So which is it??? (grammarian and the boatman)
Offline The grammarian and the boatman
A GRAMMARIAN once embarked in a boat. Turning to the boatman with a self-satisfied air he asked him:
‘Have you ever studied grammar?’
‘No,’ replied the boatman.
‘Then half your life has gone to waste,’ the grammarian said.
The boatman thereupon felt very depressed, but he answered him nothing for the moment. Presently the wind tossed the boat into a whirlpool. The boatman shouted to the grammarian:
‘Do you know how to swim?’
‘No’ the grammarian replied, ‘my well-spoken, handsome fellow’.
‘In that case, grammarian,’ the boatman remarked, ‘the whole of your life has gone to waste, for the boat is sinking in these whirlpools.’
You may be the greatest scholar in the world in your time, but consider, my friend, how the world passes away - in time!
Now I ask...which is it???
God vs. Satan...
Freewill vs. Destiny....
Skepticism vs. Faith...
Positive vs. Negative...
Theism vs. Non-theism....
Atheism vs. Christianity....
Evolution vs. Creationism....
Heart vs. Logic (In actuality, sound reasoning AND a healthy mind, body and spirit require both)....
My response. Non-dualism is always an option. One day, I just stopped rationalizing life in dualistic terms.....I finally came to realize that that was THE CHOICE I had to make for myself.....and it was funny, before that, I had assumed it was the true or false portion that really mattered. I was glad I was wrong.
"I find it mind boggling that before I woke up from my mind's delusions I was in a constant state of resistance."
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
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That's an interesting argument.
False dichotomy, non-sequitur, metaphor.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
How so?
This is just a disguished version of Pascal's Wager.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
For the record I agree... Black/white and right/wrong discotamies are not the way to go... Why do you think I dislike theism so much?
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
Monism, dualism - outdated ideas from philosophy, irrelevant to actually understanding the way consciousness and mind relate to the neuronal processes we observe in the brain. We now have a rapidly growing body of evidence of how intimately thoughts, feelings, emotions are inextricably intertwined with observed activity in various areas of the brain. There are also major insights gained from the effects of physical trauma or artifiicial stimulation of the brain affects consciousness and perception.
The belief that there is a 'soul' constituted of some ethereal 'stuff' which contains essential aspects of our 'person-hood' just does not fit comfortably with what study of this subject reveals.
There are also the studies which show how many other living creatures share aspects of our behaviour and seemingly at least some of our thought processes, albeit at a simpler level.
You have to do much more than just think about these things, you have to investigate just what evidence has been gained from all these studies and consider their implications.
Anyone speculating on the nature of mind who has not been following these areas of study is not in a position to say anything useful on the subject.
So the decision is between a large growing body of understanding about the complex ways in which consciousness arises from processes occurring in a complex organ, the brain, versus an ill-defined idea about some undetectable non-material entity which somehow still manages to interact with matter yet is exists in a separate realm, whatever that is, with nothing but the most indirect speculation and some mental experiences to hint at its possible reality.... not really a descision between concepts of remotely comparable intellectual status.
Yes, 'mind' is not identical with 'the brain'. But it seems to be what the brain 'does'. So 'dualism' is a primitive superstitious and pointless speculation.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
I'm saying the same thing.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
When one uses these "concepts of remotely comparable intellectual status" (like the grammarian in my OP) it doesn't amount to much at all. Basically, you can have a- it's you AGAINST the world (pure speculation and a bit paranoid and superstitious)..... my knowledge is superior to their knowledge (even though you just stated there is a "large growing body of [evidence]" that might even eclipse yours one day)... You are either an atheist or your "dumb" (false dichotomy)- mentality; But it's just AS primitive, trivial and POINTLESS as you stated. That was my point.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
No you aren't. You are commiting a fallacy of equivocation. You are referring to dualism as the general concept of a choice between two and only two possibilities. In the context in which Bob is talking, we are referring to the philosophical terms monism and dualism. THe former really begins with Baruch Spinoza, and refers to a philosophical concept where there is a single ontological basis for reality. The latter begins with Rene Descartes and is a philosophical position where there are two ontological bases for reality.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
EXACTLY.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Regardless. What's the opposite of 2? Anything that's not 2. Non-dualism fits in that category.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
I never said he was.
