What happened to all the Theists?
Offline Back when ID was popular, Kansas was being besieged and the Right Wing was in power, we seemed to have no end of the arrogant bastards.
Now, it's the just odd troll that posts and runs.
Is Xinanity on the decline, or have they decided they can't win and so they run to the safe houses?
Also, where are the new Xian apologists? WL Craig is old-hat now and has been rebutted ad nauseum and there are only a few hangers-on of the Y.E. Creationist school.
It seems the strongest Xian apologists are the more Liberal Xians - you know, the ones that basically gut Xinanity of the important stuff and fill it in with New Age woo woo.
Any thoughts?
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
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They have not really gone anywhere. They got dealt a blow in the Kitzmiller case and they realize that the last arguments they tried are not going to work.
They will be back once they have figured out what the next invalid point they can crystallize their thoughts around looks like.
=
They just need a new 'Yee-Haw!' moment.
Remember in Star Wars: A New Hope, when Luke is about to bite it before he can send the torpedoes down the thermal ventilation shaft because Vader is right on top of him - and then Han Solo comes right out of left field ('What!?' 'YEE-HAW!') and saves the day?
That's a Yee-Haw moment.
The founding of the 'Discovery Institute' and it's advocation by real, accredited academics like Michael Behe was the largest Yee-Haw moment they've had in modern times; of course, then their back was broken at the Dover trial, and Stein's movie failed at helping them recoup the loss. Things might get interesting again after Dr. Scientist Kent Hovind finishes his prison sentence (I have a feeling he'll slip quietly into his goodnight, but we'll see), but like AIG has said - they really need a new original thought to get behind before we'll really see them rally again (or, at the very last, a flashy new rebranding of an old idea, like 'Intelligent Design' was).
I nearly shudder with anticipation to think of what the 'new' irreducible complexity analogue might look like.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I agree with both of you. As soon as they have a shiny new straw man they'll be back. They always come back.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
I get really irritated I hear people say the following:
"See! We have people with credentials. We must be legit"!
Yeah. So do we. Lots of them. Many more than you do. That's not the point. The point is that what these people have effectively done is wall themselves off from the bulk of the scientific community, ensuring that they will never be taken seriously in most scientific circles. These channels don't exist because we like red tape. They exist because the process has to have filtration to work. When someone does research, it's got a long gauntlet to run before it becomes well established. We don't do this because of stubborness. We do it because we have to. What Behe did was effectively circumvent this process when he published Darwin's Black Box, selling it directly to precisely the audience that would not be in a position to do that.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
It makes me wonder if he really buys into his own ideas.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I would think he's dishonest and realized he could make more money through bullshit than doing legitimate science.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
We certainly know his name, don't we? If he simply did good biochem research, we'd never know his name. And his books would never sell. And he'd get very few dollars for speaking at events and churches and whatnot.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Well I never left, but it seems you guys don't really care about theists that aren't christian.
That's not fair. Test us out. Spew your crazy and...
Wait, that's not nice. Here: Why don't you elucidate your particular brand of theism thus that we may take some interest in you?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
We tend not to get too torubled with people who are mostly just wish-washy deistic. I mean, in reality, what's there to argue about? You recognize the folley and foolishness of orthodox religion just as much as we do more often than not; the only difference is that you just really like the warm-fuzzies you get by pretending that a God is out there somewhere.
I can't exactly debate your emotions.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
LOL, I was just joking with you guys. I know y'all focus on christians because they are the most vocal and annoying(among other things) out of all the theists. Especially in the US. I'm cool with that. I just like to point it out from time to time that theists aren't just christians or think/behave like christians.
But to answer your request: I'm heathen, specifically Anglo-Saxon Heathen(ASH).
ciarin.com
Well then it's a good thing I'm not wishy washy deistic.
True enough, I'm not exactly pretending though.
So don't.
ciarin.com
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
^^ And that right there is a statement you need to back-up. ^^
Theodism proposes, among other things:
* That burnt offerings have a tangle effect on the 'Sacral Kingship'; the Gods' offerings of Luck, Might and Main. Please provide evidence to substantiate this proposal.
* That the community leader is an intermediary between the Earthly realm and the realm of the Gods. Please provide evidence to substantiate this proposal.
