The Biblical slaughter of the innocents and abortion
Offline In the Old Testament and the New, there is the story of the slaughter of the innocents, in which a tyrannical king (Pharaoh in the Old, Herod in the New) orders the murder of male babies in order to shore up his own corrupt power. It's a story that's meant to inspire revulsion for tyranny and that's just fine, but it brings up a question for the pro-life movement. The legal intellectuals on the pro-life side (this is especially true of Catholics, I've noticed) claim that their arguments are completely based upon the innocence of the unborn and not upon the doctrine of ensoulment at conception, which is what really appears to get the base moving. As I mentioned earlier, it was tyrannical kings who ordered the killing of all those Jewish babies and only two of them ended up not getting killed, those being Moses and Jesus, both of whom only survived because of divine providence.
Now I'm not calling God the bad guy in those stories. That won't get me anywhere. But why save two and abandon the rest? If He was willing to act in both cases to save two innocents, then why not save the others? Would it have been any harder for an omniscient being to strike down the messenger or the soldiers or the King than to act through subterfuge and let Moses and Jesus slip past detection? Of course, Moses was the one destined to give the Law to the Hebrews and Jesus was God Himself in human flesh--they were VIPs, so to speak. And that's the crux of the stories. All innocents are innocent, but some are more important than others and accordingly, more worth saving. So if human embryos are equally innocent, then why should a believer worry if evil humans like us choose to kill them? God will obviously step in to rescue the ones he really wants.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
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Don't forget that there's zero historical evidence that either event ever actually happened.
Well, that's not really my point. When people construct their morality out of Bible stories, it's a common debater's tactic to let them have the story just so you can give them all the rope they need to hang themselves. That's actually why I made this post. If people with experience in fundamentalism see where I've got something wrong here, I'd like them to tell me, because it feels like a pretty strong argument for a face to face conversation. It worked pretty well for me Friday night, but it does need to be sharpened.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
Well, using that logic you could also point out more evidence God wanted it to happen - Biblical morality includes the divine right of kings - so God wanted the asshat that did that to b the king knowing he'd do just that.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I like the "let the bible hang itself" approach too, but there are verses dealing with the slaughter of innocence that drive home the point a little more directly. For example:
Isaiah 13:14 - 16: Murder and rape Babylon. "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes"
Hosea 13:16 deals with abortion a little more directly. At least modern left wing liberals have found ways to do it in which the women survive.
1 Samuel 6:19: Of course a loving god is all for murdering women and children, but what did the camels and donkeys do?
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
Wasn't one of the plagues God set upon Egypt the death of all first-borns?
Uh. Because he wanted to underline his personal endorsement of eugenics?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
There's always that good old standby in 2 Kings, of course (quoted from the annotated skeptic's bible):
And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare* forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23-24
*ripped open
I've heard a number of justifications as to why it was okay for God to have bears attack a bunch of little kids, but they are all somewhat lacking. This verse has always gotten to me as a childcare professional.
Oh, but those kids weren't innocent, Bong. They made fun of Elisha for being bald. I can see how Jehovah can't let that go without answer.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell