Airing dirty laundry & a question...
Offline I'm sure some people here have been through something like this, so I'm wondering what you guys did.
I was raised in a Mormon family. My whole family is still devout, except me. They know I'm an atheist and they know I had my name removed from church records, but they think it's just a phase or a joke or something like that. Anyway, my older sister is getting her 8-year-old baptized soon. My family wants me to be there.. nay, expects me to be there. The practice of baptizing kids makes me want to throw up so I can't rightfully bring myself to go to this baptism. I feel that if I go, I will be supporting a practice that I firmly disagree with. My family is incredibly upset that I won't go. It has gone to the point of constant arguments where they call me on the phone and scream at me for being so "selfish." When I had my name removed from church records I was "disowned" for several months (which I have learned is fairly normal for exmormons and their families), but then they "saw the light" and are trying to be accepting of my choice. I think they think if they are nice I will go back to the church and we will be an "eternal family" again (conversion by "niceness" and the such). I feel like this argument is more about my records being removed than about this kid getting baptized. If I go to this baptism I feel like I will be supporting the practice but also giving my family hope that I will "return to the fold."
I do not want to loose my family, but I also do not feel as though I should compromise my beliefs and morals. I already know I'm not going to go (I'm incredibly stubborn). However, I'm not sure if there is any middle ground which will make both sides somewhat happy and accepting. It infuriates me to no end that I might end up loosing family ties over some stupid belief.
I guess what I am asking is if anyone else has been through a situation like this and if so, what happened?
- Sarah
"I’m a polyatheist - there are many gods I don’t believe in." - Dan Fouts
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I sympathise with you on your family issue. I know the awkwardness of a theistic family all too well.
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
I've always been an atheist. My family has never been religious, we don't say grace, and only my mother occasionally floats from one hocus pocus flavor of the month to the next. So with the lack of any religion in our household, it was a real surprise when my older brother decided he wanted to become a mormon when he turned 18. He never showed any interest in religion before, so i'm under the impression that he was coaxed into becoming mormon by the attractive mormon girls he wanted to date. Sadly enough, the girl who converted him left him when he went on his mission... must have been her plan all along. Really, the mormons must train their girls to go out and seduce men into the religion and then drop the ones they dont like after they go on mission, happened to another guy a friend of mine knew! But I digress...
As part of becoming mormon, as i'm sure you know, he had to be baptized. Being an atheist, the whole ceremony seems foolish to me, and only more so when a young man is baptized. After thinking about it a bit, I did end up going and witnessing the baptism. It was just as foolish as I thought it would be, but I was there for my brother, and you have to have your priorities straight. For me, its Family first. My brother knows i'll be there for him regardless of what I think of his beliefs, and I feel the same way about him. Religion (or non-religion) shouldnt get in the way of that.
As far as any side effects, the mormons that were there then felt like I was free-game to try and be converted. And started showing up at my parents house more often to try and tell me about how jesus died for my sins. They stopped when I told them it wasnt for me... that was nice of them.
Wrote more than i expected to, but if it was me, I would still go.
There will be an after party but they don't want me there if I don't go to the baptism.
One of the issues that is bothering me about the whole thing is precisely that I don't think that belief or non belief should get in the way of family ties. I am MORE than happy to give my nephew birthday presents and congratulate him on his school work and play games with him. I realize this is a huge right of passage in my family and I'm willing to celebrate with them. Just because I don't want to be in that church shouldn't bar me from being part of my nephew's life. I don't have an issue if an adult or someone who understands what they are doing chooses to get baptized. My problem is that this kid is 8 years old and being asked to take his "eternal salvation" into his hands. I remember when I was 8, the bishop asked me questions about how it would feel to get baptized and how important it was to me and my eternal salvation. I was 8! I had no clue what the guy was talking about. I was just excited to be special enough to have a real meeting with the bishop. I knew all the adults would be proud and that's why I did it. The only real thing I can remember about the day is that I got to eat a big piece of cake after with a purple flower on it. An 18 year old will have a much broader scope of what it all means, even if they are doing it for a date. An 8 year old doesn't have a clue. In my opinion it's total persuasion. I realize it's important to my family that the kid gets baptized and I respect that. It's a HUGE right of passage (of sorts) to my family. I don't press my beliefs on them. I want to be there to celebrate this kids birthday. It just seems as though they are saying "your either with us, or your against us." There is no "I respectfully don't want to be part of this" clause. I am more than willing to peacefully coexist with people I don't agree with. I realize that agreeing to disagree is part of life. It seems like they are not willing to see things that way.
