Need Advice: How to throw off my Christian shackles?
Offline I watched Brian Flemming's documentary, The God who Wasn't There, after I saw him in Danny Ledonne's documentary Playing Columbine, and it has rang true for my experiences.
I was raised as a Fundamentalist Christian, just like him. It was my father injecting those beliefs into me at an age as young as 8, after he had divorced my mother, who I still live with. I had Mormons come to my house on a conversion plug, and instead of taking the bait, I used them as spokesman for the Deus as to why he would allow so much suffering in this world.
I am all but ready to jump over the proverbial fence, but I still live with my mother, who is both a Christian and a Republican. Fancy that combination, huh? But anyway, I need advice on a few things:
First, what is the best way to finally let go of the Christian Mythos?
Second, how do I embrace my intellect without having my mother be ashamed of my decision? I've seen her reaction to Gender-Confused kids, and that is one of the reasons I'm trying to make the jump over the fence.
Third, how did some of you manage to conquer your childhood fear and deny the Holy Spirit?
I thank you in advance,
Phlegethonic
Juke Joint Jezebel's coming to my Cremation.
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Your new realized sensibilities need not be mentioned to your mom for now. If you feel the need to discuss religion with her don't argue, just ask meaningful questions with no hint of insulting.
I was basically raised and atheist so I can't much help with your main question, but you've come a great site of lots of help.
Atheism Books.
Welcome aboard!
I really can't give you much advice other than to quote a little wise green guy: "Unlearn what you have learned." Do what you feel is right for you and what makes you happy.
People fear change and I'm sure your mom is no different than a lot of people when it comes to something that upsets their every day routine and beliefs. I'm lucky that I didn't grow up with religion, so, I'm not sure what else to tell you other than you aren't the only one who has ever gone through this and there's lots of others here with tons of knowledge and advice that should help out a lot.
Good luck and again, welcome aboard.
First of all, welcome to RRS.
Check inside "RRS Authors," one of the links on the left. I think Hamby has some articles on this topic.
Other than that, I don't think there is a "right" way to leave Christianity. Once you have personally reached the logical conclusion that it's all a bunch of fairy tales, the rest of the problem will automatically sort itself out.
Although, I think that one of the best ways to finally let go is to just reread the Bible. Except, this time, read it with a skeptical approach. Question what it says. Like this verse...
"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Be polite, but tell her how you feel. This will be difficult. On the other hand, if your mom will be ashamed because you chose to be rational, that's certainly not your fault.
So, how to cleanse yourself of all that fear tactic garbage.
Honestly, I was born in China, and I didn't even encounter strong religious beliefs until I was about 7 years old. I never lived in fear of the Holy Ghost simply because I never heard of it. Due to the lack of superstitious beliefs in my family and my general environment, I was an atheist by default; it might even be incorrect to say that my parents were secularists, since, at that time and place, religion was so unimportant that it was basically not even an issue. For me, there was constant discussion about the government (commie bastards), but religion didn't exist.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Marcus Aurelius
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Just to add to the good advise, and when talking with mom, you can re-define g-o-d as I and many do.
Check out the way famous philosopher, Spinoza g-o-d definition, which was Einstein's favorite, who's favorite "popular practiced philosophy" was Zen Buddhism .... buddhism without the nutty religious mysticism.
http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/spinoza.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
Google link for Spinoza Quotes
Here are some cool vid's to share with mom,
Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
"Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI
Neale Donald Walsch - Who is God - 5 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCeSlAvzvCQ
Neale Donald Walsch Discusses The Emotion Of Fear - 8 min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA4HwFHiYyA&feature=related
AND all THIS famous fun GUY's clever short vids , Pat Condell ..... but not for Mom yet.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=patcondell&view=videos
Oh yeah, read this to mom, From the world religions scholar wild Alan Watts
"The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and, "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ you and all are christ too, 100% god too ]
"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts ~~~~~~
Nietzsche's The Antichrist, by Travis J. Denneson Part 4 , IV. The Buddhistic Jesus?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/travis_denneson/antichrist.html
Why I Am Not A Christian, by Bertrand Russell
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
Jean-Paul Sartre - "Man is condemned to be free"; this statement by Sartre both in his major philosophical work, "Being and Nothingness"
http://www.nimbinaustralia.com/zenwatt/condemnedtobefree.html
...... And for some laughs, wise George Carlin stuff on religion, in YouTube
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Atheism Books.
Welcome aboard first and foremost. Many of us here were raised in families that had some sort of religious affiliation. My own conversion happened at the age of 18 at a point where my family was not actively going to church. Now the pendulum has swung the other way as my sister and brothers are all christians (go figure). So you have to realize the dynamics involved in family and how things tend to change. I hope your mother is aware that people can and often do change their beliefs.
