Hi, OM

I do not think there is any such thing as a law of cause and effect as you seem to be using that term.

Please define what you mean by "the law of cause and effect"

effects usually have multiple causes

some effects have no cause e.g. quantum effects.

There is only a material universe.

Consciousness is just a function of the brain analogous to digestion being a function of the digestive system. There is no great mystery about conciousness. What happens to your digestion when you die?

People have moral instincts resulting from evolution, which are based on survival of their genes via the survival of their offspring and the offspring of their relatives, tribe, nation, species, related species, and life on earth.

Spiritual things are impossible. You are not some magical demon called a soul possessing your body. You are your body, and if you think that you're something else (then what you really are) , then you have a serious mental problem. If you disagree, then please provide some evidence that spiritual things are possible.

 

 

OK. What do you mean by a form? Does it have a constitution? What matter is consciousness made up of? And how about the effects of causes that our thoughts and actions have necessitated? What happens to them after death?

 

First of all, there are plenty of animals that exhibit consciousness that have no brains. Second, my main point which you seem to have missed is, what are the effects of our conscious decisions and thoughts post death, if you believe that there are such phenomena that extend to what you characterize as a  product of matter (which is subject to cause and effect) once the brain dies?

Your conscious mind is almost certainly a manifestation of material effects, namely chemistry. We have evidence for this from various sources.

We know that drugs can affect short term consciousness. We know that blows to the head, transient ischemic attacks, and various other things can cause permanent changes in ones personality and consciousness. We can even monitor the various electrochemical induced pathways with the use of MRIs.

While this is not conclusive evidence of a purely material basis for consciousness, no evidence is ever conclusive. As there is zero evidence for a non-material origin or basis of consciousness, it is safe to say that material origin does seem to be the case. Your mind, your consciousness, is a product of a physical body, and deteriorates at the time of death. It doesn't appear to float out of your body and join some pool of energy or otherwise continue to exist on it's own. It appears to die, much like the electrical energy in a battery that looses it's energy.

 

Also missing the point. I agree that it is very likely that consciousness is a product of the brain, I am mainly talking about the effects of our thoughts and deeds. These are not necessarily all resolved at the time of our death - let us liken a thought to a bullet. What happens if a person dies while the bullet of their thought, or a repercussion to an action, is still travelling?

And the battery which has lost its energy has transfered it to another place. The electrochemical energy in our brains cannot "die", it can only change- or transfer to somewhere else.

Consciousness seems to be the effect of a process constituted of special patterns of interactions among the billions of neurones which make up our brain. Its a vastly more subtle version of a program running on a computer. When you switch off the computer, that program is no longer running. There is nowhere in the computer you can point to a process which was the running program - all you have is the static record on the hard disk which was used to initiate the program, and maybe some changed files generated by the program when it was running.

The pattern of interactions characteristic of a conscious mind simply loses its structure - then the interactions cease as the brain actually decays. There is no equivalent of the Laws of Conservation of Matter/Energy when applied to structured patterns - the pattern can simply disappear without trace.

There really isn't a Law of Cause and Effect as such in science.  There is the First Law of Motion, which states that a body will continue in its current state velocity unless acted on by a force.

Most events ('effects') are the result of a whole set of things, some relatively static, some changing, and when all these contributing factors ('causes') have a certain critical combination of values, some other event may be triggered (the 'effect').

Quantum events seem to occur completely at random, but normally within a certain well defined probablity distribution, so that over a large number of such events, the averaged effect becomes quite well-defined. The best example of this is that we are completely unable to predict when an individual unstable nucleus will decay, but the average rate of decay may very precisely known, allowing us to use it for radiometric dating, as in carbon-dating.

The 'cause' of that decay is that the intact nucleus has a slightly higher energy content than the decay products, so there is a tendency for physical systems to seek lower energy states. However, to actually emit the particle requires it to pass thru a slightly higher intermediate energy state, so it needs some sort of tiny nudge to actually decay. Its like a ball at the top of a ramp, with only a small ridge stopping it from rolling on to the slope of the ramp, and the whole setup vibrating in a random manner.

When we are talking about mental events, the physical model is not a useful way to analyse it, because what we see as one thought affecting another thought, perhaps in another brain, involves a mass of low-level physical interactions which don't really help us understand what is happening, in somewhat the way it is all but impossible for us to understand complex chemical effects such as DNA replication in terms of the interactions of the fundamental sub-atomic particles which make up the atoms which in turn make up the molecules that are interacting.

