Evidence and the Supernatural
Offline In response to Caposkia's request, I've started this thread in the hopes that the conversation will actually progress somewhere.
The topic of this conversation is very simple.
- show me evidence for the existence of a spiritual world, basically, any world other than this one.
- evidence for the existence of a "soul."
- existence of some "creator" or "higher power."
etc.
I am pretty lenient on what is evidence: refer to a scientific journal with an article discussing evidence for the supernatural (even theist websites are okay, but it better be good. Not AIG), some aspect of nature or life that requires an outside force, valid philosophical argument, and even anecdotal evidence.
Oh, if I start seeing stereotypical, lame arguments like the fine tuning argument, every painting has a painter, appeal to fear or guilt, argument from morality, argument from faith, I'm going to be royally pissed.
I hope I have made this clear.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Warm fuzzy feelings count as evidence, right? I mean, everybody has had a warm fuzzy feeling about something at one time or another, so we know that warm fuzzy feelings exist. So it follows that if someone has a warm fuzzy feeling about god, then god exists.
Not enough for ya? Well, then here are several hundred more absolute proofs, each of them completely logical even though we all know how useless logic is.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Two whole minutes have passed, and you have yet to refute each and every proof , therefore god exists. Yay, I win!
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
And let's see what you've won! Promises of an afterlife in the clouds, all your enemies burning, freezing or being otherwise tortured forever, and all of your wishes and hopes satisfied!*
*offer only valid when deceased
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
*sigh*
As youth is wasted on the young, so is heaven wasted on the dead. I was hoping for a 12 year old single malt or maybe a gift certificate to Amazon.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Man, did you ever pick the wrong side of that argument, then. I'm pretty sure you were looking for the Christopher Hitchens office raffle by that description.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Alright, enough time has passed. I can be the killjoy now. I was hoping that you'd get a frothing-at-the-mouth response, but no such luck.
IF there were evidence ... if there ever were any piece of evidence ... then we would have evidence of something to explain. It would no longer be supernatural, but natural. We have a natural world, and things happen in it. The things that don't happen in the natural world ... don't happen.
I'm sorry, guys, Santa still doesn't exist. He doesn't see you when you're sleeping, and he doesn't know when you're awake or any of that other creepy shit.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Oh crikey!
What do I do now? I always knew the Lord was watching over me, but I wouldn't admit this fact because I wanted to continue watching porno. Is there any way for me to watch porno and avoid hell?
I'd estimate that about 0.1% of theists admit there is no evidence for their God, so I still contend that some idiot will turn up soon.
And this part, "He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sakes." That annoys the hell out of me. You'll get coal in your stockings if you're bad, but that shouldn't have any weight in the matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9IvCpiHxA
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Bring it on "god of abe", I will easily crush you.
CRI.org might be a good start. Note: not all Hank's extensive information is on the site, so you might have to request the paperwork on whatever specific information you want. Be detailed in your request.
Also note that part of learning about God would have to be a personal feat. Unlike most religious sects want to believe, I can't make you believe in God just because I showed you some information. It's something you'd have to accept and further persue.
Part of the Scientific Method thing I was trying to get at was I'd ask you to try some things for yourself to see if it would help you see. Is that feasable to request?
No, I don't mean pray for something specific and wait for it to happen or do a ritual animal sacrifice to appease his holyness so that he wouldn't shy away from you.
Understood... so not even a ritual repetitive prayer to reach nostelga?
Do not despair my child, for there is even now hope. The answers you seek rest in watching Jesus Porn. Might I suggest that you pick up a copy of Jesus Christ, Serial Rapist? Our Lord and Savior also has His very own line of sex toys. Just don't waste your seed on the ground. We need those children to keep paying us to build more churches! If nothing else, venture to Las Vegas and pay a visit to the Hookers for Jesus. They will be sure to leave you with a tingly feeling in your heart & loins as well as a blessedly empty wallet. What more could a mortal man ask for?
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
It's www.equip.org.
www.cri.org leads to Sage College.
Hank?
This guy?
http://www.equip.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2616123&ct=5466223
I've already lost most of my respect for this website.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
...And this is the crux of the problem with the 'supernatural'.
Let's say that, tomorrow, a team of scientists more or less conclusively verifies the existence of ghosts. Guess what? Now ghosts aren't supernatural anymore! They're just another part of the natural world to be studied and understood.
'Supernatural' is just another way of saying, 'Something I just made-up about the world that you'll never likely be able to prove conclusively wrong'. Unfalsifiable & unexplorable claims.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
"What dos 'supernatural' mean, really?"
"Means it's above nature."
"I know that. Jeez. I mean, what does being outside or above nature really mean?"