* That the Gods / Goddesses of the Norse Mythology are, in fact, real and existant entities. Please provide evidence to substantiate the proposal that Odin leads a phantasmal 'hunt' across the sky which is the cause for fog (as well as a potential hazard for being carried into the Land of the Dead), that thunderstorms are caused by Thor, and that giant wolves (such as Fenrir) and giant hominids (such as any number of Giants/Giantesses) ever existed.
If you can't do the above, or shift goal-posts by claiming that the stories were allegorical but the deities are still real, then yes - you are just pretending.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Have fun with that. Here's a good site: http://fyrnsidu.org
Also, I think you'll probably enjoy this comic: http://thepaincomics.com/weekly041229a.htm
ciarin.com
It's just belief in Norse mythology, Thom. Thor, Odin, Jormungander, Hel, Fenrir, Tyr, etc.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I'm not Theodish.
ciarin.com
Not exactly, but it's similar. It's more like Woden, Thunor, etc. But yea you got the gist.
ciarin.com
It is not 'similar'. 'Woden' is the same deity as 'Odin'; the phonetics have merely changed. The same is true of 'Thunor'/'Thor'.
Look it up for yourself.
Also, you certainly are Theodish if you claim to be Anglo-Saxon Heathanistic. Theodism is simply the North American synonym for your religion (...though Theodism now is also a little more encompassing, referring to your myths as well a variety of other variets of neo-Germanic orthodoxies).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I have.
When the Saxons migrated to the British Isles this separated them from the rest of the pan-germanic mythology. And differences naturally occur. For example, in Norse mythology Tyr has one hand, because he gave it up to Fenrir. In Anglo-Saxon mythology Tiw(Tyr) has both hands. We also have not been able to determine if the Anglo-Saxon Woden had a missing Eye like the Norse Odin. Also because the Anglo-Saxon lived among the celtic tribes(Cymric, Pictish, etc) some of those beliefs/traditions have merged.
I know the Anglo-Saxon and Norse myths are similar since they originate from the same culture, but they are not the same, and neither is the belief system attached to those myths.
Not exactly. While Theods are certainly ASH, not all ASH are Theods. Some of us do not adhere to the "sacral kingship" and "thralldom". Many of us do not believe in recreating a tribal/feudal system of heirarchy. Theods tend also to be focused on historical accuracy, while some of us like to merge modern thinking with historical tradition.
Here is a FAQ I have on my site concerning Fyrnsidu(ASH):
http://neheathen.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=37
ciarin.com
Wait! I take it back! I should have run with my instincts and finished my initial request. Here, let me correct myself.
Spew your crazy and we'll scrutinize it just like all that Christian (and recent Muslim) crazy we scrutinize.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
I'm not going to haggle over the details of the figments of your imagination.
You never bothered addressing the issue:
Do you believe in a literal being known as Tiw and/or a literal being known as Woden? And are they responsible for natural phenomena?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Well I think it helps if I'm accurate so we can communicate effectively. What, specifically, would you like me to elaborate on so that you may scrutinize my irrational beliefs?
ciarin.com
No need to haggle, just don't mistake my beliefs for another's.
Sorry, I hadn't realized there was an issue I needed to bother with.
I do, and partially.
Would you all prefer to start a new thread about this or would this derail be fine?
ciarin.com
Let's be honest; 'making fun of' is going to be the more honest term to 'scrutinizing'.
Belief in deities that make thunder/lightning/fog is not a justifiable position in modern times.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I know(I get that a lot). But at least it's not christianity. LOL amirite?
ciarin.com
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
I think I'll be committing myself... wait, this is Canada. (Kevin should get that.)
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Let me ask you this. Do you guys prefer arguing with christians?
Hm. That's a good question.
Personally, I think I do. Christians appear to be the most self-assured and easily the most bigoted. When there is a significant population of an orthodoxy that believes every word of their theistic canon to be the absolute, unassailable word of a supreme being, there's a real problem. By choosing to actively attack science, Christian & Muslim creationists have effectively crafted a situation where arguing against their religion is a worthwhile enterprise.
I'm game for any JuJu, though - Norse/Germanic/Saxton polytheistic Gods included.
I'll make a seperate thread for that discussion.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Me? No. I don't prefer to argue with any particular theists. In fact, I like it when people already agree or if there's to be an argument, it can be settled. I'd happily argue with you. It's not as though you're going to get farther than the Christians. Unless, can you provide me with evidence of your god(s)? Or coherent definitions?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Probably not going to happen. I mean, if anyone could prove the existence of the ASH pantheon there'd be a lot more heathens I would think. What definitions would you like?
ciarin.com
I prefer to go after Christards for the dual reasons that
A. They are by far the most numerous of any religious people in my area
and
B. They tend to try to force their beliefs on others through force of law.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Do you guys get many islamic or jewish posters? how do you like debating them?