As we work our way up thru the hierarchy of structures in the physical world from sub-atomic particles to atoms to molecules to complex macro-molecules to living cells to multi-cellular organisms to animals to humans to human societies, we have to encapsulate the concepts of the 'lower levels' in more complex structures and processes whose properties are described in terms appropriate to that perspective.

The way the properties of quarks and leptons underpin human consciousness is such an immensely complex chain of interactions that it is utterly beyond our ability to analyse and understand in every detail, altho in principle we could simulate it on a powerful computer. We just have to adopt another set of descriptive ways of associating, in our thoughts, the 'matter' around us into larger complex entities.

Any series of events affected by some action you performed while alive and conscious will continue, and presumably the effect of your action can be followed forward, independently of whether you are alive or dead. The only difference if you are dead is that you will not be consciously affecting the course of events in any new way. If you wrote notes, instructions, a book, obviously they may continue to affect other people indefinitely into the future.

Glad we got that out of the way.

No real argument here 'cept of a bit of the good ol' ad hominem. Am I then dust after I am cremated? No. Read below.

Why stop there with gross generalizations? Earth is part of a solar system, which is part of a galaxy, which is part of a universe. This universe may or may not be part of a multiverse. My identity is multiverse. Furthermore, if we really were to look at this from a new age perspective, there's no telling what in kinds of places I've been incarnated in the past. I guess "from a new age perspective", I'm not "but a part of the Earth."

I thought you said we are the body? Anyway, identity cannot be "decided" upon. It is extremely large and complex. Part of my identity is everything I have ever thought, felt, done, what my capabilities are, the reason these things are the way they are, and much more, and it cannot be decided or comprehended a mere whim - as it already exists within itself. It is not arbitrary.

I only spoke of consciousness relating to the body.

Abstracts such as ideas, beliefs, knowledge, habits which exist independent of my body. Perhaps in the minds of others, or in  something  I wrote, etc.

Elaborate as to why you think this.

 

*sigh* By the way, you're ugly as sin.

By 75 mph, are you referring to the force generated by the car traveling at that speed? If so, yes, it survives, but in a different form, namely in the effect it had on whatever it hit, and the infinite chain of events which follows.

I agree. Just as with 75mph, consciousness is dissipated and transformed.

What Law of Cause and Effect? So far in this thread you've referenced the idea that to any action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, but that's not a law of 'cause and effect', it's Newton's Third Law of Motion.

Regardless, let us play the game.

To the first question: Yes. To the third question: Yes, until you can demonstrate the existence of an immaterial universe.

To the second: The relationship between the cause and effect would, by definition, be a causal one.

No, because the consciousness is not matter or energy. The consciousness, rather, is the interaction of matter and energy through time. You're looking at patterns of energy, no single one of which is consciousness itself. Consciousness is only the aggregate and continued progression from one pattern to the next, and when we die, the mechanism for forming these patterns alters, and no longer serves that function. Instead, our brains rot (even more than from watching TV!) and our consciousness ceases to be.

Note that neither the matter, which changes form as it is digested by the agents of decay, nor the energy, which converts to heat and dissipates into our surroundings, is destroyed. But our consciousness is neither of these things, and both the matter, and energy, are no longer interacting with one another in the manner required to create consciousness.

Think of a kaleidescope. As you look in and turn it, the small pieces at the bottom (matter) and movement (kinetic energy) interact to produce patterns. If, however, you smash the kaleidescope and scatter the pieces... while both movement and the matter of those pieces still exist, they are no longer interacting to produce those patterns.

You've cited jellyfish and other non-chordate animals as having consciousness without having brains. I'd posit to you that those creatures do not exhibit consciousness, no decision-making process whatsoever, but rather only stimulus-response behavior in much the same manner as single-celled organisms (with slightly more complex expression due to the size of the organism), and I would also remind you that while not having a brain, they do have nervous systems of one degree of complexity or another.

The energy remains energy, no longer in the form that made consciousness possible. It also remains not consciousness.

Same difference? Not even close. Consciousness is an emergent property of a system of simple interactions. The energy that makes that possible is not itself consciousness any more than velocity is itself energy.

Dissipate the energy or randomize the matter of the car, and 75mph is no longer there.

Dissipate that energy or randomize the matter and the consciousness is no longer there.

In both cases because the system it emerged from is no longer there.

 

OM seems to be ignoring BobSpence1's excellent points, so I will underscore them.

OM, you seem to have a misconception of modern materialism. You seem to think that it claims that only matter/energy exist. This is not accurate. In fact, this is the major reason for modern materialists switching to the more recent label of 'physicalism'.

