Conversation with my theist friend
Offline Hey Rationalists.
I'm Rational Rabbi, another Jewish-born Atheist. I was discussing religion with a friend of mine from Egypt (I don't know which religion) and a couple of things were very hard to discuss with her. There is no changing her mind but it's interesting in the way she thinks.
We first discussed how society gained morals and I told her that whether the bible exsisted or not, humans base their rules and regulations on the way their society functions. Although religion may have started it and contributed to the social status quo, it is in no way an indicator that you still have to follow it. After stating this, she continued to say, it is religion that has done this, so there is nothing wrong with it. We should follow it. What questions should I ask her or points I should tell her that might make her... think rationally? Have you had similar experiences with theists and what tactics did you use to get the point across.
Another very sad part was the we were discussing the afterlife and she insisted that there IS a heaven and hell. I stood my ground and said our body just decomposes and there is no "spiritual journey" our "souls" take. Then I asked her, so where do you think you are going to go? A tear almost rolled down her eyes as she said, "oh for sure I'm going to hell". I was in shock....I asked why? And she said, "I've smoked pot, I've lied, and I've fucked before....I just know im going there!" This truely broke my heart. I wish I asked her what kept her good in this world and why she isn't out murdering people because she's going to hell anyways. I care about her enough that I see the pain she is going through trying to accept the fact that she is going to hell. How would you handle the situation? What would you say? I know I certanly want to shake her silly and say, "EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS BULLSHIT!"
I think my biggest concern is that there is a war out there, and I hate to say it. It seems to be the Rationals vs the Irrationals and to think that we are losing sucks. Someday she is going to have children and teach them the very things that she learned. The last thing she said to me was, "all I know is to never follow things blindly". I looked at her and said, "but you are." She smiled at me and replied, "I know exactly what I'm following."
Help me to gather questions, sources of information, and engage her in a discussion. I knew religion brain-washes people and have been trying to make people thing rationally, but this really sunk in deep. I don't know what to do.
Think Rationally,
RationalRabbi
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Welcome to the hizzle! Well, if you find out which she believes in you can point out all the extremely immoral things (if it's the Buybull that evilbible.com site is a good start. ) Also point out all the absurd things.
A good source is HERE.
It has the Bible, Koran AND book of Mormon.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Hi Rational Rabbi! Welcome to RRS!
Religion has greatly influenced the laws in virtually every ancient society, but these laws have always been unconsciously derived from the morality that is inherent in every human being. Thus, the best ethical path to take has always been to follow our reason and instincts. We can conclude that most religions are false by the simple fact that they contradict our evolutionary moral compass. For example, have you seen the people holding signs that say, "God hates fags and shrimp?" They're very funny, and they make a great point. People who are against gay rights usually cite the OT to support their position, saying that God is against homosexuality. Yet, these same people will whine, "It's Old Testament," or claim that you have interpret the OT in the context of the historical period if you cite all the atrocities and ridiculous laws.
Clearly, there's some inconsistency here. Why do (many) Christians condemn homosexuality but not shrimp? Why do many of them condemn working on Sunday but not purifying houses with mildew the right way? As much as Christians might deny this, there is obviously another factor at work.
Unfortunately, although the two paragraphs above should suffice for any rational person, I've discovered that there really isn't a reliable way to get the point across.
I've had a lot of interaction online, but my face-to-face experience is limited. I would start by asking her why she believes what she believes.
Aw poor girl! Her beliefs might actually be on shaky ground. This is a difficult for her.
We have logic on our side, but religion has all the muffins and cookies.
*sigh* Yeah, this is pretty standard.
I think she's already beginning to question her beliefs. She just needs people that will support her through this time.
edit: Oh, I kind of assumed she was Christian. Well, you get the idea.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
People like this girl have a very imperfect notion of reality. For them, the world is like a fertile heap of dung on the God's cart pulled by two heavenly oxen, and the Sun is when God lights up a cigar. The Sun moves, because the cigar burns all the length to it's end. When you die, God takes you, and if you're good, he'll push you into the right ox's butt, which eats only a salvia, this is why it smells good there. If you were bad, he'll put you into the left ox's butt, which is always fed by a rotten cabbage, and it's a real hell in there.
So, try to show her some wonders of the universe. How the atom and crystallic structures are perfect, some neat Hubble telescope pictures, microbiologic cultures, natural means of survival, some really complex ecosystems like a coral reef, and so on. And then tell her, that God who invented all this can't be such a douchebag to put people in Hell forever for a petty stuff.
It was said by God, make love and procreate! So there's nothing wrong with sex. King Solomon, God's favorite guy, was a great fucksman and every night had a different woman in his bed.
The animals fucks all the time. They have a defensive and offensive mimicry, so they lie all the time. The pot is a plant created by God, which is meant to be smoked and 100-200 years ago it was completely normal in American country, the hemp grew everywhere, and was even prescribed as a medication to small children. Only the lobby of corporations who's interests were endangered by the plentiful usage of hemp, made a great public brainwashing, that it's harmful.
So make her learn. Education is the best protection against narrow-mindedness, known as Christianity. Even the bishop confirms it, here.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
This is a really tough one. I can't count the number of clients that I have had who are filled with fear and self-loathing because of their unshaking belief in religious dogma. It's really hard to treat. Basically you have two choices:
First, you can work within their belief system - this tends to work well at first. That is to say, when you ask questions like - do you think that god wants you to suffer? No? Ok, then how can you find a way to be OK with god?
This refers them back to their religion as a way of getting them to let go of their guilt and self loathing, but it does nothing to help them to question their basic assumptions.
I have a gay friend who is a man of faith. What I am doing with him is I am simply being very explicit about my own non-belief, and then whenever we discuss the anti-gay politics of the religious right, I gently remind him that GOD HATES FAGS, so why the hell does he keep on believing in this God crap anyway?
OK, so maybe I'm not always that gentle.
but the point is that what I am systematically working on is two things:
1) Presenting a rational worldview that gives the person an alternative to their faith-based sense of self.
2) Keeping them aware of the suffering that their irrational worldview is causing them.
#2 is not very nice, but it is important. The reason that people can maintain the crazy irrational beliefs that cause them so much pain is that human beings are VERY good at systematically ignoring the suffering they are causing themselves. This means that they create an identity that is founded on their religious in-group, and then they ignore the crazy bullshit that this entails, because adressing it costs them their membership in the in-group. What I think you need to do is both help them to come to terms with their suffering AND offer them a new in-group and identity.
I think that's the best we can do.