What worked for me was to realize that god, if one exists, is probably not what the bible would describe. In my own life I came to accept that there may be some being out there somewhere that created everything, but it cannot be proven within a reasonable margin of error. The threat of damnation tends to keep most people from making the leap out of the pews. With this in mind I tried to invalidate the threat of hell by questioning what amount of "sin" would be needed to put someone into hell forever. I couldn't answer the question as a finite amount of wrong does not deserve an infinite punishment. The punishment could never be so severe that a "just" god would sentence the majority of it's creation to it. Therefore, if christians are wrong about this, what else are they wrong about?
Your second thought might be answered by using her own faith against her. If you know the bible fairly well then use her own words against her. The church doesn't follow what jesus would have taught, but some rather bastardized concepts that paul and others, like calvin and luther espoused. Hypocrisy is part of the christian mindset. Here in California we are getting ready to vote on Prop 8 as a ban to marriage of homosexuals, yet divorce on any grounds is perfectly ok. You see christians only want to pick and choose what works for them. For the time being I would not rock the boat as you might find yourself out of the house. There have been more than enough children driven from homes of christians that have not come to accept lifestyles of their offspring. You don't have to pretend to be a christian, but I wouldn't go overboard and rub her face in your atheism just yet until you can, if you have to, move on.
Lastly, I have come to believe that if god and the bible are true, which I personally do not believe, that what will be...... will be. If "god" created most people with a knowledge that they will burn in hell forever then it is not a god worthy of worship. If god exists and it doesn't get tired of hearing all the churches on saturday and sunday singing about how great it is then I want no part of it. I think Voltaire said, "a god worthy of worship, wouldn't want to be". If my destiny is hell, then I will either change my mind at some point or I won't. Hopefully this won't sound like I am preaching a cosmic version of fate, but if god is real and it knows your fate then you cannot change it.
There are a lot of really good people here that can help with your transition. It's really hard to break free sometimes. It took me almost 15 years before I could openly state that I was an atheist and now I am proud to be an atheist and have no qualms telling anybody. My new girlfriend told me that she had never talked to a professed atheist before and I nearly died laughing. However, we are pretty happy right now and we talk about religion a lot without it bothering her, so maybe your mom will come to understand to accept you for who you are.
Peace.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
How do you embrace your intellect, throw off Christian mythos, and rid yourself of fear of hell? Simple. Just realize how amazing the universe is WITHOUT any gods. My advice: Watch the entire series of Cosmos, by Carl Sagan. It is fantastic! Here's a link to episode 1. Seriously, take the time to watch the whole series. You won't regret it.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
Plegethonic, you would do well do stick around here, and read some of the interactions between the (sometimes insanely) smart cookies on this board and the theist (christian) apologetics that come on here. Some very good points are brought up by these board members that always have the advantage of being logically sound, and it reinforces the agnostic atheist/skeptic/critical thinking world view that one may like to cultivate.
And if you haven't already, learn the old critical thinking skills, because they is the shit.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
Ive been early raised as Christian, but not as a fundie and I had let it go while still being a child. My fear from Hell disappeared by reading about the world. Other sources of information presents a much more perfect idea of the universe, or even the afterlife. And if God is perfect, I thought, and He must be, when the universe is so complex, then there's no way how Bible and Hell can be real. They've got it wrong, there is so many things in the world, which Bible has no explanation for, or has a primitive stance towards them.
The Biblic faith is possible to sustain only if the world is seen as a crappy, mice-infested, flicked-together machine which God must fix by personal interventions all the time when it's running, but can't really keep up with the rate how it goes haywire. Literally, as it's the saying here, a fuck-up on wheels, or a brothel on wheels, literally translated. No wonder that Biblic God is such a violent maniac. This is how it's possible, that there are fundamental flaws in form of sin, Satan, Hell, and a hasty, not optimal solutions like throwing almost everyone into Hell, which is so unefficient, that they won't even burn there totally. Honestly, not even Pat and Mat would build such a world, their inventions actually works, somewhat. It appeared to me, that the Biblic version of the world doesn't really solve anything, just creates more problems with itself.
Ever seen an atom? That thing just forms itself together when it gets cold enough, can connect into real complicated systems with other atoms, and works for eternity!
If your fear from Hell is a deep imprinted habit you can't affect rationally, you could try to visit a psychologist's sessions to help you overcome that faster. People goes to the psychologist's for much more trivial reasons. I don't know why it isn't a natural choice of more newly deconverted people, they search for a psychologist's help in a fear from heights, insects, spiders, snakes and women, so why not the fear from Hell?
Btw, I love that quote of Marcus Aurelius.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
That's easier said than done, given that you're in a country heavily influenced by several Christian traditions. If it helps, I think the answer is "gradually".