I think there's a fair number of Muslims. I have yet, however, to encounter a Jew.
Hi.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
There's only one Muslim right now - at least 1 was banned a while back. To my knowledge theirs never been a religious Jew in the forums - though there was one once debated on the show. Then there was that wacky chick that believed in something weird that got banned a couple weeks ago.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
How about scientologists? Any of those ever come here and debate?
I wish.
Scientologists tend to keep themselves shut-in, away from the rest of the world. It's part of their doctrine - keeping 'Suppressive Persons' out of their earshot so we don't 'poison their minds' and prevent them from 'Going Up the Bridge'.
I pity those that have been indoctrinated into Hubbard's MLM Scam. I really do.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
"If you can make any religion of the world look ridiculous, chances are you haven't understood it"-Ravi Zacharias
Given that all religions are crazy, which one do you think is the craziest to debate?
The Christards. They really believe that insane shit including the insane laws of Christianity (of course I haven't had much experience with moslems. )
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Good God. I just finished fucking my blow-up Jesus doll through His stigmata ("Authentic Bleeding Action!" ) I was "arguing" with him the whole time ("Who's real now, Bitch?!" ), until I kinda broke Him at the seam. Now I've gotta get some Krazy Glue or something to patch him up.
I'm kinda wasted right now, but I thought I'd say: I'm really fuckin' enjoying life. I know this is the only one I've got, and by Grapthar's Hammer, I'm gonna enjoy the fuck out of it. 'Cause when you're dead, you're fuckin' dead. No do-overs (take that, reincarnationist Buddhists!), no afterlife (which is not like afterbirth, as I've discovered, much to my chagrin), and no heaven nor hell.
Religion can piss off. I've no axe to grind, no anger, no real enmity. There are some Christians I rather loathe (yeah, I'm looking at you, Pat Boone), but there are some Christians of whom I am very fond. So it all works out in the wash, except the whites keep coming out pink, thanks to that Realistic Blood of the Lamb.
Aaaanyway, I just thought I'd say, if Christians can't take a little bit of mockery, then they should stop talking fucking smack about atheists. Because we're smarter, we're more directed, and we don't get all passive-aggressive. We go straight for "aggressive."
Oh, and Jesus is a pussy. Thor'd kick his ass in a barfight, and Loki'd curb-stomp him in a spelling bee.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
haha lol
You must be referencing Arj. What's really funny is that even after debating with her throughout multiple threads, I still have no idea what she actually believes. She simply refused to tell us.
I suppose you'll have to expand on the guidelines for what is "craziest." Although, I think debating Scientologists would be immensely interesting. All you have to do is mention what their beliefs are and they'll be lying and making threats for the rest of the discussion.
What happens after we die?
What is lightning, how is it produced, and where does it come from?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
At this point, I'll take any kind of fresh meat - even if it is stringy and tastless... hahahaha (no offense - just a metaphor gone awry)
How does someone become a Theist without a religious text?
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
I don't know what happens after you die. Unless you have a will stating otherwise, you could be buried, cremated, etc. For many heathens, the tradition that we are trying to reestablish is the funeral pyre. A lawyer(who happens to be Asatru) has determined that we can legally have a funeral pyre, we'd have to get certain permits though. Also, some heathens(who can afford it I guess), would like their funeral pyre to be on a ship which is more traditional. I don't know if that can be done legally though, at least in the US.
But since modern heathenry is so new, I don't think anyone has done the funeral pyre yet. So mostly I think we just get buried or cremated.
From wikipedia:
"Lightning is an atmospheric discharge of electricity, which typically occurs during thunderstorms, and sometimes during volcanic eruptions or dust storms."
There are several hypotheses on how lightning forms. One is polarization mechanism hypothesis, another is electrostatic inducition hypothesis.
Lightning comes from any electrical field that is strong enough to discharge.
ciarin.com
I don't know, maybe they're deist?
The religious texts we use are the eddas, bede's writings, and the sagas.
ciarin.com
FTW!
Yeah, but Jesus would get to be class president.
As an aside, this thread is now far too silly for an AvT post. I'm not so certain it actually exists as such.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940