"Means not part of nature."
"Of for the sake of Pete. You've already said that, but what does it mean? What are the properties of 'outside nature'? How do you detect this place?"
"Well, if something happens outside nature, it's outside nature, see?"
"You're barking mad, do you know that?"
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
That's the conversation for sure. Continued:
"You can't possibly understand. It's supernatural."
"Wait, if I can't understand, how can you?"
"I have faith."
"In what?"
"The supernatural."
"So if I believe in something that doesn't exist in the natural world, then I can make the supernatural real?"
"No, it's still there, whether you believe it or not."
"How is that different from imagination?"
"Imagination isn't real."
"Riiiiiiight." (face, meet palm)
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
yea, that guy. I can't vouch for the opinions he expresses, but everyone's entitled to their own. The only reason why I referenced him is because when it comes to the more technical stuff, in my experience, he's done a bit of homework. Just know, just because someone has the right knowlege doesn't mean they hold an agreeable opinion. I've seen a few of his statements to be quite anal-retentive.
It's www.equip.org.
www.cri.org leads to Sage College.
You're right, my mistake. It's the Christian Research Institute, i forgot they updated it.
I guess I'd have to look back into my writings, but I'm pretty sure I never used the term "supernatural".
I think you'd benifit from reading "The New Atheist Crusaders and their Unholy Grail" Becky Garrison.
You're right, my mistake. It's the Christian Research Institute, i forgot they updated it.
The "right" knowledge? Do you mean "correct information" or "He agrees with me"?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Only if it could tell me how the New Atheism differs from the Old Atheism. Never understood that - is it just because some atheists are (finally) no longer willing to meekly let the theists run roughshod over human rights?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The fact that I've already mentioned I disagree with many of his opinions should have given you that answer.
He has the "correct information" from what I have seen when requesting information from him.
This forum's not about the book. See other forum
I only brought that up because you implied that there's "wrong (bad)" knowledge and "right (good)" knowledge.
And the sole basis of your determining the correct information is that he agrees with you, yes?
Information about the God of the Bible can't be researched credibly, can it? It winds up being "Which apologist agrees with more closely with my interpretation of the Bible?", doesn't it?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I read it, and I just wanted to vomit. It was like visiting the holocaust museum and really confronting the existence of total, degenerate, nauseous evil. It made me feel the same type of anger and loathing I felt when I had to read, for a class, some pedophile's explanation of why it was alright to rape little children for reasons that I can not even bring myself to write.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
Yup, it was pretty interesting.
- fooled by quote mine.
- believes evolution is beating ID because of emotional arguments and rhetoric.
- thinks ID "scientists" stands for reason while real scientists are underhanded cheaters. He's got it backwards.
- irreducible complexity
- fine tuning argument
Poor kids.
Wow, good luck with that.
I've already read several of his articles, and they're all really, really stupid, so I am rather skeptical about the validity of his resources. However, if you can link me to some, "correct information," I would happy to take a look.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
These words alone are sufficient to demonstrate that the speaker has no understanding of the relevant science whatsoever. This is completely fallacious. He is an intellectual black hole.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
No, it's not because he agrees with me.
Information about the God of the Bible can be researched credibly. Whether you want to believe it's real or not is another story.
Just as scientific fact has a "right" understanding, so does the Bible. However, just like science, not everything about the Bible is clearly understood, which leaves parts theoretical. The important details about who God is and Jesus as well as how to live a "good" life is clear.
I only referenced this site because if you ASK FOR IT, he has well researched information on particular topics. I never said anything about agreeing with his OPINIONS or saying that was the way a Christian should be. If this site honestly is that much of a problem, forget it, I'll look elseware for sources. It would help however if I had a specific idea in mind. I would like to note that there are many people out there that make atheists look bad even to another atheist. does that mean you disagree with their reasons for not believing???
I never said I agreed. You are all falling into a tangent on OPINIONS!!!! Let's stick with fact. If you care to find any, he's got some if you ask. I've already said I'll consider finding another source because it seems that people on here get stuck easily on the irrelevant. A specific idea to seek out would help.
and yet there are "real scientists" that are believers... hmmm. guess he does have it backwards.
- irreducible complexity
- fine tuning argument
no facts to back it up
I've already read several of his articles, and they're all really, really stupid, so I am rather skeptical about the validity of his resources. However, if you can link me to some, "correct information," I would happy to take a look.
I guess you missed the part where I said he does not have most of the information on his site. Most of his site is opinionated.
What happens if you ASK FOR INFORMAITON is he will send you in the mail an unopinionated, strait forward outline. From that information you can draw whatever conclusion you wish.