In physicalism, we claim that whatever is discovered by physics to exist exists, and nothing else does, until later discovered by physics. So, what has physics discovered that exists? Well, matter/energy for one thing. But also space-time, fundamental forces (or interactions), and something called 'information'.

Information has a specific mathematical meaning in physics which I'm going to gloss over. Simply put, information can be thought of as the 'state' of the universe. Other concepts that reduce to information are structure, form, relation, identity, etc. One way to think about information that I find useful is 'physical relations between matter/energy in space-time'.

You see, while information requires matter/energy to be embodied, information is also independent of which particular body it may be embodied in. Think of an email. An email exists. It exists as a particular state/structure/form on your computer. If your computer gets destroyed, your email gets destroyed. No more email. The email does not exist anymore.

However, you can send an email over a computer network, and voila, now the email exists on someone else's computer. In fact, now there are two copies of the email. Does this violate energy conservation? No, because information is not matter/energy. Information can be created and destroyed. In fact, you can replicate information, such that where there was one, now there are two.

Not only that, but information can be embodied in different kinds of bodies. If I print out the email, now that email also exists on a sheet of paper as a particular structure/form/state of ink on the paper. It exists both on the computer and on the paper.

One outgrowth of the idea of information is a 'process'. A process is a stable transformation of information over time. Think of a computer program, running on your computer. You can start the program, and it will run until it terminates, it is a process. While it is running, it exists as a process. When it stops running, it no longer exists as a process.

Your concscious mind is a process. It is a stable transformation of information (your identity and experiences) over time. This process can only run on your brain. We are working on artificial intelligence, but so far, no luck. As of today, the only place that *your* consciousness can exist is in *your* brain. When you were born, your consciousness began existing. When you die, it will cease existing. Your harddrive will be formatted, so to speak. All information in your brain will be destroyed by decay. As yet, we have no way of preserving your identity.

However, in theory, it could be possible to replicate your mind into an artificial brain, a computer that runs the same process as a human brain does. In this way, you could continue your conscious experience in a non-human body. We're nowhere close to this, but it is theoretically possible given sufficient technology.

As for how our consciousness affects the world after we die: Of course it does. That's no surprise. People will remember me, and may attend a funeral or some other service in remembrance of my consciousness. Some of the software I wrote will continue to support the businesses I worked for. The garbage I created will continue to fill the landfills. Any children I might have had would continue to live their lives. Etc.

But my consciousness, i.e. my awareness of these effects, and my awareness of my own awareness, will no longer exist. That is because the only place my consciousness can currently run is on the brain in my head, and once that dies, so does my consciousness. Only if I'm lucky enough to live long enough to upload my mind into a computer would I be able to survive my biological death.

OK, bear in mind that dear friends of mine have told me that I possess the subtlety of a hand grenade. I should also mention that I lost my sense of humor in a tragic accident during a full contact chess tournament.  A team of neurosurgeons and Monty Python fans managed to replace it with one taken from  the lost & found bin at a local Walmart, but it has never worked quite right.  So, with that out of the way, here are my suggestions.

1. Singing kittens: In the same vein of the viking kittens singing Zeppelin's Immigrant Song, we could put together a  CG vid with kittens breaking the news to them with a catchy tune.

2. Offer them chocolate.

3. Shoot them in the leg first, letting the physical pain supercede the mental anguish.

4.  Have a stripper tell them during the act.

5. Indoctrinate them slowly, starting in early childhood, ala religion.

6. Cartoons: Something along the line of Veggie Tales.

7. Matrix style. Red pill=reality, blue pill=being slapped alongside the head. Repeat offer as needed.

8. Komodo dragon: Place them in front of a chained komodo, act as though you are going to release the komodo, and yell " Do you think you're going to live, mother******? Do you? Do you think your ******* consciousness is going to survive this? ".

9. Daub the back of their neck with a composite gel of ativan, benadryl, and haldol 15 minutes prior to telling them.

10. Promise to not subject them to hours of William Shatner's musical ventures.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

I hate it when that happens. I like this one. Kittens dancing about singing in falsetto "Disney-esque"  voices: "You're fucked! You're fucked! You're well and truly fucked! You're emergent from your meaty brain and when that's shot no-thing remains! You're fucked! You're fucked!"Worked for me.This one's promising.No, Cappy, we can't take this out of the RRS donations. Would you volunteer for the position? Bit late for that.Too cruel.I'm not sure Laurence Fishburn is available.I'm not sure... how do you pronounce "*******"?The information never gets there, but DAYUM what a nap.Like shooting them in the leg first, this one may cause unconciousness before you get around to telling them.

 

Hope this helps.