EDIT: I already told you to stop quoting yourself. Just edit your latest posts, like I have.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
EDIT: Regardless. What's the opposite of 2? Anything that's not 2. Non-dualism fits in that category. Therefore, monism fits in THIS category.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Funny thing is, for someone who don't know shit, I got a lot of common sense where it is obviously lacking. LOL
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
I'm confused by the dichotomies you present. Do you want to expand on them? Some of them are fictional, some of them aren't pragmatically real, some of them literally do exist and some of them aren't mutually exclusive. Did you have a point to make?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Post 12.
I don't believe all theists are dumb. They are all wrong. Tribalistic dichotomies are rather primitive, you're right, but they do exist. I'm not convinced that all such dichotomies are trivial and pointless (certainly monism and dualism are). You must know, of course, that atheists are not those people that began the 'us against them' mentality... and that being the case, the dichotomy between atheists and theists exists regardless of the admittance by atheists that it does. Atheists have recently picked up their end of the... fight. I'd be more than willing to let theists alone with their beliefs, but it is abundantly clear throughout history and into the present that the vast majority of theists and their institutions have no capability nor will to let anyone else alone with their beliefs. This has finally become problematic for religion, that people (and it's not just atheists, but secularists and even religious moderates too) don't want beliefs founded in mythology to have precedent in their national discourse let alone their daily lives and have the ability to make it known and to effect change without being, well, burned at the stake.
Again, and not to press the point, did you actually have a point to make?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Who are you responding to, Arj? Yourself?
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Well, Arj, you've 'met' me and BobSpence1 and deludedgod. Still, I don't know what the point of your post is and I certainly don't know what the point to the 'dichotomies' you presented were. I won't repeat myself, but to say that you gave rather poor examples.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Then you probably can't understand my point because you weren't in my first and second thread. If you were, you would know I wasn't using hypothetical examples in post 12. Peace.
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Deludedgod, has Arj made a point that I'm missing?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
A concept, such as 'Dualism", no matter how ill-defined and poorly thought through, and its negation, "Non-dualism", are NOT automatically of comparable intellectual status, that is silly.
My whole point was that the evidence continues to accumulate that an integrated picture of mental and physical phenomena is the most rational way to make sense of the world. In contrast, and as an inevitable counterpart to this, "Dualism", which never had much more than intuition and introspection going for it, both of which have been shown to be extremely unreliable guides to truth, has lost whatever status it had.
My point about Monism itself being outdated was probably not really fair, I was thinking that the whole philosophical environment at the time was just so primitive compared to the current understanding gained from scientific studies, that concepts developed and argued then were almost irrelevant, and I am reluctant to relate them too closely to the modern view which is just so much richer and more subtle than any philosophical or metaphysical speculation, even ones which seem to have been on broadly the right track. A bit like the way I am reluctant to give too much props to Democritus and his idea of 'atoms'.
That said, if anyone deserves credit for thinking clearly about the nature of reality, and transcending the dominant philosophies of his era, Spinoza is 'The Man'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Your whole grammarian example is silly. I've heard this before and it is just a justification for ignorance. The point of the story is that learning things that matter in your day-to-day life is preferable to book learning. It's the whole common sense trumps education" b.s.
You don't have to be highly educated in order to have a life of value. However, in order to discuss any of the issues you've brought up, you are going to have to have some knowledge of the subject. Otherwise you sound ignorant because you aren't saying anything that contributes to a discussion.
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to state here. If in your posts you are trying to assert that the asking of questions and coming up with answers that are not complete is good, ok. I can buy that. Please don't assume that there aren't true or false answers to some of those questions though. You'll cause yourself problems if you think all is grey and that black and white don't exist.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
I should've just titled this thread Fanatical Skepticism to clear up the confusion.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726#comment-204290
‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178
Yeah Bob. I think "the man", great Spinoza, the favorite of Einstein, and so many, is one the best philosophers to helping cure the "god of abe" idol worshipers.
It bothers me that many atheists think basic pantheism is a new age woo woo belief that the cosmos in it's entirety is "conscience and living with an origin and plan" , in the sense we humans think.
Damn communication breakdown. Words are hard .... But heck, I will always insist I am god, as all is god, as all is ONE. .... so god is "atheist", hee hee.
Everyone should know him, as comparative religion should be taught to the young. Some quotes here etc,
http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/spinoza.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=lpN&q=Quotes+Spinoza&btnG=Sear...
GEEZZ .... I'm tired of talking about religion, so thanks all you atheists.
Atheism Books.