ever been universally acknowledged and it is more reasonable to deduce from this that the assumptions being made are therefore universally false than that any one set of assumptions is true.
The religious person must also justify how, when it comes to the general claim that his or superstition makes them a better person, better people who do not share their particular unfounded views abound, and demonstrably worse people, who DO share their views, are also to be found. People like me, who refuse to believe in any superstition but yet attempt in thought and action to uphold high humanitarian principles, also abound. The notion of "salvation" is normally thrown back as the christian theist's riposte to this but that must be discounted since it is only a notion shared by some superstitious groups, not all, and in any case it is grossly offensive and arrogant to insinuate to anyone else that they are in a position in which they require to be saved at all. Most importantly however it does not deflect from the major point - goodness, a common sense of moral values, and the ability to behave in a manner which is more likely to benefit fellow humans than impinge on them, exist in spite of religion rather than because of it.
Finally they must account for the fact that their committment to believing in something which the absence of evidence indicates is false, and not only that but that they can describe in minute detail aspects to the character and nature of this entity, necessarily raises grave doubts about their ability to reason factually in all other areas. It even raises doubts about their ability to be truly humanitarian in their outlook, especially when perceived instructions from this invisible source compel them to adopt attitudes and modes of thinking which impact heavily on others. In some cases, and the evidence for it is legion, it encourages inhumane thinking and deeds. Religion is not just a superstition, but has proven repeatedly to be a potentially destructive superstition in many different ways and on many different levels. As a subscriber to such a superstition it is their responsibility to inform others of their willingness and capacity to inflict harm, disrupt, or otherwise negatively impact on other people's lives. If they cannot or will not do this then they must understand that the suspicion that they are a subversive social element must reasonably be applied to them.
None of these things will "convert" a person even moderately brainwashed into believing in supernatural fantasies as fact to a more rational view, even though it may give the less delusional of them pause for thought. But in taking this conversational line you do achieve one worthwhile purpose. Within their group they will never have heard these assertions expressed, and rarely hear any assertion in any case which can actually be backed up with evidence. A significant effort is made by religious communities to shield them from such evidence, so it is your responsibility as an atheist to make a similar effort in making them hear it in any case. Education is religion's greatest threat and always has been. The security they find in wilful ignorance should no longer be the false haven it once was to them, and at least you will have made a small contribution to dismantling it.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Usually I just laugh at them condescendingly and walk away. If they're that far gone, the chances of you pulling them out of the mire are roughly equivalent to winning the lottery.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
THANK you for those enlightening words. The issue of what the christian delusion, and i admit, other false religions in the world, though i speak of only christianity because that is the only one ive had genuine exposure to, does as far as its impact on the individual christians validity as a thinking person has being weighing on my thoughts recently. After all, I am not without hope and love, these are human emotions, and as such everyone on earth is subjected to them, however i do not deem these said emotions as any sort of desire for a higher being. I especially like the argument that as humans, we like to imagine that we are not the most powerfull entities that are around. I myself pride myself in being part of the most powerful, intelligent, and advanced race in the universe, at least until I am disproven, either by an alien life form, or the literal,undeniable physical appearance of this God fellow. I believe that if a christian is able to willfully believe in that load of shit, then they are to be judged as not lacking the mental facutlies to engage in any other form of intelligent thought, and as such, any of their arguements are null in void. I will readlily admit that I do not have the tremendous power of words that so many of the bright minds on the site possess. To my sorrow i might add. But I do share the core love of logic, intellegence, and respect for science that i believe many of you have. I believe christianity represents a threat to those core values that I hold above all others second only to freedom of thought, which i believe most of us can agree, is not encouraged by "the church"
LOL VASTET. I would laugh at them as well, except, everytime i go downtown i see one of 7 street evangelists, and i think to myself...my god, its like a fucking military conscription campaign. And i cant help but want to oppose them. Perhaps i have to lofty a goal...I hope that the day will come during my lifetime when if someone says their christian society will view them in the same manner as if i were to national express a firm belief in the church of a purple spaghetti monster from outer space that filled me with his spirit after touching me with his noodley appendage....Someday....someday..lol. ^_^
I see it more like trying to convence a drug addict or alcholic that they need treatment for their addiction...They won't get help until they actually want help.
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
I live in Dayton, Ohio, and this is nothing compared to were i lived but a year ago. I used to live in Salt Lake City, Utah. The hub and mecha of the most blatantly ignorant cult of quasi christians iv ever had the displeasure of meeting.
Living in SLC would have to suck an ass that hasn't been wiped or washed in 20 years.
It more than sucks said ass....I sucks on it to clear an opening, begins crawling inside....stops for air, passes out for a few hours and lies in a festering cess pool that is SLC ass..then awakens only to resume its climb into said ass and sets up a small community of leprous children who attempt to etch out a miserable existance in the ass of SLC.
It all depends on the nature of the person you are dealing with. Sometimes It requires subtley...