My family knows I would be there for them no matter what. It wasn't ME who rejected them when they found out my beliefs. I know this is incredibly petty for me... I am totally aware of that. It just doesn't seem fair that I should be accepting and supporting for them, but when I make a decision which was incredibly hard for me and, at the time, very scary they turned their backs on me. I'm not exactly sure why "meeting half way" is so foreign to many religious people.
My family knows I will always be there for them. I just don't understand why it's necessary for me to go to a church for them to realize that.
- Sarah
- Sarah
"I’m a polyatheist - there are many gods I don’t believe in." - Dan Fouts
A few months ago I would have totally agreed with you and not had much to say other than to offer you an e-hug... however, someone (hi, josh) recently gave me another perspective on this.
Is this baptism likely to have a real, lasting impact on this child? Or could you not be more effective keeping peace in the family on this occasion for the later opportunity to explain to the child why you do not hold a religious belief. Your protest of the ceremony might be more effective taking the second route... just something to think about.
My family are roman catholic...well not hardcore or anything like that.....heck more just cultural than anything else, I attended church rarely....like weddings a few christmas, and maybe one or 2 easters. Just like much of the rest of my family....heck my grandmother and great grandmother despised priests to the point of calling the vultures of society to their faces. However most of my family still baptize their kids, although none of them attend church, it's just a cultural thing, and even though I know it is pointless and a waste of time, I still attend when I can to be with family. With that in mind I agree with shelly, I would wait till the child can reason properly and if and when they ask, and they will ask at some point, explain to them why you don't believe. That's what I have done, as I am the most outspoken atheist in my family (thanks grandma
)
The only compromise I can see is if you show up, but show up naked in protest.
Also, pictures required.
But really, I don't know what I would do in your situation. I think I would probably go and be respectful but silently resent the whole event. That doesn't seem like a very dignified thing to do, so I really don't know. But the kid won't understand that you weren't there because you don't believe in the process, he'll just understand that you weren't there.
My Brand New Blog - Jesu Ad Nauseum.
God of the Gaps: As knowledge approaches infinity, God approaches zero. It's introductory calculus.
If I were you I'd go but definitely not participate in any of the ceremony. I have no idea what Mormons do for a baptism but the Catholic Church does a mini service. Some baptisms are part of a regular church service as in my original theist version the Lutheran Church. If you go don't participate. Don't knee, don't bow your head, don't sing, don't say any of the liturgy, etc. I have gone for family and friends to weddings, funerals and the like. I have a grandson that is 1 and I have no idea if he was baptized or not. Probably not though. I have never asked. My daughter is agnostic and though raised a catholic to my knowledge hasn't been in a church since her wedding 10 years ago. My ex-wife however is a practicing Catholic so it's possible she guilt tripped my daughter into doing it. When it may have occurred I was in Florida while they live in Colorado so I don't know. I also don't care if she did.
My sister and her family are all religious fundies. They always have invited me to their baptisms and other events and I haven't gone since I gave up belief. I also moved across the country at about the same time so it hasn't been convenient. One of her daughters is a missionary something I completely disapprove. I however never slam her for what she does. My sister on the other hand is open season. She and I have argued over religion most of our lives. Originally when she left the Lutheran Church for a fundie group and then when I converted to Catholicism when I was married. When I abandoned religion completely she argued with me then as well. This has not affected our relationship at all because we were always close. She deep down still thinks I'll go back a hope that will never happen. On the other hand I see she is a committed Fundie and will never give it up.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Given that morally and ethically you are sure that the baptism is wrong AND you know that your presence will just cause other problems as your family will feel you possibly may come back to the fold it would not seem like a good idea to attend.
I was raised in a religion that emphasized law and separation from the rest of the sinning world. My disbelief caused a lot of conflict until I disappeared for awhile. I had gone down to Mexico to live for awhile and simply did not call home at all for a good portion of a year. By the time I got back to the States and did finally call they were so relieved that I was not dead that the rest of the issues never seemed to get brought back up. Now, disappearing in another country may not be the right path for you.