That's a tough one if she thinks intellect = bad. I guess being curious has its disadvantages. But you may not be able to reconcile your mother's fantasy world with reality. That's a difficult thing to manage.
That's interesting. I've never seen the holy spirit actually do anything, so it's a difficult thing to fear. I mean, I understand the fear of the unknown, but have you tried walking under a ladder? It doesn't actually do anything. It's not a great idea, because the ladder could slip, but it has no magical effect. Breaking a mirror, Friday the 13th, the holy spirit - these are all things that won't affect you unless you let them mess with your head.
Here's a guy who went through a whole death curse ritual just to prove to everybody that it was nonsense. The world's largest democracy has the superstition that you can have a death curse put upon you, so in one sense, it was "brave" of the guy to do it. In another, the whole thing is hooey!
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
My suggestion for letting go of the Christian Myth would be to read some good books, or watch some good videos. You liked Brian Flemmings movie, so now watch some speeches by Sam Harris. Here's my favorite: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6734321991450996691&ei=f14LSc6bF4n0-wHk1YmiCg&q=sam+harris+believing+the+&hl=en
Or watch some debates. Basically, just take in more information to really understand why none of Christianity makes sense. This should hopefully open your eyes, make you feel more sure of yourself, and feel like a weight has been lifted.
Once you are more sure of your position on things, you will be more ready to talk to your Mother. Unfortunately there may not be an easy way to do this. Do some google searches on coming out as an atheist. I have read some articles that give a good progression on how to talk about it.
As for me, my mother was raised a God fearing Christian until she was in her 40's sometime and became a born again Christian and now is a 'personal relationship with jesus' type of Christian. One sunday morning when I was 19 or 20, I had just gone to bed at like 4am, and my mother wakes me up to let me know we're going to church. This was pretty normal for most sundays.
However, I had been thinking about it for a few weeks, and this sunday I wasn't going to take it. I was finally going to tell her that I was an Atheist and I just wanted to sleep instead. So she said 'get up, we're going to church'. I just kept sleeping until 10 min later she came back, worried we'd be late and again told me to get up. I told her I wasn't going to church and I was staying home. After all, I was over 18 now, and could make my own decisions. She didn't like this and basically re-asserted herself and mumbled something about needing to go to church for exactly this reason (because I didn't want to go). So finally I said "I don't even believe in God anyways, I don't want to go". She denied it in her head for the first few times I repeated what I said to her, but finally it hit her like a ton of bricks and she got very angry.
She said "What!? You're not an atheist. Come on, you're smarter than that..." We debated whether or not I was an atheist for a few minutes, and finally she started crying. The tears got to me and I shut my mouth and started getting ready for church. She basically forced me to come with her tears. She cried all morning, on the way to the church, a little during, and then afterward. After mass she went crying to the youth pastor and I had to then have a private meeting with him. Fortunately for me, he was pretty on the level about it and didn't try to debate me on the subject, only to understand why I didn't believe.
That was my last day at church. It was one of the worst days of my life. I had made my mother cry, I felt horrible. But it had to happen sometime, and I wouldn't take it back. I may have approached it better to ease my mom into it, but I wouldn't take it back.
This was about 6 years ago, and up until my recent debates with her, she would still use phrases like "you're smarter than that", and "you know deep down that you believe". I finally pointed these out to her in the right way to make her understand how discriminating she was being. So you may have to deal with some of this type of stuff for a while, but stand up... stand up.
When people "out" themselves, it is as varied a reaction from situation to situation.
I can only speak to my experiance. About 95 I realized I didn't believe, but DID NOT have the depth of knowledge I do now. It simply didn't make sense anymore, but I didn't know as much why.
With my mom she treated it like a phase. She loves me and has always been there for me, but still doesn't understand why I don't believe. I consider myself lucky because many parents if they found out would kick their child out of the house or disown them.
BE CAREFULL and take your time, don't push it. You know your parents and you know what they can or can't tollerate on any given issue, not just religion.
WE cannot decide for you what to do, other than no matter what, they still love you.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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As one who has gone through the process, I have some advise.
First read up on human evolution, specifically how we are just another member of the family of great apes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
Then watch some video on behaviors of our ape cousins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYpDgd29BAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaU6wqzjdWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako&feature=related
Then spend a few days observing people. Then realize, hey that's an ape walking down the street, there's ape driving a car, an ape typing on the computer, watch a porno of apes doing the deed, etc...
The stick your head in a church and realize hey there's an ape praying to an invisible god, an ape in fancy robes trying to turn a piece of bread into God, an ape singing to an invisible god, etc...
Then observe those apes driving like idiots, getting drunk, making insulting, threatening, ridiculous comments on Internet web sites. Then realize we ain't created in the image of God or have fallen into sin. We're just a bunch of damn dirty apes.
Hope that helps.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Increase global whining .... LOL , get pissed.