I actually don't have a problem with any theists who's faith is honest, not used as a means to express bigotry or hatred, not born of a self righteous indignation or a burning desire to tell other people how to lead their lives...not fear based...and are full acknowledgement of the fact that what they believe is unproivable, and consists entirely of faith.
Of course, this vitually eliminates every theist on earth...so I just explain why their "faith" is actually a subsitute for the words "fear", or "hope"...and think of new and creative ways to tell them to go fuck themselves. When its impossible to reason...I always go for embarrassing laughs at their expense. It works more than you would think.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
OP - "How to converse with ignorant theists." ????
I play an atheistic buddha jesus and throw their stupid dogma religion of xaintiy in their idol worshiping faces ....
Atheism Books.
Really the only thing you can do is hope something u say has an impact and if not, just let them rant and laugh... good entertainment value...
Faith, like hope, is the denial of reality...
Knowledge is power
Power leads to corruption
Corrution leads to crime
Crime doesn't pay
So if you study you'll go broke.
cruchless.
Never try to disprove mate - won't work. Simply stare off into space and wistfully remember the God you once had. Then mention that since you've begun to put your mind to it recently, you now realise you have never once had a reason to believe he exists (plenty of slow, sad head shakes and frowns) and actually have had many good reasons to believe he does not - insert random family crisis here with hints of a tiny bit of aggression towards the god you've lost. Then mention how lucky you perceive them to be to have such certainty...hey we all love certainty. This is important: praise their certainty! But then lapse back into despair over the aforementioned randomly selected family crisis.
This should hook em. Then let your loud sobs of despair do the rest. Nothing here is dishonest, and I've 'used' it genuinely (lapsed Christian that I am) and through no desire to deconvert on a very intent friend of mine and they freely admits now to alternating between belief and agnosticism.
It also helps to recount to them previous brutal encounters you've had with evangelists due to the desire of every last one of them to actually BLAME (outraged tone of voice when mentioning this) you for your crisis. Fatalism vs. Christian repentance doctrine - how DARE they blame since they weren’t there and so can’t possibly judge. This'll twist em in knots - just watch!
All that's required is the time/inclination to befriend them. Their desire to express the love of Jesus to you should do the rest.
So.
Rule 1: no aggression.
Rule 2: sob story. No one can resist this.
You ask...Maybe a very simple analogy of how exactly their faith is inconceivably flawed?
Our fucked up lives are the analogy to the flaw in their faith (which is that a good god exists). And so are theirs.
Befriend one and see...the doubt creeps in faster than a galloping horse does because they also have crippling doubt. Hint: the greater the expressed 'certainty' the more brittle the protective shell.
If I hear, that I must "accept Jesus as my master, and confess my sins to him, otherwise I'm gonna burn in Hell", then I'm all like...WTF? I already live like that, I never rejected Jesus. I feel in my heart that I'm all OK with that Jesus guy, and there's no need to acknowledge it one more time for religional effect.
I had probably made peace with him in my past lives. There is no Hell you know, my mother is a regression therapist, and I saw on my own eyes, that there are past lives, no Hell, no permanent Heaven. So, when there's no Hell, and Jesus doesn't complain about our relationship, so what's your problem???
Yeah, they've got a problem with someone, who actually saw there is no Hell
(Of course, this is for the ignorant theists. For those otherwise quite intelligent, non fundie, I also use what I learned from RRS )
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I've learned that with a little practice, I can approximate genuine surprise really well. When a theist says something particularly nutty, I do my best "surprise" and follow that with an equally convincing body language expression of "Oh, shit! I didn't mean to embarrass them by looking surprised at their belief. I'm going to act as if I don't think they're crazy"
The truth is that openly ridiculing them is not always very effective, but acting as if you don't want to embarrass them is much more demeaning. Works wonders.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Religious people are convinced that it is virtuous to have faith without evidence which I call irrational faith. They think that its evil for them to question their own irrational beliefs. They think that its heroic to resist logical arguments against their irrational beliefs. They think that they are morally superior for having irrational beliefs and that those who attack their irrational beliefs are morally inferior and "the enemy" of whatever group that they are loyal to.
If you prove that their concept of God is impossible, then they will think that they are even more virtuous for believing in the impossible, or they will just change their concept of God to something else. Religious people often make fundamental changes in their religious beliefs when they read some book or get a new friend or change pastors. However, they never let go of their belief that having irrational faith is virtuous.
It is the irrationality of the faith of religious people that makes religion dangerous and evil. Religious people can believe whatever they are told to believe without asking for any evidence to justify those beliefs and even in view of overwhelming evidence against their beliefs.
It is their belief in the virtue of irrational faith upon which all their other irrational beliefs depend. It is the fulcrum. The evil of irrational faith is the only thing that is important to convince them. The lever is all the irrational beliefs in history that have resulted in horrible atrocities.
You are never going to have any impact on their irrational beliefs as long as they are convinced that irrational faith is virtuous.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
Yeah , religion is all spin, to the creed of fear of life and death, and so a wishful thinking invention of re- inventing all real evidence of reality, to then even persecute those of us who disagree with their hocus pocus.
Atheism Books.