However, setting up your own life and allowing a certain buffer zone of time and space between you and your family would probably be a good idea to consider. Having your family realize that you are an adult who is not only capable of running her own life, but that you will absolutely do so will help resolve this conflict.
I wouldn't count on being able to keep everyone in your life though. You know what their religion - the most important aspect of their lives - tells them about you and your sinful state. This is not fair and totally sucks. Religion is not fair. You may have to be one of those modern folks who create their own "family" out of a good network of friends. Do you have any other non-believing relatives? The Mormon families I've known have been large and they usually have contained a number of relatives on the outs for not going to temple. Can you band together with any cousins? Just a thought . . . Good luck with this. You do have my sympathy.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
Thanks for everyones reply and insight. It truly helps more than I knew it would to talk to people who can relate in some way, shape or form. I do have atheist friends locally, but none of them come from religiously "fundamental" families, so while they offer support... I don't think any of them have ever been in a church or can quite understand what it's like. That's not their problem. They are refreshing and, like it has been said here, have turned into more of a family to me than my own family at times.
I do feel as though me attending the baptism will cause more trouble than if I just don't go. I don't think anyone would yell at me for it, but I do feel as though it will make my family hope and probably think that I am "coming back" (which I am not!). I think if anything about this situation was different at all, I would probably go and not worry about it. The kid doesn't get it, but it's not really him I'm worried about.. it's everyone else who would see me there and start laying out my temple dress that night. My parents have been thinking I was "kidding" about my atheism since I started throwing the term around 10 years ago. My mother looks at me, eyes filled with hope, every time she mentions the LDS church still. The religion makes me want to throw up and I feel as though me, attending religious services, will just make me more angry and give my family an inflated sense of "maybe we really WILL see her in heaven when we die..." They don't get it.
Thankfully, my husband is an atheist, too.. so we find solace in each other and that helps a bit. Sometimes I feel like I am going religiously nuts. My family is devout LDS, my husbands mother in born again, his father is a wiccan and his born again sister is living with a devout muslim (I still haven't figured that one out)... Sometimes I just get fed up with the religious crap being thrown around all the time... so I come on here and rant, piss and moan. It helps me decompress.
Anyway, before this turns into a novel, thanks to everyone for reading my diatribe and giving me advice. It truly has helped me see this situation from different points of view which has helped me make a more logical and less emotionally charged decision.
- Sarah
"I’m a polyatheist - there are many gods I don’t believe in." - Dan Fouts
There are temple dresses? I bet they're not hot like Greek or Roman temple dresses.
What I don't get is that if all their wishes are fulfilled in heaven, why wouldn't they see you there? What's the point of saying something's "heaven" if you have that one thing that sucks (like, "Gee, I wish I could see my daughter. Too bad heaven is only almost-perfect."
With that kind of scrambling, they're a hair's breadth away from atheism. Sometimes people just want to believe that there's something magic. When I was a kid, I really wanted to be able to move things with my mind. Sadly, it never happened. But losing my faith in telekinesis wasn't all that traumatic. They'll survive.
Apparently, you're surrounded by a LOT of it. You even have a "temple dress".
That's good. I don't know if I'd be as level-headed in your situation. If I get even a little bit drunk, I start railing against people's invisible friends. It's not very social.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Good one Will, I missed that originally.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Well this depends on which you hold in higher esteem: Keeping peace with your family or standing up for your personal beliefs.
I personally would make my views known clearly to the family and politely refuse to attend the baptism. I had been attending the same church all my life, we rarely went anyway but when we did I enjoyed myself. When I rejected religion I cut off all dealings with my church I refuse to go with my family, even on Easter or Christmas, as well as refuse to say grace or offer other forms of tribute to their deity. If your family truly loves you they will accept your beliefs and opinions, if they do not and they shun you? Well they're not worth your time anyway.
"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
"Who authored the blueprints and made us captains?
Someone proclaimed creation, people listened
While children by the millions are thrown into this zoo
The so-called gift of clarity!
Oh what was God up to?"
If you go to a baptism then I think it is onlt fair that they go to a meeting of atheist/skeptics. Just something to keep in mind.